Illegal orb?

[Schatzi Timmerman]

@Vanessa Linden @Linden Lab

First off, apologies for posting this here. I tried to file an AR the right way, but the AR's require an offender name and frankly, didn't offer a summation choice of my problem. I was flying over Bellisseria until I was shot down by a security orb, no warning at all.

"Can't move object 'MD 900 Explorer v1.1' to
{ 99.506, 187.625, 200.56 } in region Comfy because your objects are not allowed on this parcel" and "You have been teleported home by the object 'Mint Home Security System V1.9.0' on the parcel 'Abue Home Chuche'" Absolutely no warning was offered, as is the norm (usually 15-30 seconds). I can clear airspace in times offered with no problems. But to state "your objects are not allowed on this parcel" is straight up wrong, seeing that it's still Linden land and not a private region.

Apparently, someone has taken upon themselves to choose what can be flown here. Who decides what product is allowed or not allowed in Bellisseria? Again, they gave no warning at all.

I was flying above 200m and attempting to reach Whiskey Bay. I broached the matter in Bellisseria chat and was encouraged to file a report.

Yes, I am aware this is a member to member forum and Lindens don't check here on a regular basis, but as I mentioned, the abuse tab didn't offer the right choice (closest was 'Land>Encroachment>Objects or Textures').

[Theresa Tennyson]

25 minutes ago, Schatzi Timmerman said:

@Vanessa Linden @Linden Lab

First off, apologies for posting this here. I tried to file an AR the right way, but the AR's require an offender name and frankly, didn't offer a summation choice of my problem. I was flying over Bellisseria until I was shot down by a security orb, no warning at all.

"Can't move object 'MD 900 Explorer v1.1' to
{ 99.506, 187.625, 200.56 } in region Comfy because your objects are not allowed on this parcel" and "You have been teleported home by the object 'Mint Home Security System V1.9.0' on the parcel 'Abue Home Chuche'" Absolutely no warning was offered, as is the norm (usually 15-30 seconds). I can clear airspace in times offered with no problems. But to state "your objects are not allowed on this parcel" is straight up wrong, seeing that it's still Linden land and not a private region.

Apparently, someone has taken upon themselves to choose what can be flown here. Who decides what product is allowed or not allowed in Bellisseria? Again, they gave no warning at all.

I was flying above 200m and attempting to reach Whiskey Bay. I broached the matter in Bellisseria chat and was encouraged to file a report.

Yes, I am aware this is a member to member forum and Lindens don't check here on a regular basis, but as I mentioned, the abuse tab didn't offer the right choice (closest was 'Land>Encroachment>Objects or Textures').

Stand outside the lot and attempt to locate the orb. Right click it and go to "Report abuse." That will automatically fill in the owner's name. For the category, try "Disturbing the peace > Excessive scripted objects."

The "your objects are not allowed on this parcel" is from the lot having object entry turned off, which is a standard setting available almost everywhere, including Bellisseria.. Normally a vehicle with a seated avatar is exempt from this setting but the orb unseated you and therefore the now-empty vehicle was returned.

[animats]

Found that. Filed AR:

Shoots down aircraft.
Teleports home anyone entering parcel.
Discussed on forums.
Mint Home Security System V1.9.0

I tried "assault", since pushing on safe territory is considered that. Teleporting people home is not allowed by the Bellessaria covenant.

Help keep Bellessaria clean of anti-aircraft weapons!

Edited September 11, 2020 by animats

[Schatzi Timmerman]

Thanks for the info, BTW. I filed an AR as well.

14 minutes ago, animats said:

Found that. Filed AR:

Shoots down aircraft.
Teleports home anyone entering parcel.
Discussed on forums.
Mint Home Security System V1.9.0

I tried "assault", since pushing on safe territory is considered that. Teleporting people home is not allowed by the Bellessaria covenant.

Help keep Bellessaria clean of anti-aircraft weapons!

 

[Garnet Psaltery]

The orb was not acceptable for Bellisseria but was it necessary to identify the particular parcel in a public forum? 

[AlettaMondragon]

3 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

The orb was not acceptable for Bellisseria but was it necessary to identify the particular parcel in a public forum? 

Oh, just don't come with that they have their right to privacy while they're breaking rules. I'm not all happy about things like this either, but at least this way more people can report it. People have to learn that their actions have consequences, and they have to take responsibility.

Also, if the owner of the parcel continues to keep an orb there which breaks the rules, it's possible that it won't be their land for much longer.

This behavior with the orbs, and the several other kinds of abuses on all Bellisseria, Mainland and a few larger private estates just make people like @Patch Linden, @Kristin Linden, etc have more work to do, but actually it might be the poor enforcement of the rules in some cases that allows people to continuously break the rules.

(I could show interesting examples, like how a sex club can show in search as General rated content for months despite being reported several times, or how a waterway can be blocked entirely for several months while being reported, but I'm not keen on making those public. Yet.)

At least removing such "illegal" orbs on Bellisseria usually goes pretty well. This reminds me to check back on the one from last weekend...

[Garnet Psaltery]

1 hour ago, AlettaMondragon said:

Oh, just don't come with that they have their right to privacy while they're breaking rules. I'm not all happy about things like this either, but at least this way more people can report it. People have to learn that their actions have consequences, and they have to take responsibility.

Also, if the owner of the parcel continues to keep an orb there which breaks the rules, it's possible that it won't be their land for much longer.

This behavior with the orbs, and the several other kinds of abuses on all Bellisseria, Mainland and a few larger private estates just make people like @Patch Linden, @Kristin Linden, etc have more work to do, but actually it might be the poor enforcement of the rules in some cases that allows people to continuously break the rules.

(I could show interesting examples, like how a sex club can show in search as General rated content for months despite being reported several times, or how a waterway can be blocked entirely for several months while being reported, but I'm not keen on making those public. Yet.)

At least removing such "illegal" orbs on Bellisseria usually goes pretty well. This reminds me to check back on the one from last weekend...

Witch hunts aren't wholesome.  It's possible the owner didn't realise what was required, but whatever the reason it is a matter for the Governance Team.  Tagging Lindens won't lead to this person being evicted to please you.  By the way, the orb was gone before you posted.

[Anna Nova]

1 hour ago, AlettaMondragon said:

Oh, just don't come with that they have their right to privacy while they're breaking rules. I'm not all happy about things like this either, but at least this way more people can report it. People have to learn that their actions have consequences, and they have to take responsibility......

Don't get me wrong, ARing the parcel is what I would have done.  I've done it many times while flying over Belli.

But everyone gets the chance to defend themselves,  and learn from their mistakes.  It's the Governance Team's job, not yours  (or mine).

Yes, people have to learn that their actions have consequences, but not by being strung up by lynch-mobs, or the virtual equivalent.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Anna Nova
correcting insane English grammar and spelling mistakes.

[AlettaMondragon]

24 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

Witch hunts aren't wholesome.  It's possible the owner didn't realise what was required, but whatever the reason it is a matter for the Governance Team.  Tagging Lindens won't lead to this person being evicted to please you.  By the way, the orb was gone before you posted.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any pleasure in accidentally running into abuses every day in SL when I step out of my home sim (or even without it, when people bring them to my attention). Neither do I have any pleasure in trying to reduce the amount. I only have pleasure in NOT running into issues. I don't have to tag Lindens here to get more results either. They've already read my point about the enforcement of their own rules. Mostly, the reason for the tagging here was that the actual Bellisseria Covenant and a reminder of it were posted on the forums too, and the topic is relevant.

Oh, I have to outline this better:

24 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

this person being evicted

I couldn't care less whether someone gets "evicted" or not. Once the issue is gone, it's gone, I don't believe in warnings/suspensions, actually. Those that break rules again and again, don't believe in them either. It is indeed up to the Govs and the people in question to care about those things.

It's great the orb was already gone, at least I don't have to look up that sim on the map

Edited September 12, 2020 by AlettaMondragon
missed a point that needed an answer

[AlettaMondragon]

51 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

Yes, people have to learn that their actions have consequences, but not by being strung up by lynch-mobs, or the virtual equivalent.

I always considered people reporting abuses (not only in SL but other virtual platforms as well) as witnesses contributing to the resolution of a case, if they witnessed a crime. There is nothing wrong with it, it's only a few people that are against it, for obvious reasons. If you come to a platform like this forum, though, and say "Hey, I found this thing here, and it has to be reported, everyone go and report it now!" I would say myself it is absolutely wrong. That would be quite the lynch-mob attempt. Since the OP didn't say this at all, it definitely wasn't the intention of the topic. However, by allowing us to see where it happened, if anyone really wanted to go and see it for themselves, they could, and nobody suggested to do so, so it's just their own idea - like mine was to even mention it.

Consequences are sometimes different from what we would expect or find ideal, so there are plenty of ways to interpret what I said about them. In the particular case of orbs that don't comply with the rules on Belli, I just find it sad that some people simply fail to read the rules, which were, in fact, pushed into their face, in a good belief to remind them about their existence, instead they bring their habits from Mainland and isolated private sims, and their poorly made orbs (which would work properly if they cared to set them up properly). Maybe the only way to cut back on this tendency is to really disallow third-party orbs, but there are a few really good ones, so that would be a great disadvantage to those that are able to use them properly, and are the majority.

So the proper way to deal with these issues is definitely filing an AR if you bump into them, then again if you bump into them again for whatever reason. Other than that, I think bringing the actual issue here to get to know more how to deal with it, and raise awareness of it in general isn't a bad thing, sure, you don't have to put a target marker on it to do so, but I don't think it can do any harm either.

It's a fact though that one AR by one person doesn't bring any result to any violation, unless it is so serious and explicit that they take it as a priority (like "age" cases, and most of maturity ratings related things). Which means, the more, the better.

Edited September 12, 2020 by AlettaMondragon
replaced keyword with "age" due to nonsense filter

[iceing Braveheart]

in real life you never own the sky above your land second life should be the same then they wouldn't be allowed to destroy the mainland for everyone piloting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_pilot

ban lines take care of security and there is a ban list for grieffers if land owners did not own the sky and only owned the land then they could not have security orbs instantly kick and ban everyone from mainland continents while anyone was piloting aircraft's of any kind

only con is sky box's but it would be a simple solution to fix mainland they could allow for a certain part of the sky to be owned for sky box's but not all of it and attempt some form of fix band aid of some kind then you would only have to watch your altitude while piloting if there was free space in the sky a safe zone for pilots

[AlettaMondragon]

24 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

only con is sky box's but it would be a simple solution to fix mainland they could allow for a certain part of the sky to be owned for sky box's but not all of it and attempt some form of fix band aid of some kind then you would only have to watch your altitude while piloting if there was free space in the sky a safe zone for pilots

 

This is actually covered in the Linden Homes 2 (Bellisseria) estate covenant, which considers the airspace between 400 and 2000 meters altitude for aircraft to pass freely. They covered this by "Skyboxes are only allowed above 2000m" and "Effective range [of security devices] cannot include the airspace between 400m and 2000m (to allow for people to fly overhead but not in the airspace where skyboxes are allowed)". So as far as the rules go, when you're flying through Belli between 400 and 2000m, you should be able to do so without even getting popup messages. Of course, reality is a bit different, but not so bad.

This only applies to Bellisseria though, and not to Mainland, as Mainland doesn't have an explicit policy on skyboxes and security devices. There is a variety of ways to troll / harass / grief someone on mainland, so basically the more security you can get is the better, I actually can't blame people for having banlines and 0s orbs if they think they need them. After all, they might still not be enough if someone targets them, which is really disturbing to even think of. Regarding the skyboxes and random clutter in the air (hm, air pollution?), it would be really great to have similar policies, but it still wouldn't do much. Many of the parcels where these occur are owned by people that haven't logged in to SL since like 2010, and also if their lands are set up open for everyone to rez and keep objects at, the junk and small skyboxes are usually owned by random people and squatters. Simply making rules wouldn't change things magically.

[Garnet Psaltery]

3 hours ago, AlettaMondragon said:

 

Mostly, the reason for the tagging here was that the actual Bellisseria Covenant and a reminder of it were posted on the forums too, and the topic is relevant.

[...]

It's great the orb was already gone, at least I don't have to look up that sim on the map

1) The topic would be even more relevant in the Linden Homes section.   2)  You don't have to do anything, but you could perhaps actually AR those trespasses you have noted but not made known to the GTeam.

[AlettaMondragon]

2 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

1) The topic would be even more relevant in the Linden Homes section.   2)  You don't have to do anything, but you could perhaps actually AR those trespasses you have noted but not made known to the GTeam.

1) It isn't my topic, so I can't help with that.

2) Let me know what I have to do.

2/A)  I don't even know what trespasses you're speaking about, but I guess this is where it's pointless to even ask, because you just want to attack me for my opinion. Have a good day.

[Garnet Psaltery]

3 hours ago, AlettaMondragon said:

So the proper way to deal with these issues is definitely filing an AR if you bump into them, then again if you bump into them again for whatever reason. Other than that, I think bringing the actual issue here to get to know more how to deal with it, and raise awareness of it in general isn't a bad thing, sure, you don't have to put a target marker on it to do so, but I don't think it can do any harm either.

It's a fact though that one AR by one person doesn't bring any result to any violation, unless it is so serious and explicit that they take it as a priority (like "age" cases, and most of maturity ratings related things). Which means, the more, the better.

1)  How many 'issues' do you suppose would fit in this forum if everybody brought all the ones they knew to it?  2)  You can't know for a fact that one AR never has an effect, unless you're claiming to be a Linden.  Are you?

[Garnet Psaltery]

5 hours ago, AlettaMondragon said:

(I could show interesting examples, like how a sex club can show in search as General rated content for months despite being reported several times, or how a waterway can be blocked entirely for several months while being reported, but I'm not keen on making those public. Yet.)

At least removing such "illegal" orbs on Bellisseria usually goes pretty well. This reminds me to check back on the one from last weekend...

 

2 minutes ago, AlettaMondragon said:

1) It isn't my topic, so I can't help with that.

2) Let me know what I have to do.

2/A)  I don't even know what trespasses you're speaking about, but I guess this is where it's pointless to even ask, because you just want to attack me for my opinion. Have a good day.

1) You could report the post and ask to have it moved.  2)  Do about what? You are your own decision-maker.   3)  See the quotation at the top.  I took you to mean you had some ARs not yet submitted.  Of course, if I'm mistaken you can easily clear that up.  I am not attacking you, simply engaging you in discourse.  This is a discussion forum.

[AlettaMondragon]

1 minute ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

 You can't know for a fact that one AR never has an effect, unless you're claiming to be a Linden.  Are you?

 

As I said, you're attacking me for my opinion.

If you're so interested in how to know, go, report an abuse, which is really an abuse. Wait a week. Go back where it was (if it wasn't elusive like seeing a naked avatar with genitalia in a G rated infohub), and see if it's still like before the report. If not, it's 50/50 it was due to the report or not. Simple. You don't have to be a Linden to know what they do (or not do), you don't even have to be interested in what they do to know what they do. What's more, you don't even have to report a spectacular abuse yourself, others will do it eventually, and you can still see the result. It doesn't have to be "for a fact" that a specific Linden did something in particular, when it comes to abusive security orbs, encroached objects, etc. If they are suddenly not where they were, that means they were removed. And that is what matters.

[Garnet Psaltery]

7 minutes ago, AlettaMondragon said:

 

As I said, you're attacking me for my opinion.

If you're so interested in how to know, go, report an abuse, which is really an abuse. Wait a week. Go back where it was (if it wasn't elusive like seeing a naked avatar with genitalia in a G rated infohub), and see if it's still like before the report. If not, it's 50/50 it was due to the report or not. Simple. You don't have to be a Linden to know what they do (or not do), you don't even have to be interested in what they do to know what they do. What's more, you don't even have to report a spectacular abuse yourself, others will do it eventually, and you can still see the result. It doesn't have to be "for a fact" that a specific Linden did something in particular, when it comes to abusive security orbs, encroached objects, etc. If they are suddenly not where they were, that means they were removed. And that is what matters.

Do calm down; I've already said I am not attacking you.  I see what you're saying in the quotation above but however vigilant you may be you can't know what happens to every AR (I doubt any Governance Team Linden does either but they could).  At best what you can get is a subjective impression.  I report abuses if I come across them, and the ones in General regions can be appalling.  It took months to get a particular piece of filth out of a G region, with multiple people ARing, so I do appreciate the frustration one can feel.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Garnet Psaltery

[AlettaMondragon]

Just now, Garnet Psaltery said:

I took you to mean you had some ARs not yet submitted.  Of course, if I'm mistaken you can easily clear that up.

 

Yes, it looks like you greatly misread that:

5 hours ago, AlettaMondragon said:

(I could show interesting examples, like how a sex club can show in search as General rated content for months despite being reported several times, or how a waterway can be blocked entirely for several months while being reported, but I'm not keen on making those public. Yet.)

As I said, those were reported. And as I said, what I don't want to do is making the issues public. That's why I don't do it. And there's a "Yet", because the fact that I don't want to do it, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to do it in the future. Hope this helps.

As for the discussion, no, opposing my standpoint would be fine, because I can defend it. Attacking or accusing me with nonsense questions or suggesting what I should do or should have done is not a discussion. I'm bringing facts, my experiences and my opinion on these things. If you have a problem with that, or have a different opinion, sure, go ahead and ask and say things that are relevant, instead of making assumptions, and we can talk. Otherwise, as I said, rather have a nice day.

[Garnet Psaltery]

3 minutes ago, AlettaMondragon said:

 

Yes, it looks like you greatly misread that:

As I said, those were reported. And as I said, what I don't want to do is making the issues public. That's why I don't do it. And there's a "Yet", because the fact that I don't want to do it, doesn't mean I wouldn't want to do it in the future. Hope this helps.

As for the discussion, no, opposing my standpoint would be fine, because I can defend it. Attacking or accusing me with nonsense questions or suggesting what I should do or should have done is not a discussion. I'm bringing facts, my experiences and my opinion on these things. If you have a problem with that, or have a different opinion, sure, go ahead and ask and say things that are relevant, instead of making assumptions, and we can talk. Otherwise, as I said, rather have a nice day.

It does you no good to misrepresent what I've been saying as attacks or nonsense.  I stand by what I've said.  Let's leave it at that.

[AlettaMondragon]

1 minute ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

It took months to get a particular piece of filth out of a G region, with multiple people ARing, so I do appreciate the frustration one can feel.

 

In my experience, the serious ones usually get resolved in a reasonable time, so I actually don't really have a problem with how it works. It could be better, it could be worse. I like to try to make things better, so I'm focusing on that. The examples I brought are not so old, and it definitely takes a long time to get certain things resolved. Subjective impression or not, I really don't care who removes a camouflaged solid prim that's laying right under the water level at a region crossing on a protected waterway, if it's gone, it's resolved. When the prim gets replaced with a new one, though, still subjective impression, but the strong impression - suspicion - that the person replaced it after it was returned by a Linden. After like 20 such cases during one year, I'm pretty sure I can decide what I'm seeing at a certain place.

 

[Dafadilia Wayfarer]

The thing is, many don't read rules or covenants so really are ignorant of something they should be aware isn't allowed. Of course that doesn't make it right, but it also means that malicious intent wasn't behind every muck up. I message the person before I AR them. Some with orb issues don't know how to set up an orb properly so I offer my help, point out the LL orb (which is the most awesome thing ever because of how low LI, effective and easy it is to use) and gently suggest they read the Convenant in Belli. If this doesn't work, I AR the issue. 

Sometimes someone just needs some help and the problem gets fixed by offering the help. However we deal with issues we come across, having patience is beneficial. 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Dafadilia

[Anna Nova]

12 hours ago, Dafadilia said:

The thing is, many don't read rules or covenants so really are ignorant of something they should be aware isn't allowed. Of course that doesn't make it right, but it also means that malicious intent wasn't behind every muck up. I message the person before I AR them. Some with orb issues don't know how to set up an orb properly so I offer my help, point out the LL orb (which is the most awesome thing ever because of how low LI, effective and easy it is to use) and gently suggest they read the Convenant in Belli. If this doesn't work, I AR the issue. 

Sometimes someone just needs some help and the problem gets fixed by offering the help. However we deal with issues we come across, having patience is beneficial. 

My experience, and I admit it is only a small sample, is that IM's result in abuse, not action or thanks, or even requests for help.  So, while I applaud your philanthropy, I go straight for the AR to the throat.

One of the really good things about LL's AR system is that, while you get an acknowledgement, you will never ever get to be told the result of the Governance Team's investigation.  Thus the ignorant can be educated by them and correct their own behaviour without public pillory, while the truly criminal can go to the gallows (or whatever) in silence.

[Rabid Cheetah]

It's often hard to find offending orbs, even when you haven't been TP'd home.  And you need to click on the object in question to AR it.  I've had to derender Linden Homes and look for transparent objects due to people getting sneaky and hiding their orbs in walls or under their home.  One even hid it under the surface patch.  I'm not convinced people doing stuff like that don't know what they are doing and are trying to skirt the rules in the covenant.

The ones that TP you home are the worst.  Nevermind trying to get back to where you were and find a rez-zone;  My solution to that is to use wearable vehicles that don't need to be rezzed, like my UFO.  The big issue is that the orb message usually doesn't include the parcel name or owner, so you don't even know who to AR, much less where the orb is.  When I got an insta-TP home recently, I realized I had a responsibility to all the other explorers out there to find this damned orb before THEY get poofed home, too.  I spent over an hour going from region to region in the vicinity of where I was, using Firestorm's find object function (because I at least had the name of the orb manufacturer and object name), but still couldn't find that orb.  I wound up ARing a Linden tree, then explaining why I'm ARing a mole lol

I fully support LL's crackdown on orb abuse.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Rabid Cheetah

[AlettaMondragon]

15 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

It's often hard to find offending orbs, even when you haven't been TP'd home.  And you need to click on the object in question to AR it.  I've had to derender Linden Homes and look for transparent objects due to people getting sneaky and hiding their orbs in walls or under their home.  One even hid it under the surface patch.  I'm not convinced people doing stuff like that don't know what they are doing and are trying to skirt the rules in the covenant.

I've had the same experience a few times, from the time when I cared to try to kindly resolve it with the person that had an improperly set orb. It usually ended with my name getting on the parcel's ban list manually, very rarely with the orb really taken down or set up properly, and in a few cases just like what you said. It was weird to see some people really tried to conceal them like putting the orb's scripts into an invisible prim sphere under their house named "Object". It was a nice try, though, it made me laugh and facepalm.

Sometimes people really make mistakes, and in those cases they do their best to correct them. It's quite easy to tell what you're dealing with in a certain situation.

To find anything that's well-hidden, Area Search in Firestorm should almost always work (it produces some weird things sometimes, when it comes to results), but it only finds objects within your draw distance range, and vertically it's a bit weird, so to scan a parcel in full altitude, it takes some skydiving. Then again, if the scripts of an orb were placed into a random prim, you would have to check each object one by one, which might not even be worth the effort. Filing the AR from the location where it happened (like right next to the parcel), and directly on the suspected owner, should be good enough, then the Govs can have some fun as well to investigate the whereabouts.