acceptable forms of discrimination

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I don't AR them out of principle; it's not how I think we should handle this sort of BS?

But I've held information pickets, blogged, built exhibits . . . there are ways to fight back.

Can we get Maddy to set them on fire?

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, RowanMinx said:

Can we get Maddy to set them on fire?

The last time I invited Maddy to an exhibit opening of mine, she sat and quietly watched in glee while a mistaken LM sent a few dozen visitors to the exhibit falling to their deaths at 700m. She's NO help!

@Rolig Loon did an exhibit on this sort of thing once, as I recall? Am I remembering correctly?

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Dramamonging drama needs to try harder, me thinks...

[Rolig Loon]

There's always a bit of tension between what's allowed under the TOS and what's ethical or even what people might like.  The SL TOS simply says (Sect. 3.4):

You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with the Agreements, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify the Agreements.

This is loosely parallel to what goes on in RL.  You own a piece of property somewhere, so you get to decide who's allowed to visit. You set the rules for behavior, and you get to decide when they've stepped over the line and should be told to leave.  As long as your own rules don't violate local/state/federal law, you get to call the shots.  In this case, SL is a virtual environment owned by a private company and the "law" is the TOS.  There's a gray area in the "law" because the TOS includes, by reference, the Community Standards.  Those standards prohibit (among other things)

Intolerance

Linden Lab encourages social interactions between users across multiple countries. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation is prohibited. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame users or groups are similarly prohibited.  

Harassment

Harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner that is offensively coarse, intimidating, threatening, or causes annoyance or alarm is not allowed.

Ultimately, Linden Lab is the arbiter of what is acceptable in this gray area, because SL is their "land".  As the Community Standards says, "In most cases, a user’s first violation of the Community Standards will result in a warning. If there are future violations, the user’s account(s) may be suspended and ultimately terminated if the behavior persists."  If you think you have spotted behavior that violates the letter or spirit of the TOS or the Community Standards, submit an AR to call it to LL's attention.  Or, as Scylla says, boycott or make other peaceful protests to make your concerns public.  

 

[Rolig Loon]

24 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

@Rolig Loon did an exhibit on this sort of thing once, as I recall? Am I remembering correctly?

You're recalling more than one exhibit about Human Trafficking, I suspect, as well as exhibits to call attention to women's issues.  Thank you. 

[So Whimsy]

Everyone's SL is different and they can decide whom not to mingle with via banning certain groups. It may not be right but its their second life.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

You're recalling more than one exhibit about Human Trafficking, I suspect, as well as exhibits to call attention to women's issues.  Thank you. 

Nope. Thank you.

[Amina Sopwith]

49 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The last time I invited Maddy to an exhibit opening of mine, she sat and quietly watched in glee while a mistaken LM sent a few dozen visitors to the exhibit falling to their deaths at 700m. 

If it's a Coldplay concert, I think that's considered to be a form of euthanasia. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

14 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

If it's a Coldplay concert, I think that's considered to be a form of euthanasia. 

Ugh, totally.

When we did 16 Days of Activism against Gender Violence in 2010, we of course had a ton of live SL musicians scattered throughout the schedule, but one of our affiliate groups decided to go one better, and bring in an SL U2 tribute band. They were obviously a pretty big deal: we had to set up 4 regions for the concert, and we got swamped.

I'd have preferred Sonic Youth, but not my call, sadly.

[FairreLilette]

I live in Southern California.  Our most common banning by businesses says:  No shirt, No shoes...No service.  Those kinds of signs are mostly at the beach towns which means no bikinis or bathing suits and must wear shoes when going into a business.

But, in rl, country clubs and private clubs exist.

SL is full of a lot of private clubs, some more open than others.

As a Dinkie, a tiny cat with human characteristics, I cannot go everywhere because I detract from the immersion of the "realists".  There are Dinkie sims and events, however, and they are a blast!   So, I love being a Dinkie.  

[Dillin Woodward]

23 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

 Our most common banning by businesses says:  No shirt, No shoes...No service.  

Those ban anyone that makes the decision to dress this way or that. I get that.   That bans a behavior.

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

[Rowan Amore]

16 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

Those ban anyone that makes the decision to dress this way or that. I get that.   That bans a behavior.

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

Yes, it's allowed on private areas.  Is it accepted by everyone?  Not at all but as Scylla said, the only way to possibly change this is to protest, boycott specific places with these restrictions.

[Paul Hexem]

25 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

Those ban anyone that makes the decision to dress this way or that. I get that.   That bans a behavior.

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

If I want to build my own version of some kind of playboy mansion, and I can't ban all the people that aren't playboy bunny material, I'm going to stop paying LL for land and go do something else.

If I want to run a matchmaking service exclusively for gay men, I need to be able to ban or eject all the people that aren't gay men, or I'm going to stop paying LL for land and go do something else. 

LL does not want us to stop paying for land, so they let us ban whoever we want. It's no more complex than that.

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

4 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

And 90% of black men are white.  Might as well just not let anyone into the sim.

I was told back in the 90s when the internet was getting popular that there was no girls on the net and it was just one really big guy sitting in front of a bank of screens logged on to everything! 🤣

[Sukubia Scarmon]

42 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

Those ban anyone that makes the decision to dress this way or that. I get that.   That bans a behavior.

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

It's exactly as okay as it is in RL. Think about it: in RL, you can kick somebody out of your home/apartment for any reason, including just being gay/of colour/a women. That's the thing about freedom, not every part of it is nice. It does allow for crappy behaviour. It's one of the prices you pay for it.

But please, don'T go around like "Oh, racism and stuff is super okay with the peeps here..." because with most it's certainly not.

[Caitlin Tobias]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I live in Southern California.  Our most common banning by businesses says:  No shirt, No shoes...No service.  Those kinds of signs are mostly at the beach towns which means no bikinis or bathing suits and must wear shoes when going into a business.

But, in rl, country clubs and private clubs exist.

SL is full of a lot of private clubs, some more open than others.

As a Dinkie, a tiny cat with human characteristics, I cannot go everywhere because I detract from the immersion of the "realists".  There are Dinkie sims and events, however, and they are a blast!   So, I love being a Dinkie.  

Yeah, I am an elf in SL - looking mostly human with the exception of my ears. There are regions that only allow human avatars, in some cases they tolerate the elf ears and in some cases they don't. If I am in the right mood and really, really want to be somewhere where they ask me to change ears..I might. When I don't feel like changing ears (more often than not) I will just leave.  I never make a fuss about it, their land, their rules. Surely this is not real discrimination, I am aware of that, it just means I - like Lilette, cannot go everywhere. It's okay.

[FairreLilette]

52 minutes ago, Dillin Woodward said:

Those ban anyone that makes the decision to dress this way or that. I get that.   That bans a behavior.

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

Oh, it was just your OP that made me remember those signs that say No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service because it's funny actually.  Most people would think who the heck walks around with no shirt?  Well, it's at the beaches and they mean no swimming trunks only and that the men must put a shirt on and we all must put on clothes of sort and not just swimming suits.  

But, to the rest of my post, I was trying to say I cannot go everywhere as a Dinkie and I don't go to places out of respect for "immerionists" where it would take away from the realism of SL with cats dressed like children that walk upright and dance.

SL has all kinds of sims with restrictions.  There are also restrictions in RL with private clubs and country clubs for example.  

And as Paul Hexem is saying above, people buy sims to cater to a certain clientele.

As far as the above with sexual orientation/color/gender/etc...it's needed for certain things but, if not needed, it's just weird.

But, honestly, I have never seen the above discriminations but I've always been a Moderate/General kind of SLifer.  I rarely go to adult things or sims if at all.  I am not interested in cyber sex nor an internet relationship.  

 

[Nalates Urriah]

4 hours ago, Dillin Woodward said:

I'm just amazed that in 2020, this sort of hateful and discriminatory, racist, sexist behavior is still allowed to exist here in SL.

In a fascist system it wouldn't be. In a free world people are allowed to be jerks and hateful for whatever reason they can dream up. We being free too do not have to hang out with such people. They being free do not have to listen to our ideas of what is and isn't proper and can maintain their jerkness without conforming to our ideas.

That ...pursuit of happiness... thing is tricky. How does one keep a majority from trampling the rights of minorities? 

Cancel Culture is working to correct such freedom and eliminate diversity of opinion and behavior. If the philosophy is adopted, you'll have a government to tell you what and who to like and such comments will land a person in jail. Conform or be CANCELED.

Imagine living in Hong Kong and having the CCCP tell you they have decided to ignore the treaty with Britain and your free speech is gone. Toe the party line or else.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Dillin Woodward said:

Those ban anyone that makes the decision to dress this way or that. I get that.   That bans a behavior.

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

In Second Life, everything is behavior. A landowner has no way of knowing anything about the actual physical traits of those behind the avatars so those blanket bans based on real-world attributes would be meaningless.

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Dillin Woodward said:

My issue lately is with the acceptable levels of racism, bigotry and sexism in SL that describe a blanket ban of anyone that is gay/straight, or male/woman, or black/white.

You seem to be associated people telling you the TOS with them being acceptable to the behavior.  One does not equate to the other. 

 

2 hours ago, Dillin Woodward said:

What I'm hearing is that this is OK here in SL.

You have already been given examples of where some of it is acceptable.  If I'm running a gay dating club, I can kick out anyone that is not gay.  Likewise, if I'm running a hetro dating club, I can kick out anyone that is not hetro.

If you don't want LL to allow any of that, go right ahead and petition them to change it - though I highly doubt you will succeed.  Even if you did, the people doing the banning would simply give some other "official" reason for the ban -- I don't like your smile, so you are banned, etc....   Hell, if LL did away with sexism, 1/2 - 3/4 (or more) of SL would have to shut down.

Regardless of what LL allows or disallows, just like in RL, that alone will not stop discrimination.  Only educating people will stop that.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Reading  the posts and deciding to pass... remembering a line from the movie War Games..

The only wining move is not to play 

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

I was told back in the 90s when the internet was getting popular that there was no girls on the net and it was just one really big guy sitting in front of a bank of screens logged on to everything! 🤣

That's just not true!

There are actually thirteen of us, split exactly 50/50 male/female.

[Solar Legion]

1. You have conflated being allowed to do so as per several Linden lab provided documents and it being acceptable; a moral/ethical judgement that has nothing to do with the rules whatsoever - separate these concepts/learn the difference
2. Having information concerning the rules relayed to you does not mean those doing the relaying find it acceptable
3. Relaying specific scenarios where some form of discrimination is seen as not only acceptable but desirable does not mean anyone is defending the less desirable situations

Sit down and put down the faux outrage/surprise/shock.

[Sprout Evergarden]

when a person leases a sim in SL it is theirs to do with what they wish and that includes rules that are exclusionary.  while back ago i had a aircraft runway on my private parcel on the mainland i would allow people to use that runway but it was posted clearly i reserved the right to ban anyone for any reason and frequently did for some of the stupidest stuff like farting or burping over voice chat.

 

[Anna Nova]

I ban people who ban people.