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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:
2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Where did the sun come from?

It still doesn't connect us to the rest of the universe. It vast, hostile and only hospitable to us on the pale blue dot ( according to dr. Sagan ) so far as we know.

So the sun formed separately from all the rest of the Universe? All the other stars and planets? 

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Just now, TDD123 said:

*sighs* 'The singularity of the Big Bang ? Really ? Aren't you contaminating facts too quickly ?

I know you can do a lot better than that, Maddy.

In the human search for meaning and connection, the distinction between our creation from elements forged in Stars and taking the idea all the way back to the Big Bang is of little consequence. You have confused the details for the bigger picture.

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

So the sun formed separately from all the rest of the Universe? All the other stars and planets? 

Of course it did. Stars are born and die every minute. They do not live in sync. Planets are formed by stars. To each star it's own system.

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3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

 You have confused the details for the bigger picture.

The elements you are comprised of are billions of years old ? Oceanwater remains oceanwater and saliva remains saliva. Basically one could call them both H2O, but they are still not one and the same thing.

Edited by TDD123
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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:
4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

 You have confused the details for the bigger picture.

The elements you are comprised of are billions of years old ? Oceanwater remains oceanwater and saliva remains saliva. Basically one could call them both H2O, but they are still not one and the same thing.

Edited just now by TDD123

I stand confirmed.

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7 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Of course it did. Stars are born and die every minute. They do not live in sync. Planets are formed by stars. To each star it's own system.

 

4 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

The elements you are comprised of are billions of years old ? Oceanwater remains oceanwater and saliva remains saliva. Basically one could call them both H2O, but they are still not one and the same thing.

Reductionist hogwash!

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Note my go-to physicist-philosopher's use of the word "universe"...

An Atom In The Universe - Richard Feynman

There are the rushing waves
mountains of molecules
each stupidly minding its own business
trillions apart
yet forming white surf in unison 

Ages on ages
before any eyes could see
year after year
thunderously pounding the shore as now.
For whom, for what?
On a dead planet
with no life to entertain. 

Never at rest
tortured by energy
wasted prodigiously by the Sun
poured into space.
A mite makes the sea roar. 

Deep in the sea
all molecules repeat
the patterns of one another
till complex new ones are formed.
They make others like themselves
and a new dance starts.
Growing in size and complexity
living things
masses of atoms
DNA, protein
dancing a pattern ever more intricate. 

Out of the cradle
onto dry land
here it is
standing:
atoms with consciousness;
matter with curiosity. 

Stands at the sea,
wonders at wondering: I
a universe of atoms
an atom in the Universe.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Reductionist hogwash!

No .. that would be :

I fit in my suit. My suit fits in my suitcase. I fit into my suitcase.

Or :

I have atoms. The universe has atoms. I am the universe.

Edited by TDD123
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3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Growing in size and complexity
living things
masses of atoms
DNA, protein
dancing a pattern ever more intricate

I wonder why they grow in complexity when they could have just as easily....not.  Do you have any ideas on this interesting phenomenon?

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11 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Oceanwater remains oceanwater and saliva remains saliva. Basically one could call them both H2O, but they are still not one and the same thing.

The elements of the earth....fire, earth, water, air.....each one has separate forms...but each form is still part of the basic element it derived from....it is never totally separate from that basic element.

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Take, for example, fire.  You can have glowing embers or a blaze of flames...but there is something(s) common between the two..

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The elements of the earth....fire, earth, water, air.....each one has separate forms...but each form is still part of the basic element it derived from....it is never totally separate from that basic element.

The elements I am referring to are those of the (chemical) periodic table.

 

Not the reductionist hogwash we have been confronted with since the ancient Greek .. :P

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4 minutes ago, TDD123 said:
9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The elements of the earth....fire, earth, water, air.....each one has separate forms...but each form is still part of the basic element it derived from....it is never totally separate from that basic element.

The elements I am referring to are those of the (chemical) periodic table.

 

Not the reductionist hogwash we have been confronted with since the ancient Greek .. :P

But unifying, and source, are not automatically the same as reductionist.

What unifies is reality, not the forms.

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34 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Nonsense. We contain elements from our Sun, the only star we obtained those elements from.

Actually, that's nonsense. We, and our sun are formed from heavy elements release during the death(s) of nearby stars in our region of the universe. Our Sun will eventually reach the point on the "main sequence" where it can't fuse enough hydrogen to stave off gravitational collapse. At that time it will fuse heavier elements until it explodes, distributing those elements into space, to be captured or coalesced by gravitational attraction into perhaps yet another star.

https://astronomy.com/magazine/ask-astro/2020/02/what-elements-does-the-sun-contain

If you are going to take a pure physics view of all this, you'd do well to obtain a basic grasp of the physics.

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

But unifying, and source, are not automatically the same as reductionist.

What unifies is reality, not the forms.

Didn't reality ( and time ) teach us that dividing the world into the listed elements you stated, were limited and insufficient in our search of understanding ( science ) ? Why else did most of science let these ideas go eventually ?

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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

... coalesced by gravitational attraction into perhaps yet another star.

 

... or a planet .. ours. And that's were we got these elements from ( metal ores ) which can be traced in our biology.

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2 minutes ago, TDD123 said:
5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But unifying, and source, are not automatically the same as reductionist.

What unifies is reality, not the forms.

Didn't reality ( and time ) teach us that dividing the world into the listed elements you stated, were limited and insufficient in our search of understanding ( science ) ? Why else did most of science let these ideas go eventually ?

The details are interesting and worthwhile with many discoveries.

The problem is when one mistakes the details for the entire truth.

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

The details are interesting and worthwhile with many discoveries.

The problem is when one mistakes the details for the entire truth.

And only you KNOW the truth, right ? And I'm soooooo wrong.

:D

 

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:
3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The details are interesting and worthwhile with many discoveries.

The problem is when one mistakes the details for the entire truth.

And only you KNOW the truth, right ? And I'm soooooo wrong.

If you insist in only seeing the part while ignoring the whole then yes you're wrong.

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

If you insist in only seeing the part while ignoring the whole then yes you're wrong.

I will always admit I will never know the whole truth about everything.

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27 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:
32 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Growing in size and complexity
living things
masses of atoms
DNA, protein
dancing a pattern ever more intricate

I wonder why they grow in complexity when they could have just as easily....not.  Do you have any ideas on this interesting phenomenon?

I'm imagining Madelaine is contemplating this, or hoping, but why do think,  @TDD123 ,  that the basic elements of existence grew in complexity when they could have just as easily stayed simple?

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

grew in complexity

I know that is a hot topic among atheists and religious people, but I THINK if one searches scientifically for a reason one has to end up with the scientifically known forces of nature ( gravity, weak / strong force, nuclear fusion ). In simple ( because I am simple ) word : energy.

"I don't know" would be the most sincerest answer.

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