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Bellissaria is Not Mainland


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Just now, Mollymews said:

conversely conversely

Tada?

Just now, Mollymews said:

a Belli-like banline rule would prompt me to dump my mainland parcel

I am not actually advocating this, just that if it were done, it would be the only part of the Belli differences I would be OK with.

Just now, Mollymews said:

zero-time orbs are more of a bane for me than banlines when out and about on my motobike when it goes sideways on a bumpy region crossing

I don't see this as an either or situation.  I don't have any zero-time orbs but I wouldn't want to be restricted to only using an LL created security system either.

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10 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I just logged in my alt that owns a houseboat and did not get a message, either in Chat or via Notifications.  

 

nothing here either, no notification in email, nor inworld

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Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

I am not actually advocating this, just that if it were done, it would be the only part of the Belli differences I would be OK with.

I don't see this as an either or situation.  I don't have any zero-time orbs but I wouldn't want to be restricted to only using an LL created security system either.

i understand that you weren't advocating either way. I was just getting my vote in, just in case Lurker Linden

if Linden were to do anything about banlines then my hopes are:

1) have vehicles bounce off banlines 

2) have a viewer setting where the visibility distance of banlines can be adjusted.  Like min. 0 = Never Show and 1 = Show all banlines within draw distance.  The 1 setting would be of great help to vehicle riders. So that we can see them from a lot further away than we can now, allowing us to plot our route/path around them more easily

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9 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i understand that you weren't advocating either way. I was just getting my vote in, just in case Lurker Linden

Fair 'nough.  We all get a vote :)

9 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

if Linden were to do anything about banlines then my hopes are:

1) have vehicles bounce off banlines 

2) have a viewer setting where the visibility distance of banlines can be adjusted.  Like min. 0 = Never Show and 1 = Show all banlines within draw distance.  The 1 setting would be of great help to vehicle riders. So that we can see them from a lot further away than we can now, allowing us to plot our route/path around them more easily

Yes, this I do like, very much.  I'll vote for this too.

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Just doing a quick fly through of regions looking for any objects named "security" it appears only maybe a quarter of residents have any security devices at all. Building it into the house would needlessly increase the numbers of scripts in the region, and many would still opt to use their own. I think it would send the message that "this is something you need, otherwise it wouldn't be there" leading to more people using security just because they think they are supposed to rather than because they've decided they want to. 

I'd rather have the idea of Bellisseria be that his is a welcoming community where you can have a security system, but you shouldn't have to. 

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3 minutes ago, Abnor Mole said:

Just doing a quick fly through of regions looking for any objects named "security" it appears only maybe a quarter of residents have any security devices at all. Building it into the house would needlessly increase the numbers of scripts in the region, and many would still opt to use their own. I think it would send the message that "this is something you need, otherwise it wouldn't be there" leading to more people using security just because they think they are supposed to rather than because they've decided they want to. 

I'd rather have the idea of Bellisseria be that his is a welcoming community where you can have a security system, but you shouldn't have to. 

i never  saw any reason to use security in my Belli homes  ,i like the feeling of freedom and open space  ,so what if someone enters my property   ?   i hope he /she admires  my furnishing skills   ,lol  ,they will move on if you dont give them attention ,

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5 minutes ago, Atina0 said:

i never  saw any reason to use security in my Belli homes  ,i like the feeling of freedom and open space  ,so what if someone enters my property   ?   i hope he /she admires  my furnishing skills   ,lol  ,they will move on if you dont give them attention ,

I agree. People tend to forget that Bellisseria land is still "common" land, none of us truly own it and we're all just renters. I don't use any orbs either. It seems anti-community to use orbs.

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6 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:
17 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I just logged in my alt that owns a houseboat and did not get a message, either in Chat or via Notifications.  

 

nothing here either, no notification in email, nor inworld

Ditto on no emails either.  I left the alt logged on for hours and she never did get any inworld notice of any sort.

 

@Patch Linden - Is the messaging system set to only notify inworld?  Maybe also sending emails would be a good idea.  The alts that own my Bellisseria homes seldom ever log in, as I'm the primary resident of the locations.  The alts only log in when something needs to be done that only the home owner can do.

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 I didn't mind the message, how ever I was not even on Bellisseria and got the message..  I almost blocked the sender then I seen who it was from..lol opps.. I get those messages in local from creators who for some reason think it is ok to do that when you only bought something once 2 yrs ago..

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10 hours ago, Mollymews said:

in Belli this bit is not true.  Each parcel is separated by LDPW land which is set to auto-return. So any vehicle stuck in a banline and abandoned by its owner would be returned.  Runaway vehicles also abandoned would also get autoreturned, except from homeowner parcels which are not set to auto-return

That depends on whether or not the vehicle's root prim is in the parcel or the linden owned land. Not sure here, but it's often looked like they were right on the nose when I've seen them - with the right perms on the land, the vehicle can end up anywhere.

I've had angry accusing rants from a person 20 regions away from me before, in a direction I had never been...

If it is the case that the root prim always fails to make it into the plot - there is still the issue of forced log outs, ejections, and so on. I've found myself tossed multiple regions away, and then logged out after a banline collision.

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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Even on mainland, I almost always only use orbs in skyboxes hidden way up out of view. The exception has been a few cave home builds and once I did put up a fairly standard house, blocked out all the windows, and put orbs inside... I was in a mood... but it's the exception.

I've always felt ground builds should be fairly open.

At the most an orb that only triggers on someone inside walls.

Maybe it's me being an urban city person. Rural and suburban folk seem to be the ones who live with a gated fence, warning signs, and a pack of shotguns. Even when and in fact especially when I've lived in the ghettos of the Inner City's, folks basically hung out on porches and doors were often open during the day.

 

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2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

If it is the case that the root prim always fails to make it into the plot - there is still the issue of forced log outs, ejections, and so on. I've found myself tossed multiple regions away, and then logged out after a banline collision.

in the last few days since Linden improved the vehicle region crossings I have found the experience to be a whole lot better than it has ever been. When vehicle script accounts for this, the fail rate is whole lot less than it ever was

on the very few occasions where I do find myself getting ejected to another region not the vehicle destination, is when a parcel is on a region boundary. Like on my parcel. The direction of eject is North onto the region next to me. Not South onto the Linden road on the same region

about the can appear to end up zillions of regions away

when a banline is already up then we can't get ejected from the parcel. We are prevented from entering

sometimes tho, when a crossing borks badly our avatar can appear to go off-world relative to the region where our vehicle is, plus or minus 1000s of meters. We are still  bound to the vehicle, but our avatar presence can be picked up by scripts in the remote location

the worst possible security system experience for vehicle riders is a parcel that allows us to enter, but then the script detects our presence on a vehicle, adds us to the parcel access banlist (a built-in system 15 second delay), but after adding us to the banlist it immediately script ejects us.  Hitting this parcel on a borked region crossing can send us off-world. In the off-world state then we can't teleport and have to relog

 

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On 8/31/2020 at 11:03 AM, Pussycat Catnap said:

On Bellisseria, if I used an orb - I'd want to set it up to only be encountered by someone INSIDE the walls of my home, and not someone banging their head against the window on the outside... and I can do that with the system I have, but not with the Linden orbs.

With a bit more work, SL could make walls and doors actually keep people out.

  • The "eye" option for parcels that hides avatars should also prevent camming in through solid objects. This would prevent camming and sitting to get through walls. Useful for games and roleplay sims, too. Would require fixing bugs in camera control so that the camera moves inward towards the avatar if there's an obstacle between the normal viewpoint and the avatar, so that when you sit with your back to a wall, you don't have a viewpoint outside the wall.
  • Set teleport arrival point for parcel outside the building.

Making buildings solid in that way would give SL more of a sense of reality.

Edited by animats
Typo
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On 8/31/2020 at 6:35 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

I'm using Firestorm and don't ever see the Toast thingies or chat bubbles.  I get envelope notifications in the upper right and Chat and IM messages in the lower left.  System notificationS -- like the one telling me about the latest incident - show up in my general Chat area.

Maybe the system 'knows' it has already informed an IP address and doesn't want to bombard each account on the same IP address with the same message?

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On 8/31/2020 at 9:03 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

This security orb issue is vital.

As people pointed out to me when I stated that only an idiot would use an off-brand orb... I was being the idiot at the time... The linden made orbs lack the ability to define small zones inside your parcel. They also lack tools to properly record enough log details.

For me, were I to use an orb in Bellisseria - it's the small zone issue that is key. On mainland I have placed orbs in past to ONLY police a 2.97mx1.97mx4.97m zone of space, and other such specific arrangements (I've set them up in past to police the cave house inside of a hill, but not the hill itself so people could walk all over the hill and never know they were standing on top of an orb).

On Bellisseria, if I used an orb - I'd want to set it up to only be encountered by someone INSIDE the walls of my home, and not someone banging their head against the window on the outside... and I can do that with the system I have, but not with the Linden orbs.

You can use "off-brand orbs" in Bellisseria, as long as they respect the covenant, meaning they cannot act within a certain "airspace."

20 hours ago, animats said:

With a bit more work, SL could make walls and doors actually keep people out.

  • The "eye" option for parcels that hides avatars should also prevent camming in through solid objects. This would prevent camming and sitting to get through walls. Useful for games and roleplay sims, too. Would require fixing bugs in camera control so that the camera moves inward towards the avatar if there's an obstacle between the normal viewpoint and the avatar, so that when you sit with your back to a wall, you don't have a viewpoint outside the wall.

Since camera controls are client-side, this couldn't be enforced. A viewer could choose to just ignore objects that are marked as "solid for the camera," the same way a viewer can ignore LSL-based camera controls. The parcel-privacy setting is different since it's a server-side restriction. The viewer can't render something it has no knowledge of. If the server doesn't even inform the viewer about the avatar that's in a private parcel, there's no code you can add into the viewer to render that avatar anyway. I mean, you could, but it'd be a system avatar with grey skin and no animations (or something you choose explicitly).

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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5 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Since camera controls are client-side, this couldn't be enforced. A viewer could choose to just ignore objects that are marked as "solid for the camera," the same way a viewer can ignore LSL-based camera controls.

It won't be absolutely airtight, but few people put code into the viewer. The "can't sit without line of sight from avatar to sit target in a look-blocked area" restriction would be server-side. That prevents camming and teleporting through a wall or door, regardless of the viewer.

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15 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

You can use "off-brand orbs" in Bellisseria, as long as they respect the covenant, meaning they cannot act within a certain "airspace."

 

They also must TP to parcel edge, not home, and give at least 15 seconds for folks to get off the parcel.

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5 hours ago, BJoyful said:

Maybe the system 'knows' it has already informed an IP address and doesn't want to bombard each account on the same IP address with the same message?

The alt that owns the Houseboat is currently the only owner of any Linden Home, so she should have gotten the notice.  None of my other accounts got it - which makes sense for them.

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5 hours ago, animats said:

It won't be absolutely airtight, but few people put code into the viewer. The "can't sit without line of sight from avatar to sit target in a look-blocked area" restriction would be server-side. That prevents camming and teleporting through a wall or door, regardless of the viewer.

is interesting topic this

what Linden have provided already works in Default mode. Some examples:

- when we are standing/moving the camera moves forward and up when there is an object between us and the camera
- entering or sitting on a blocked parcel is catered for with access controls (banlines)
- sitting on objects of our own making then LSL provides methods to set the sitters camera
- the camera by default cannot go under the terrain

what happens tho is that we tend to disable Camera Constraints and Limit Select Distance for building purposes

so I think that whatever changes are made then we would need a way to distinguish between Normal camera mode and Build camera mode other than just the camera placement. A question is how might these be resolved ?

like in principle: When we are on land that is build-enabled then Build mode camera. When we are not on Build enabled land then Normal mode camera

questions: Does Build mode camera only apply up to the boundary of the parcel, when it is surrounded by no-build parcels ? If so then what happens when we zoom out ? Does the camera automatically switch to Normal mode when it crosses the parcel boundary ? and would it automatically switch back to Build mode when it crosses back onto my parcel ?

is a number of other questions as well. But this is the main one

i think that it would have to be a settable parcel option but not tied to Build. Like a parcel Restrain Camera option

altho I think if we went down this path then an alternative is:

a Do Not Render Stuff On My Parcel to those outside my parcel when the root prim of my stuff is on the parcel

from a residents pov, how this can work is cut a floorplan parcel for our house inside our main parcel. Build the shell of the house (roof, exterior walls, etc) outside the floorplan parcel. Then furnish the inside. Anyone camming in sees nothing of our furnishings nor can they see us when Avatar Visibility is Off. All they see is an empty space. Banline/orb/LSL taking care of things like intrusion and sit camera as it does now

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I wonder how many people suddenly felt guilty and wondered what they had done wrong when they got the message, it took a little while for me to realise it had been sent to everyone and wasn't a cryptic message about some unspecified specific transgression.

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