Bellissaria is Not Mainland

[Prokofy Neva]

Well, now we know! Patch has spoken with a clear pronouncement.

And one of the ways you will know it really isn't mainland is that an orb will have to be set in a certain way so as not to bounce you from your own land among other things.

 

[Elena Blossom]

Well, I am not really a land expert in SL, but to me, it has always been clear. Actually, some of us are happy in Bellisseria because of that

I own a little parcel in mainland because it allows me creativity, but the most attractive thing to me about Bellisseria is that there is a covenant, so I am not going to end up with a massive wall or a space rocket next to my parcel. Not to mention how beautiful the landscaping and homes are

Edited August 31, 2020 by Elena Core
repeated word

[Pussycat Catnap]

This security orb issue is vital.

As people pointed out to me when I stated that only an idiot would use an off-brand orb... I was being the idiot at the time... The linden made orbs lack the ability to define small zones inside your parcel. They also lack tools to properly record enough log details.

For me, were I to use an orb in Bellisseria - it's the small zone issue that is key. On mainland I have placed orbs in past to ONLY police a 2.97mx1.97mx4.97m zone of space, and other such specific arrangements (I've set them up in past to police the cave house inside of a hill, but not the hill itself so people could walk all over the hill and never know they were standing on top of an orb).

On Bellisseria, if I used an orb - I'd want to set it up to only be encountered by someone INSIDE the walls of my home, and not someone banging their head against the window on the outside... and I can do that with the system I have, but not with the Linden orbs.

 

As for the rest of the covenant. The whole value for me and many others to Bellisseria is that covenant. It's why my home TP is my Victorian, not my double prim land on Zindra... Mainland is a sandbox space with a nice house at ground just to keep the neighbors happy... but Bellisseria is a place worth actually being in...

 

@Patch Linden I'd suggest a sticky on that new post you made but only a small number of people read the forums. Maybe a notecard to all landowners in Bellisseria, someone on the login screen announcements or hints that pop up (trying to remember if hints pop up when you TP or if I've gotten an MMO jumbled with my SL in my head), and put a link to the covenant on the account pages that cover premium users (the land pages, etc)?

Sadly nobody ever 'reads the manual'... but still good to try to get it in front of their eyes...

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Gabriele Graves]

My thoughts:

In the Region Details window on the Covenant tab, the original Linden Homes regions such as Meadowbrook are marked as "Type: Mainland/Full Region" even though they are in the "Linden Homes" estate and have a covenant.  Bellisseria regions are marked as "Type: Linden Homes/Full Region" in a different estate "Linden Homes 2" with different rules.
People have long been told by LL and residents alike that you only need LL land tier for mainland and of course Bellisseria is linked to mainland unlike the original Linden Homes regions.
Both types of Linden Homes are offered together on the page where you obtain one.

It is also common for some people to equate new and different things to other things they are familiar but with some caveats carved out that explain the differences.
For example: "It's mainland but with a covenant and different rules."

So all in all, I think it is pretty reasonable and forgivable if some people thought of both the original Linden Homes and Bellisseria as Mainland with some different rules.
After all there are some indistinct and fuzzy lines here.

To my knowledge there hasn't been an officially distinct and clear line drawn until now or it was extremely poorly badly promoted.

Stating that Linden Homes are not part of mainland should be at the top of the covenant like this: "Linden Homes are not located on Mainland."
When signing up for a Linden Home, the covenant should be and should have been displayed to the person with an I agree button to click as a necessary part of the process.

Explicit is good, lots of people need to be told things explicitly.  It sets the right expectations from the start.
Getting all your ducks lined up and making things consistent is important for clear messaging.

That said, the rules about orbs have been in the covenant since they were introduced and so I have my doubts that a forum reminder and it being in a new LL messaging system will really have much effect.  I think mostly that people aren't reading anything regarding the rules or they just don't care.  My money would be on the latter given my experiences with some land users.
 

[Quartz Mole]

2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

 

@Patch Linden I'd suggest a sticky on that new post you made but only a small number of people read the forums. Maybe a notecard to all landowners in Bellisseria, someone on the login screen announcements or hints that pop up (trying to remember if hints pop up when you TP or if I've gotten an MMO jumbled with my SL in my head), and put a link to the covenant on the account pages that cover premium users (the land pages, etc)?

Sadly nobody ever 'reads the manual'... but still good to try to get it in front of their eyes...

 

Next time you log in, you should receive a message from the messaging system directing you to Patch's post.

[LittleMe Jewell]

8 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Next time you log in, you should receive a message from the messaging system directing you to Patch's post.

I thought that is what Patch's post was saying, however I just logged in my alt that owns a houseboat and did not get a message, either in Chat or via Notifications.  

@Patch Linden - Was it supposed to be a Chat message or one of those notifications like group notices come in or a pop-up or ????

Edited August 31, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell

[Nika Talaj]

It's their special messaging system.  One of my alts was in early this morning, and it showed up looking sort of like a toast in the lower right corner of my screen, which happens to be where notices show up for me.  I just logged in myself and didn't see anything; I assume it will get around to re-sending to those who missed it, sometime when they stay logged in for a while, similar to CasperVend gift deliveries?

Why am I typing?  Quartz is in this thread, and I'm pretty sure he knows ALLLL about it!  *slinks away*

Hey, Lil!  I answered your question!  Now give me your houseboat  🙃

Edited August 31, 2020 by Nika Talaj

[Rabid Cheetah]

@Patch Linden @Abnor Mole Thank you so much for this directive.  Those Zero Second TP Home orbs ar virtually impossible to track down and report when encountered if you've been flying fast over several regions.  I once spent several hours doing a regional object search in the general area I'd been TP'd from to ensure my AR was complete, but never did find the object in question.  Then there are folks who hide them underneath their homes or inside one of the walls, and change transparency of the orb to 100%.  Those I CAN find, eventually, but it takes a long time.

Despite my funny "Gladys Kravitz" meme, this is one of those things where I DON'T engage parcel owners for their covenant violations.  I fell a responsibility to the next explorer to potentially get zapped halfway across Belli to report the orb immediately.

I hope this move will increase orb policy compliance, so that @Pussycat Catnap and other folks can have the orb features they like.  Failing that, I hope Linden will consider an update to the official security system that allows for banning trespassing to limited areas of the parcel rather than the whole thing -- though that would probably involve the creation of Linden Orbs, so they could be placed in the center of the given area to be off-limits, as opposed to a security system that is placed by the door controls and therefore can't really be configured for anything but the entire parcel.

Suggestions:

- Work with orb producers and sellers to have official LH-compatible orbs;  This could be a new selling point for merchants.

- Get rid of orbs and security systems in Belli altogether, and just use ban lines -- and yes, I know they're ugly, if you see them, but there are viewer options to remove them from view as easily as one removes those red parcel boundary lines.

- Don't make the security system a separate object that folks have to find in the LH Dohickey Pack.  And yes, "dohickey" is the correct technical term.  I Googled it.  Make it part of the existing Windows/Doors/Redecorate panel, so it's right there for folks.  This would also mean that users could have security in place without having to decrease their available prim count -- yeah, it's only one prim, but that can be a big deal for camper dwellers.

[Pussycat Catnap]

2 minutes ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

- Get rid of orbs and security systems in Belli altogether, and just use ban lines -- and yes, I know they're ugly, if you see them, but there are viewer options to remove them from view as easily as one removes those red parcel boundary lines.

Banlines are much worse than orbs...

It's not just about visual elements. There's the vehicle issues as well. Driving, sailing, and flying in Bellisseria would be extremely difficult if the place was full of banlines. And we'd end up with abandoned vehicles stuck in the air littering up the entire continent - not even by intent either. As people got ejected and forced logged out after hitting a banline and having their vehicle's scripts break - the vehicle, now possibly no longer in the same region as SL records as their last location before the viewer crashed, might never be found again...

 

[Abnor Mole]

12 minutes ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Work with orb producers and sellers to have official LH-compatible orbs;  This could be a new selling point for merchants.

There is nothing stopping merchants from doing that now. 

Edit: By "that" I mean using that it is made to comply with the Covenant in Bellisseria and cannot be set in a way that breaks the covenant as a selling point.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Abnor Mole

[Quartz Mole]

49 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I thought that is what Patch's post was saying, however I just logged in my alt that owns a houseboat and did not get a message, either in Chat or via Notifications.  

@Patch Linden - Was it supposed to be a Chat message or one of those notifications like group notices come in or a pop-up or ????

It can take a few minutes before it notices you're online -- I don't want to keep pinging the dataserver to check on the online status of all landowners on Bellissaria any more than necessary!   If you still don't see it after you've been online for a while, drop me a message inworld to tell me which region it is, and I'll see what's happened.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Quartz Mole

[Rabid Cheetah]

Hey, would a 64x64x64 100% transparency non-phantom cube placed around one's parcel be covenant-acceptable?  Just thinking outside the box, both figuratively and literally lol  Well, really, whatever the ground dimensions of the parcel are, given its type.  It could keep folks out without having to hassle with orbs.  [Just a creative thought that crossed my mind while typing the above, not the first salvo in a "waaaauuuugh how dare you tell me how to manage security on my parcel" fight, in case anyone is thinking of responding that way.]   Yeah, I realize folks could still TP in, and there'd be an issue with parcel owner vehicles leaving (though they could edit the cube, set to phantom, rez their boat, sail it beyond the parcel border, then edit the cube again to make it non-phantom).  Double-click TP to the Linden Land next to a cubed parcel to leave it on foot.  Could be a fun roleplay.  "Lower shields, Mister Wharf!"   "It's...Worf..."  Yes, I know I think too much lol

[Rabid Cheetah]

7 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Banlines are much worse than orbs...

It's not just about visual elements. There's the vehicle issues as well. Driving, sailing, and flying in Bellisseria would be extremely difficult if the place was full of banlines. And we'd end up with abandoned vehicles stuck in the air littering up the entire continent - not even by intent either. As people got ejected and forced logged out after hitting a banline and having their vehicle's scripts break - the vehicle, now possibly no longer in the same region as SL records as their last location before the viewer crashed, might never be found again...

 

Ah.  Didn't realize that.  Thanks.  What a conundrum.

[Abnor Mole]

1 minute ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Hey, would a 64x64x64 100% transparency non-phantom cube placed around one's parcel be covenant-acceptable?  Just thinking outside the box, both figuratively and literally lol  Well, really, whatever the ground dimensions of the parcel are, given its type.  It could keep folks out without having to hassle with orbs.  [Just a creative thought that crossed my mind while typing the above, not the first salvo in a "waaaauuuugh how dare you tell me how to manage security on my parcel" fight, in case anyone is thinking of responding that way.]   Yeah, I realize folks could still TP in, and there'd be an issue with parcel owner vehicles leaving (though they could edit the cube, set to phantom, rez their boat, sail it beyond the parcel border, then edit the cube again to make it non-phantom).  Double-click TP to the Linden Land next to a cubed parcel to leave it on foot.  Could be a fun roleplay.  "Lower shields, Mister Wharf!"   "It's...Worf..."  Yes, I know I think too much lol

What you are describing is essentially a fence, just a transparent one. Fences are limited to 4m tall per the covenant. 

[Rabid Cheetah]

10 minutes ago, Abnor Mole said:

What you are describing is essentially a fence, just a transparent one. Fences are limited to 4m tall per the covenant. 

Thanks for the clarification.  Yeah, I see that now, it's not just about the visuals, it's about access and right-of-way.

[BJoyful]

I've always felt like Bellisseria is not only Mainland, but Premium Mainland, setting a wonderful example of the value of a Covenant to guide Residents new to the Premium upgrade (as to what owning your very own bit of SL feels like) plus a wonderful example of open access for explorers and vehicle users while still allowing a form of security for those who feel it is important to them.  Bellisseria can be both a starter community as well as a retirement community.  I've learned so much living close to the wealth of experience and advice of 'oldbies' and the curiosity and limitless ideas and questions from the 'Noobs' also ♥

Bellisseria is the crown jewel of SL (at least until Super Premium Bellisseria - or whatever it may be named - is revealed) and I hope it will eventually connect all the major Mainland Continents together.  Whatever happens... I think it will be full of good surprises!  💯

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Hey, would a 64x64x64 100% transparency non-phantom cube placed around one's parcel be covenant-acceptable?  Just thinking outside the box, both figuratively and literally lol

i can't help myself when i read this. Start thinking of all the covenant-compliant things that could be done

like:

a 4m high transparent wall around the property, with a lid on it. Is scripted to go phantom on owner/group collision. Non-phantom for anyone else so they just bounce off

for people who double-click teleport inside the wall then Landing Point is set to Z = 4095 meters in the sky and as is no prim to land on, they do the long fall. Group is set to Ignore Landing point so owner/group members will not be affected

for non-group people who sit on our furniture inside the wall. The furniture is scripted to move to parcel boundary, and then the link prim number of the sitting person is moved off the edge of the parcel and then unsit/unlink so they end up on the street

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

It's their special messaging system.  One of my alts was in early this morning, and it showed up looking sort of like a toast in the lower right corner of my screen, which happens to be where notices show up for me.  I just logged in myself and didn't see anything; I assume it will get around to re-sending to those who missed it, sometime when they stay logged in for a while, similar to CasperVend gift deliveries?

Why am I typing?  Quartz is in this thread, and I'm pretty sure he knows ALLLL about it!  *slinks away*

Hey, Lil!  I answered your question!  Now give me your houseboat  🙃

No you cannot have my houseboat.  Sorry   (not sorry)

I'm using Firestorm and don't ever see the Toast thingies or chat bubbles.  I get envelope notifications in the upper right and Chat and IM messages in the lower left.  System notificationS -- like the one telling me about the latest incident - show up in my general Chat area.

[Garnet Psaltery]

People keep mentioning toast, and now I'm hungry.  But as for orbs I like my non-Linden one as it can set a lower minimum height.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Garnet Psaltery
3 am brain fog

[Marianne Little]

8 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

@Patch Linden @Abnor Mole Thank you so much for this directive.  Those Zero Second TP Home orbs ar virtually impossible to track down and report when encountered if you've been flying fast over several regions.  I once spent several hours doing a regional object search in the general area I'd been TP'd from to ensure my AR was complete, but never did find the object in question.  Then there are folks who hide them underneath their homes or inside one of the walls, and change transparency of the orb to 100%.  Those I CAN find, eventually, but it takes a long time.

Despite my funny "Gladys Kravitz" meme, this is one of those things where I DON'T engage parcel owners for their covenant violations.  I fell a responsibility to the next explorer to potentially get zapped halfway across Belli to report the orb immediately.

- I agree, and especially those that hide their orbs.

I hope this move will increase orb policy compliance, so that @Pussycat Catnap and other folks can have the orb features they like.  Failing that, I hope Linden will consider an update to the official security system that allows for banning trespassing to limited areas of the parcel rather than the whole thing -- though that would probably involve the creation of Linden Orbs, so they could be placed in the center of the given area to be off-limits, as opposed to a security system that is placed by the door controls and therefore can't really be configured for anything but the entire parcel.

Suggestions:

- Work with orb producers and sellers to have official LH-compatible orbs;  This could be a new selling point for merchants.

- Don't think it will help much. People must educate themselves before they shop, and there are the real problem. People are also lazy and will use the system they have learnt. For some, it is more difficult to learn than for others.

- Get rid of orbs and security systems in Belli altogether, and just use ban lines -- and yes, I know they're ugly, if you see them, but there are viewer options to remove them from view as easily as one removes those red parcel boundary lines.

- NO NO. And the official viewer can't hide ban lines. It has not changed, has it?

- Don't make the security system a separate object that folks have to find in the LH Dohickey Pack.  And yes, "dohickey" is the correct technical term.  I Googled it.  Make it part of the existing Windows/Doors/Redecorate panel, so it's right there for folks.  This would also mean that users could have security in place without having to decrease their available prim count -- yeah, it's only one prim, but that can be a big deal for camper dwellers.

- The BEST idea I have read. ❤️Very many landlords do this, it is right there when people go inside. It must be right in peoples faces so the most ignorant see it. And it is easy!! Easy is good. (Isn't the current security system 5 Li? It used to be) I mean this must be done if all other security systems are banned.

My replies are bolded and underlined.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Marianne Little
added a few more words, trying to explain better

[Mollymews]

8 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Banlines are much worse than orbs...

Bellisseria would be extremely difficult if the place was full of banlines. And we'd end up with abandoned vehicles stuck in the air littering up the entire continentIt's not just about visual elements.

 

in Belli this bit is not true.  Each parcel is separated by LDPW land which is set to auto-return. So any vehicle stuck in a banline and abandoned by its owner would be returned.  Runaway vehicles also abandoned would also get autoreturned, except from homeowner parcels which are not set to auto-return

[Mollymews]

30 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

- NO NO. And the official viewer can't hide ban lines. It has not changed, has it?

the Linden viewer has had the capability to not show banlines since about 2007

menu: World \ Show \ Ban Lines

[Anna Nova]

14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, now we know! Patch has spoken with a clear pronouncement.

And one of the ways you will know it really isn't mainland is that an orb will have to be set in a certain way so as not to bounce you from your own land among other things.

 

Brilliant, well done Mr Patch.

Personally I would like to see Mainland rules changed in the same way.  At the moment you can spend a vast amount for good bit of land, only to have some 'it's mine and I'll do what I want' redneck move in next door and ruin it with a megawall.  That is one of the reasons I am selling my mainland, and saving the tier.

[Gabriele Graves]

2 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

Personally I would like to see Mainland rules changed in the same way.

Conversely, if this were done it would prompt me to sell up all of my mainland parcels.  Though as I have previously said, I would be OK if the ability to turn on blanket/general ban lines was disabled.

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Conversely, if this were done it would prompt me to sell up all of my mainland parcels.  Though as I have previously said, I would be OK if the ability to turn on blanket/general ban lines was disabled.

conversely conversely a Belli-like banline rule would prompt me to dump my mainland parcel

zero-time orbs are more of a bane for me than banlines when out and about on my motobike when it goes sideways on a bumpy region crossing