Pixel Snobery

[Rabid Cheetah]

So some folks have asked me why I'm so opposed to pixel snobbery, the practice of not talking to, banning, or ridiculing people for their avi appearance, whether for having a classic avi instead of mesh, looking more realistic than the supermodel standards of current Second Life culture, or *gasp!* dressing up as a fury or fantasy/sci-fi character.  My reasoning has been that it's bad enough when this sort of attitude happens in the real world, but to do so in a game?  How shallow do you have to be to do that?  Over little cartoon pixels?  I also feel it works in the opposite direction.  That is, not just real world body-shaming influencing one's views on "ew yucky non-mesh" avi's,  but being exposed to such attitudes in Second Life will lead one to behave in a similar fashion in real life.  When you engage in pixel snobbery, you help reinforce a culture that thinks this kind of crap is funny:

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/08/9987054/new-teacher-challenge

 

[Alwin Alcott]

it's kinda disturbing for me that you give a article link that starts with somebody in RL that has a genetic bone and muscular disorder, followed by examples of other disabilities
Nobodies avatar is rezzed in SL with such illness, or any other.
don't glue that on Sl appearances, it has nothing to do with it.

You put a 10 year old avatar that didn't made any efford on his look for all that time in the same category?
Think you seriously need to adjust your post.

[AdminGirl]

IMO pixel representations don't tell us that much about the people they represent. Shallowness in rl at least serves a bit more of a purpose. We can make guesses about someone based on how they look. But what can someone's av appearance really tell us.. like really? If someone's av is basic or unattractive, it could just mean that the person chooses to spend their money on their rl selves. Or that they're not on sl much.. I mean, is that really a bad thing?

It's a bit different for people who are only interested in sl and not rl - I can see the reasoning for being av shallow there. But aside from that, pixel snobbery is pretty dumb.

Edited August 28, 2020 by AdminGirl

[Syo Emerald]

36 minutes ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

but being exposed to such attitudes in Second Life will lead one to behave in a similar fashion in real life.

Are their studies on this or do you just assume that? And how can we tell if someone hasn't been always prone to harshly judgeing others based on apperance?

That aside: I'm with Alwin. Avatar apperance is a choice, not a condition of a fleshy body you can't escape.

[Alwin Alcott]

6 minutes ago, AdminGirl said:

 If someone's av is basic or unattractive, it could just mean that the person chooses to spend their money on their rl selves.

 i dare to disagree partly, there is so much free stuff in SL that money can't be a reason not to change/adjust/work on the look.
System avatars doesn't mean they have to be unattractive. I have a few myself, but a bit dated look doesn't mean "bad"

 

[elise Voxel]

What is the meaning of attractive in SL? Apart from classic avatar as opposed to mesh body/ mesh head, how can you judge whether an avie is attractive or not?

For example, I don't like for my avie to have a curvy body. Half the women in SL have curvy figures.

The point is, SL is for you to develop an avatar that pertains to your definition of attractive. And that definition is different for everyone. 

 

[AdminGirl]

29 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

 i dare to disagree partly, there is so much free stuff in SL that money can't be a reason not to change/adjust/work on the look.
System avatars doesn't mean they have to be unattractive. I have a few myself, but a bit dated look doesn't mean "bad"

 

Fair enough. I was commenting more on a general basis. I've seen your alt system av who is very attractive. I guess what I was getting at is if people are making quick assumptions based on avs, I suspect they could be so wrong.

[Nick0678]

Personally when it comes to doing business in SL i don't mind what type of avatar the other person has chosen to use.Same way that i don't care who/what/how they look in RL either. So regardless if it looks like a 3d supermodel or particle cloud, business is business and money is money.

When it comes to socializing i don't consider avatars attractive so it doesn't trigger me, i am interested more in how a person thinks and of course if we are talking about dating how they look in RL. I am not gonna go for a drink or vacation with their avatar after all.

Of course i understand that some people like to think SL is part of their real world and i respect that so i do have a male looking well dressed avatar when it comes to dealing with such people but if everyone liked to be a dragon/a dog/ whatever i wouldn't mind at all. It would be the same thing for me.

So it really depends if a person categorizes people based on their virtual character or what they are in the real world.

[steeljane42]

People who start these kind of threads always forget that we all log to SL for different reasons. If you are looking to get to know people behind avis, then classic/mesh or type of an avi makes little difference for that. However, I do think that regardless of type of an avatar, efforts do count. If someone who is around SL for years can't be bothered to even pick some updated freebies and put on a free AO for some non default look, then it's the complete lack of efforts.

But some of us come to SL to "explore pretty pixels", to roleplay. For those people, including myself, visual quality matters almost as much as ability to emote/rp. Aside of that I have no interest in people, nor who is behind an avatar (I do only hope they are all adult, as I happen to enjoy adult RP). So while I try to not ignore people, unless they are obvious trolls, spammers, griefers etc, and unless I'm busy I always reply if they IM me and ask something, but other than that I do not interact with people whose appearance I find unattractive in one way or another (no, being "full mesh" doesn't make one attractive by default. starter shapes are ugly, so are most starting skins).

Comparing it to rl is useless, like already mentioned above. And other than that, that so called "pixel snobbery" just reeks of entitlement by those who assume that they "deserve attention no matter what", while in reality it's as far from the truth as it gets. Be what you want in SL, classic or mesh, human or furry, realistic or cartoon; it's your right and your choice. But it's your SL, not mine, so if I don't want you to be part of my SL, for any kind of reason - accept it and move on to find people who will.

[Rowan Amore]

This has been my experience with most but not all of older ava with the freebie look.  The usually have no profile pic, nothing in their picks section and a whole lotta sex groups.  Now you tell me why this person logs in.  I don't just see them in adult areas either.  Shopping venues, music clubs.  You see them noob walking from one person to the next, standing right up in their faces then moving to the next.  Sorry, not sorry but I avoid these people.  On the other hand, I occasionally meet someone like this except they have a well written profile.  Some lovely people and conversation and why I ALWAYS read a profile when someone messages me.   Often, appearance just gives a clue as to how someone uses SL.  

[Sprout Evergarden]

I have been pixel snobed a few times and not because of the quality of my avi i have plenty of good mesh stuff but i have been banned on sight at a few places because people see someone in a avatar with hooves, horns and a pointy tail and assume troublemaker, and its that locations owner / manager's prerogative to do so.   Does it suck? yes but, I would never compare it to a RL bone disease.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Atosuria Daviau

[Rabid Cheetah]

8 hours ago, Atosuria Daviau said:

I have been pixel snobed a few times and not because of the quality of my avi i have plenty of good mesh stuff but i have been banned on sight at a few places because people see someone in a avatar with hooves, horns and a pointy tail and assume troublemaker, and its that locations owner / manager's prerogative to do so.   Does it suck? yes but, I would never compare it to a RL bone disease.

But it's precisely the same attitude.  The demand to meet a certain standard, and if not, you will be banished.  It's a disgusting mindset, whether it manifests itself in the real world or the virtual one.  Heck, it all comes down to a mindset that Dr. Seuss ridiculed in The Sneetches.  And it's rui9ned one aspect of this game that was a lot more fun back in the day, as you have personally experienced.

[Rabid Cheetah]

9 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

People who start these kind of threads

Have the guts to call me by my name, not this equivalent of raising your voice and looking sideways at me while childishly shouting in a snotty tone, "But SOME people..."

Edited August 28, 2020 by Rabid Cheetah

[Rabid Cheetah]

9 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

People who start these kind of threads always forget that we all log to SL for different reasons. If you are looking to get to know people behind avis, then classic/mesh or type of an avi makes little difference for that. However, I do think that regardless of type of an avatar, efforts do count. If someone who is around SL for years can't be bothered to even pick some updated freebies and put on a free AO for some non default look, then it's the complete lack of efforts.

But some of us come to SL to "explore pretty pixels", to roleplay. For those people, including myself, visual quality matters almost as much as ability to emote/rp. Aside of that I have no interest in people, nor who is behind an avatar (I do only hope they are all adult, as I happen to enjoy adult RP). So while I try to not ignore people, unless they are obvious trolls, spammers, griefers etc, and unless I'm busy I always reply if they IM me and ask something, but other than that I do not interact with people whose appearance I find unattractive in one way or another (no, being "full mesh" doesn't make one attractive by default. starter shapes are ugly, so are most starting skins).

Comparing it to rl is useless, like already mentioned above. And other than that, that so called "pixel snobbery" just reeks of entitlement by those who assume that they "deserve attention no matter what", while in reality it's as far from the truth as it gets. Be what you want in SL, classic or mesh, human or furry, realistic or cartoon; it's your right and your choice. But it's your SL, not mine, so if I don't want you to be part of my SL, for any kind of reason - accept it and move on to find people who will.

It's not entitlement.  It's not "hey, look at me."  It's sadness over what Atosuria has described.  It's sadness over, well, your attitude, and others, that destroys a key part of what SL used to be:  An open and accepting community.  It's disgust with a Sneetches attitude, whether in RL or SL.  Which is even worst than a holier-than-thou assumption on people's motivations for starting threads.

[Rabid Cheetah]

8 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

This has been my experience with most but not all of older ava with the freebie look.  The usually have no profile pic, nothing in their picks section and a whole lotta sex groups.  Now you tell me why this person logs in.  I don't just see them in adult areas either.  Shopping venues, music clubs.  You see them noob walking from one person to the next, standing right up in their faces then moving to the next.  Sorry, not sorry but I avoid these people.  On the other hand, I occasionally meet someone like this except they have a well written profile.  Some lovely people and conversation and why I ALWAYS read a profile when someone messages me.   Often, appearance just gives a clue as to how someone uses SL.  

Yep.  profiles are so much more important than avis.  That's how you find out what people are really like.

[Seicher Rae]

Paying attention matters. The avatar appearance gives you information, but incomplete information. You also have to be aware of your own mental biases. This is just like in RL. However, just like in RL, if you judge the proverbial book by its proverbial cover, you are making a lot of assumptions with only a minimal amount of knowledge.  But appearance can definitely let you know a few things. The profile in SL is not more important than the avatar appearance, but it definitely gives you a clue. An old system avatar with kind of a crummy look and zero info on the profile? To me those often go together and I am not compelled to look further and talk to them. I *will* talk to them, if they talk to me first, I'm just saying I wouldn't instigate a conversation. How they write their profile gives info, what is the style in which they write? What they write gives info. I recently saw one profile that was nothing but quotes from movies. I drew conclusions. 

I find the OP to be very strangely written. It starts out with how she is often asked why she's against "snobbery." Uh... like it is reasonable to be pro-snobbery? How about "I don't understand why you are *against* bigotry." Wut???

And comparing some people's preferences of avatars to a real life medical condition, is just... odd. Apples/oranges. Yes, they are both kind of visual biases, but ffs.

And "destroying what SL used to be, an accepting community"... when was this Nirvana? Certainly not in the 11+ years I've been around. There has been and always will be some people who have a shallow view of other people and their standards.

 

 

[steeljane42]

1 hour ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Have the guts to call me by my name, not this equivalent of raising your voice and looking sideways at me while childishly shouting in a snotty tone, "But SOME people..."

Name calling is against forum rules. Besides there's nothing unique about this thread of yours, and it was certainly not the first time I saw similar topic, and it won't be the last time either. What is similar in all of those cases despite who the OP is (it's you in this case, duh) is heavy bias towards own beliefs and yes, an entitlement (I saw your 2nd reply and I don't agree with it).

"Accept me no matter what, no matter how I look or what I do" is what you say, while completely disregarding the fact that own people have their own beliefs, standards and interests, in both, rl and sl. You are pretty much trying to make others to use and accept your standards instead of deciding for themselves what they want to do with their (s)lives and free time.

However I do believe in good manners and being civil, and I certainly don't agree with mocking or shaming others for their choices in SL. That's completely unnecessary and pointless, so there's no need for that. So if someone who doesn't meet my standards or interests contacts me with some kind of an offer (can be anything; RP or asking to dance, or to get to know me better) I politely decline it. If they insist or ask why, then I explain the reason in a calm and civil way; if they don't - that's where our interaction ends. If they feel offended by that - it's their choice, but at this day and age people get offended by everything and anything anyway.

I never expect to meet everyone's else expectations and standards either. Someone might not like the style of my avatar, some might not the style of my emoting/RP, some might dislike that I'm not typing too fast most of the time (and if I do, then I make plenty of typos) and so on. No one is entitled for anyone's else free time, including myself. And it's fine. Forcing yourself and your beliefs upon others is not fine.

[Lewis Luminos]

An avatar's appearance in SL is entirely different from a person's appearance in RL.

In RL you have very little control of how you look. You can change your clothes and hair but that's about it; your "shape" and "skin" are pretty much fixed genetically. But in SL you have total control. So I do think that the appearance of a person's avatar in SL can say a lot about who they are as a person. That's why it makes no sense to compare SL avatars with people who have genetic diseases. No avatar in SL has a genetic disease, unless they choose to portray it that way. And making that choice would in itself say something about the person behind the avatar.

I don't agree with mocking and shaming people for the way their avatar looks, but at the same time, I respect the choices of land owners to specify what kind of avatars they want in their regions. Particularly a role-playing place, where it might not fit the storyline to have a furry or an anime avatar or a toaster-robot-thing. I once went to 1920s Berlin as a guest, and as part of the region rules I made my avatar shorter than usual. No big deal, I just returned to my normal height afterwards. If I went to a place where  I was required to be a furry, or an anime character, or a toaster-robot-thing, I would, because I can. Changing your avatar is easy and temporary, I don't get why people fuss so much about doing so. It's no different from being asked to wear a tux when I go to a swanky jazz club.

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

2 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

It's not entitlement.  It's not "hey, look at me."  It's sadness over what Atosuria has described.  It's sadness over, well, your attitude, and others, that destroys a key part of what SL used to be:  An open and accepting community.  It's disgust with a Sneetches attitude, whether in RL or SL.  Which is even worst than a holier-than-thou assumption on people's motivations for starting threads.

I'm going to have to agree.with Seicher. I've been here 10+ yrs and I don't recall a time when it was open and accepting.  There have always been places that had restrictions regarding appearance and honestly, I'm fine with that.  Whomever it is that owns the place is living their SL as they would like.  That is what it's all about.  

[Jordyn McGregor]

12 hours ago, Atosuria Daviau said:

I have been pixel snobbed a few times and not because of the quality of my avi i have plenty of good mesh stuff but i have been banned on sight at a few places because people see someone in a avatar with hooves, horns and a pointy tail and assume troublemaker, and it's that locations owner / manager's prerogative to do so.   

 

4 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

But it's precisely the same attitude.  The demand to meet a certain standard, and if not, you will be banished.  It's a disgusting mindset, whether it manifests itself in the real world or the virtual one.  

Just pointing out that if you go to a location where the owners have decreed a certain look (ie must be human avatars) and you rock up as a centaur or furry or cute little elf, well you are going to asked to humanise your avatar or leave.  Some places do ask for a level of avatar looks and whilst it might be snobbery, well it is their place, their rules and their prerogative to do so.    

[Sprout Evergarden]

13 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

 

Just pointing out that if you go to a location where the owners have decreed a certain look (ie must be human avatars) and you rock up as a centaur or furry or cute little elf, well you are going to asked to humanise your avatar or leave.  Some places do ask for a level of avatar looks and whilst it might be snobbery, well it is their place, their rules and their prerogative to do so

 

i am totally aware of this and happily change if asked but in the case i mentioned was at a store no request or anything just gone. and i 100% approve their choice to do so after all it is their land. but i also took it as a signal they did not want to make a sale and made note if it for when i shop on marketplace.

[Jordyn McGregor]

4 minutes ago, Atosuria Daviau said:

 

i am totally aware of this and happily change if asked but in the case i mentioned was at a store no request or anything just gone. and i 100% approve their choice to do so after all it is their land. but i also took it as a signal they did not want to make a sale and made note if it for when i shop on marketplace.

I wouldn't give them my lindens either.  

[MelodicRain]

People have every right to ridicule and not associate with people who put zero effort in their looks, when it's so damn easy to look at least acceptable in a sim like SL. No one said you have to look like a Caucasian, tanned, slim supermodel with blonde hair and huge breasts, which unfortunately is the "SL standard". Now there's a huge difference between looking completely outdated, versus looking unique and non-mainstream. If your SL age is 10 years and you look literally like Ruth (google it if you don't know what Ruth is) or Noob Linden, there are only two possible explanations:

1. You're trolling for attention
2. You couldn't give less of a crap about your own appearance, therefore you shouldn't expect anyone else to give a crap about you

If you look like a rainbow coloured elf with a sombrero, but all body parts and clothing at least look like they were made in the 21st century, that's called looking unique and non-mainstream, and perfectly acceptable unless you're a bigot.

[Conifer Dada]

I'm coming up to 14 years in SL and I still use a system avatar, although I have mostly mesh clothing and mesh hair.  I've only been challenged once about my non-mesh appearance, by a lady with a full mesh avatar decked out in perfectly fitting mesh clothing and accessories. While she probably thought of herself as a SLupermodel,  her shape actually looked ridiculous - huge hips, tiny waist, narrow shoulders and short arms with tiny hands - a combination you never see in RL!  Me being me, I didn't retaliate, but I knew exactly what I would have said if I'd done so! 

A well proportioned system avatar with a realistic skin still looks better than a badly proportioned mesh one with a poorly detailed skin.  

As I often say on here, what would be really good would be if LL could update the system avatar with minor tweaks to overcome the known problem areas and also to add some more sliders to further increase customisation. For example it would be good if we could adjust an avatar's basic permanent stance that would affect all animations. Things like toes in or toes out, stand up straight or stoop, or arms out a bit (for fat avatars).

Edited August 29, 2020 by Conifer Dada

[Talligurl]

22 hours ago, Atosuria Daviau said:

Does it suck? yes but, I would never compare it to a RL bone disease.

The big difference of course between Sl and RL is that in SL we can control how we look. Our appearance is not determined by our genetics but rather by our choices. I think we all make judgement about people based on their choice of clothing, What would you think about a person wear a Trump shirt? or a Biden shirt? Most people with political o[pinions nowadays are going to make some judgement about that person, it does not mean they will act on any negative opinion of course, but the opinion will still be there and likely affect in some way how the person interacts with someone. This is different from forming an opinion about someone based on a physical attribute the person has no control over. 

To me however the thing about Pixel snobbery (and RL discrimination as well) is that the snob hobs his or herself of a richer experience. By eliminating all those who don't measure up to some personal irrelevant standard, you will miss out on many wonderful things those people have to offer. One of the wonderful things about SL is the many diverse experiences we can have that don't occur in RL. There are many wonderful people here who can enrich our lives, many of them don't choose to use mesh avatars or human ones. When you refuse to interact with such people you only hurt yourself.