GTFO in Belli

[Rabid Cheetah]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So what you are saying is that you are using the Mole rez zones to covertly engage in GTFO gaming, which is a commercial enterprise.

Gosh, I wish I had thought of some way to do that. Maybe I should sit in a rowboat by the rez zones and cry "Tired of Belli lag? Rent my land!"

The covenant applies ONLY to parcel owners.  Anyone can use any Linden rez zone anywhere, Mainland or Belli, to rez whatever they want, with the only stipulation being the maturity rating of the rez zone.  Though bad form, you could even leave junk there and wait for the auto-return to clear it.

Given the thread about prims and materials bopping older things off a parcel if the new prim suddenly jumps from 1 prim to 1300+ prims, you bet I went to the nearest Belli rez zone to test that out, not on my own parcel.

As to going through the neighborhoods and talking about your biz in chat, again, the covenant applies to parcel owners vis-a-vis what they can build.  One can discuss any topic, even commercial activity, anywhere on Linden land, anywhere on the grid, including Belli, as long as it's not a violation of TOS or land maturity level.  You could even go door to door, engaging Belli parcel owners in conversations about lag, and then mention you own a low-lag server and are looking for renters.

[Rabid Cheetah]

9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

 

Everyone who isn't a forums cartel member grasps the deal with GTFO. BTW, I'm familiar with players who describe themselves as "not running a hub," but then having big advertising signs on their land for GTFO and related companies. I was not born yesterday. GTFO needs more territory to expand into, and people sitting in their Linden homes looks like a choice bite. I think the Lindens should hold the line here. If they don't, I think we will have to see that certain monopolists get their way with the Lindens once again.

No.

I

started this thread.  This thread was NOT started by some secret spy agency cabal of Illuminati in league with GTFO, Linden Labs, and the KGB, no matter how much fun it is to imagine yet another conspiracy theory.  I am not a member of a forums cartel, whatever the heck that is.  I am not someone claiming not to have a GTFO hub, and then putting a big sign advertising GTFO on my parcels.  That said, I MIGHT put several "GTFO Fans Clubhouse" signs on every single on every single parcel I own, encourage all my friends to do the same, and encourage everyone in my secret conspiracy lizard people tin foil hat forum cartel to do the same, if pushed far enough.  Such a sign would be no more of a covenant violation than a sign proclaiming one's love of Supergirl, inviting other fans to come in and socialize.

I respect your opinion, and am glad to see what the reaction of neighbors might be should at some point be able to afford a GTFO hub and decide to place one on my Belli parcel.  That's valuable information, thank you.  But this thread really isn't about "Signs in Belli:  Yes or No?"  I encourage you to start a new thread under that topic, and continue the sign debate THERE, not here.  Thanks.

[Rabid Cheetah]

9 hours ago, Mollymews said:

what games like this do is introduce strangers to each other, where they already have something in common before they meet.

 

Once again, THIS ^^^^^.  This is what SL is all about. 

[Rabid Cheetah]

8 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

I am puzzled about how it is that Belli rez zones are GTFO hubs.   I see two ways that GTFO might verify that a player has reached a hub:

1.  The hub has a scripted object that interacts with the script in the user's vehicle to verify their presence and, perhaps, do a little RP around that.  I don't see how this can be done at a rez zone, unless LL has allowed GTFO to place their scripted object in it?  Surely not!

2.  The user tells their vehicle that they've arrived at a hub, and the script checks with a web service to verify that they are at the correct place, and then presumably does a little RP to "unload" goods, and maybe pick up more.  Is that how it works?  But if so, why does the hub have to be at a rez zone. if the goods are physically nonexistent?

I think North mentioned that the rez zones aren't required;  GTFO hub parcel owners choose to offer rez zones so that folks can rez the appropriate vehicle for making a delivery.

[Rabid Cheetah]

3 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

If this thread wouldn't exist, you wouldn't even know that people in Belli are playing it.

And this week's Winner of the Internet Award goes to...

[Nika Talaj]

6 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

 I am not a member of a forums cartel, whatever the heck that is. ..That said, I MIGHT put several "GTFO Fans Clubhouse" signs on every single on every single parcel I own, encourage all my friends to do the same, and encourage everyone in my secret conspiracy lizard people tin foil hat forum cartel to do the same, if pushed far enough.  Such a sign would be no more of a covenant violation than a sign proclaiming one's love of Supergirl, inviting other fans to come in and socialize.

Feedback for  you: I would AR a parcel with more than one GTFO sign, or possibly two if it was at an intersection.  Indeed, I would AR any GTFO sign that was visually LOUD.  SIgns should not be necessary at all, if I understand the game as explained here.

"The Forum Cartel" is an inworld group that was started ... oh gosh I don't remember when, maybe 2008-ish?  Anyone is welcome to join, forum member or not.  It has a small mainland parcel with a clubhouse, where there is a breakfast every Sunday morning, which I can't get to.  There is some group chat now and then, a discord channel, impromptu  DJ gigs as well as the occasional seasonal party.  It was started by a few folks who were really active in the Resident Answers subforum; a few of the original members are still active in the forums here.  Over time, the membership changes, but the group still goes on.

True SL oldbies had mostly left the forums when I joined (2006), due to an incredibly bitter power struggle that I never bothered to understand.  There was also some risk involved in transgressing in the forums, since moderators had the ability  to dole out inworld suspensions as a result of Forum infractions, IIRC.  Small outbreaks of bitterness etc. continued for a few years.  Prok was around, and witnessed that power struggle, as well as many inworld power-schemes over the years, so has some justification for seeing power dy namics around every corner.

16 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Everyone who isn't a forums cartel member grasps the deal with GTFO.

Now, now, Prok, be nice. 

14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

...What's next? Tiny Empires at the docks? Vampires biting?

Actually, Tiny Empires did invade Belli waterways for a while.  I'm thinking LL beat them back, because I haven't seen gatherings of zombies around for quite some time.

14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's just obvious to the naked eye that GTFO means more traffic, like the pods mean more traffic, on the public highways. Why do the Lindens need to encourage this congestion?

Pods?  Let's keep focus.  GTFO has nothing to do with pods  Though pods are probably low lag (KFM), I do agree with you, they are visual spam, and I hope they never come to Belli.

I have never played GTFO, and probably never will.  If I were a Linden I would love it, tho, just because it DOES get people out and traveling long distances.  Why does LL build  unique contiguous land masses (a huge differentiator from other virtual worlds), if not to encourage residents to travel them?  I REALLY  don't understand why more residents tooling around the roads is a bad thing.

ETA: GTFO not only gets residents the f*** off their parcels, it gets them talking to each other.  We should be happy that LL is now interested in building community, after over a decade of complete indifference to communities in SL.  I don't see any  risk that LL will allow residents to build big industrial areas like on mainland in Belli, though I kind of like those.  They're nice to have OVER THERE *points to someplace far away*.  Truthfully, I think it would be fun if LL built a small industrial area in Millbank, for example, for roleplayers to use.

14 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I suppose it's because they take the tiny clique of the forums regs for "the residents' opinion" and go with that, and perhaps they imagine that a few hardcore fanboyz who like traffic are going to bring in more SALES FOR THEM. That, and various other group dynamics can explain this.

HAHAHAHA believe me, LL does not look to the forums for representational feedback on SL.  They know what a collection of obsessive oddballs we are here.  At best, we entertain them.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Nika Talaj
community note

[Prokofy Neva]

Some of the responses here are obsessing with the phrase "forums cartel" and then trying to stridently reject that the OP and others "aren't members of the cartel". Yes, there is a club with that name made up of some of the people who dominated the forums in the early SL days, but my use of the term is not meant to cover only technical members of that group, but the current "forums regs" and those who usually dominate every discussion -- it's a generic title, a mantle inherited by people who weren't even here in 2006. If the OP doesn't feel he is in any of those groups, that's fine, but the idea that GTFO should have eminent domain and go anywhere, obviously of interest to those who make both cash and reputational enhancement from GTFO, is the position of the dominant forums posters and one that many other people outside of the forums don't share.

BTW, the original forums cartel internecine warfare is opaque to me, but one factor that led to their demise is that new Lindens came in, new management, and they began to exercise their own rules fairly. When I first came to SL, what I objected to strenuously was the way in which a small group of "Feted Inner Core" did not have to obey the rules, as they were either friends of the Lindens, or *were* Lindens, i.e. the alts of Linden staff. So they could harass others with impunity and use obscenities and RL info in the process, and nothing happened to them. Finally, after some years, that began to come to an end.

Next, we are told that if the rez areas are open to anyone to rez any vehicle, then GTFO isn't doing anything wrong and shouldn't be discriminated against. And that I should even go door to door to hawk my rentals (and it will be five minutes before someone will send me a hate mail claiming I have done this, and that they read it on the forums as "proof").

Except the TOS does have rules about overuse of resuses, and if the GTFO overlords have set up scripts to automatically place vehicles at these areas, it's not the intended use; they are supposed to be open to the public and not seized as an unpaid real estate by one game. The TOS also has rules about sandboxes, where you cannot engage in commercial activity, and that by analogy applies to rez zones.

Then we're told that the Lindens "can't tell" who is playing the game and who is not as the vehicles don't have markings -- except many of them will have the GTFO script in them, which is purchased, which makes it commercial activity, and the Lindens can tell that. PS the Lindens could make a rule about keeping games like this out of Belli which take up resources, just like they made a rule that you can't have Christmas trees in July. That they may not be able to enforce that (I saw a Christmas tree just the other day by someone who hasn't logged in since December) doesn't mean that they shouldn't attempt to.

Many keep hammering on the idea that the game "isn't" commercial. Of course it is, and no amount of nay-saying can cancel that truth. No grid-wide activity could exist without a commercial aspect. The coders sell kits with scripts for vehicles of those who play it. That is commecial activity. If the transaction does not "ka-ching" literally on Belli territory, that doesn't mean it's "not commercial". Of course it is, and the game owners are looking for a vast new territory to spread into so that they can get more sales and more visibility, as if presence on much of the Mainland already is not enough. It never is. There is no question that if Belli is opened further to GTFO activity, *its owners profit*.

We're told that if it weren't for GTFO, and for that matter the pods, why, strangers would never have any other way of meeting each other. Of course, GTFO is a ruthless solitary game where a driver tries to beat a time deadline and goes to other parcels where the owner isn't there most of the time, so it's hard to see where any socialization occurs. But of course it's ridiculous on the face of it that only vehicles create socialization opportunities in SL. BTW Belli has its own home-grown group, Bellissaria Parade, with plenty of vehicles, and has functioned just fine without any mass commercial game or mass spamming activity, as it is opt-in. Socializing is more authentic in SL when it is organically created by residents, and artificial notions of socialization via vehicular traffic based on a poor understanding of Jane Jacobs don't work. BTW, Philip Rosedale was implementing Jane Jacob's ideas when he installed the telehubs. These were indeed real places where people actually did socialize, and were attacked -- again -- by a small number of forums regs who hated one or two of them in their old areas of SL which were avatar traps, and who also hated that they sent commerce the way of new players, and not them, in the boondocks, before there was p2p. I once took Robin Harper on a tour of many of the telehubs to show how people were indeed really socializing and she could see it in action. Philip Linden conceded that the lion's share of commece in SL occurred on telehub sims. Yet they were removed for purely ideological reasons because a few Lindens hated commerce (except for their own) and a few oldbies hated the look of some of them and the democracy of others that took business away from them. Funny how the love of industrial builds and vehicles appears again when it's GTFO and pods and not telehubs. 

We are also subjected to endless Belli cheerleading here as if some of these same residents don't complain about lag privately. Rabid finds the Mainland a "wasteland" and thinks that good citizens of Belli opening up their own homes as rez zones is a marvel of community spirit, but there have always been tons of Mainland hangouts and homes maintained by residents where rez zones were provided. I am one of them and there are literally hundreds more residents doing the same thing without any Bellissaria.

I don't see any black market rentals business in Belli homes. One reason is that you can't give them away, I've discovered, even if you merely wish to let anyone in a non-profit group use them for any period of time by joining that group to rez items. There is a concerted frenzy to get them; once people have them, they don't always use them. Offering someone else's to use isn't popular -- if they are going to bother, most people want their own Belli property.

@Nika Talaj Oh, gosh. You agree the pods are "visual spam" and you "hope they never come to Belli"? I guess you missed the other (now closed) thread which is all about them coming to Belli, the objections of me and a few others (during a period when the Lindens banned their creator for a day due to crashes and pile-ups). For a time, there was a possibility these pods might finally be regulated and put as "rez on demand" (my proposal). But no. Instead, not only are they back, Patch has gleefully informed us that new "fun projects" are in the works that extend the pods even further. So they are coming to Belli, like it or not. That is why I am not "keeping a focus". Because these are all problems with the same roots -- a few opinionated types, some of whom don't even log in or don't own property, overthrowing the Lindens -- who sometimes don't need overthrowing to do the bidding of their fans/alts.

Since 100% of the pods are empty (I started documenting this again as they resumed), to say they help exploration of SL is misguided. They don't. Actual vehicles and animals sold by creators and bought by users are what help explore SL.

Your notion that LL ignores the forums is belied by the saga with the pods, where we saw them banned, then restored due to clamoring only on the forums.

So now perhaps you can see where this is going.
 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Prokofy Neva

[Syo Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Many keep hammering on the idea that the game "isn't" commercial. Of course it is, and no amount of nay-saying can cancel that truth.

You keep repeating that over and over again, but never actually responding to any of the arguments that clearly explain why playing a game is not commercial activity. If you keep shouting the sky is purple with green dots for long enough, does it become "the truth"?

If I have a beautiful yacht and I keep using it on Bellis ocean and other residents see me and say "what a beautiful boat, driving it must be fun!" and then go and purchase this boat from its creator, is me sailing on Bellis ocean a commercial activity? Your reasoning is absurd.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Syo Emerald

[Rabid Cheetah]

Only read half the novel;  It's just not worth reading the whole thing or trying to have a clear-headed discussion if someone's gonna misinterpret what people have said repeatedly, put words in peoples' mouths, accuse GTFO of doing things it hasn't done, and developing a whole manifesto worthy of being posted to NaNoWriMo in November, all from a simple issue that they wouldn't even be aware of had I not created this thread.  I'm not wasting my time with reading anymore off-topic posts about signs or whatever.  That said, @Prokofy Neva, your views on  sky signage would be most appreciated in this thread: 

It's a lively discussion going on over there, with many viewpoints to ponder, yours included (if you post there).

Thanks again for, well, roleplaying here, sort of, what a neighbor's response might be like should I or my friends go forward with opening a GTFO hub in Belli.

Thanks also to other folks who have, via their discussion here, changed my opinion in the above thread, at least about the benefit of the presence of GTFO skysigns being indicative of rez zones.

And, oh:  Wait until you've calmed down a bit before you stumble across another thread I created.  I speak from personal experience that high blood pressure is nothing to take lightly.

 

[Dakota Linden]

Greetings, All!

Off Topic posts have been removed.  This is a conversation about GTFO on Linden Home regions, please stick to that topic and that topic only. Any and all other comments or topics will be removed. 

If you feel that you must comment on, or discuss, other topics, take it somewhere else. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

This thread has actually gotten me curious about trying this thing out.

Will need to figure out where I go to start getting involved, and if I do - then I can report back how much money I make / spend playing it - which I suspect will be a grand total of $0 after the initial 'buy the setup kit', but who knows, maybe I will get rich with all that sweet phat commerce.

That said, and being serious... I might look into this.

• I have a houseboat on one of the islands - Coral Bay region - has thought gone into 'routes' when you're on an island? I'm guessing the ideal RP is not to TP around...
• On mainland I know a lot of people put up warehouse designs. Anyone made something like a mailbox or delivery box design as their 'station' or whatever it's called on their linden homes?
• How much LI should I expect to need to set aside for anything I put on my land to tell other players 'this is your destination point'?
• This all sounds kind of like a more advanced (or at least longer existing) version of the Bellisseria trash pickup service RP. That about the concept? Go somewhere, do somethings related to pickup & drop off, go somewhere else, do some more things?

 

[Nika Talaj]

If you just want to play/haul, and you don't need to be a freight provider,  most folks start out (and many just stay with) the free version of the GTFO hud.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/GTFO-Game-Kit-FREE-DEMO-addwear-touch/15184491

Like the listing says, join the group and you'll get started up pretty quick, whatever level you want to play at.

[Fritigern Gothly]

2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That said, and being serious... I might look into this.

• I have a houseboat on one of the islands - Coral Bay region - has thought gone into 'routes' when you're on an island? I'm guessing the ideal RP is not to TP around...
• On mainland I know a lot of people put up warehouse designs. Anyone made something like a mailbox or delivery box design as their 'station' or whatever it's called on their linden homes?
• How much LI should I expect to need to set aside for anything I put on my land to tell other players 'this is your destination point'?
• This all sounds kind of like a more advanced (or at least longer existing) version of the Bellisseria trash pickup service RP. That about the concept? Go somewhere, do somethings related to pickup & drop off, go somewhere else, do some more things?

 

Let's see if I can answer your questions point-by-point:

• There aren't really any routes. You plot your own course from one hub to another (a hub is a destination). The HUD you'd be wearin will find for you the nearest hub to start from. 
• I like that mailbox idea. However, no actual objects are needed to become a hub. In principle it would even be possible for completely bare land to be a functioning hub. Possible, but boring. My point is that a hub can look like anything that the hub operator can think of, it's completely freeform (but must be in line with the covenant for the land it is on)
• That is a difficult one. Hubs typically allow rezzing on the hub's land. When I had my houseboat open as a public rez zone, before Belliseria has any LL rez zones, I tried to keep 100 LI free, but less is fine too. If I had to pluck a number out of thin air, if possible for you, I would suggest to keep 50 LI for people to be able rez most of their vehicles.
• Yes, pretty much. But the trash pickup seems to be a little less elaborate. Also, the bellibins can be picked up by anyone and thus anyone can become a destination, or what in GTFO! would be called a hub.

Do note that if you are "just" a player, your home does not automatically become a hub (or destination). To become a hub, you must apply for this status. Someone will come to your place to see if it's accessible to vehicles, which type of vehicles it can accomodate and how large these vehicles would be expected to be.
For example, if someone has a small air strip on their mainland, it would never be approved for large freight planes. So on a houseboat, no ocean steamers would come visit you which would look beyond ridiculous if they did 🙂, but small motor boats, row boats and jetskis could definitely be among your visitors.

To give you an idea of the game play: On days when I play I typically first wear my GTFO! HUD, then go to my nearest rez zone to rez my boat of choice. My HUD recognises that my boat's been rezzed and lets me know in local chat.
I click my HUD and choose the nearest hub (you only get to choose from hubs that can accomodate your vehicle based on type and size) and start traveling there. TP'ing there would be fine too, I'm just going to my starting point after all, but I like to just sail there.
Once there, I get to choose my cargo and my destination (there are many pages with destinations, the more pages you turn, the further away the shown hubs will be), after I make my choice of cargo and destination, I wait a short while while my cargo gets "loaded" and when done I will travel to my destination which I always hope will be nice and far away.
When I reach my destination, I unload the cargo, recieve my XP and fake money (which really are just points, they have zero value) and perhaps pick up another cargo.

It must be noted that there is no way at all to make any L$ from just playing the game. At the same time, after you buy the GTFO! HUD there are no additional expenses to be made. No micro transactions, no fees or other nonsense like that. There are lots of good free vehicles that you can use (my faves are free) but it is definitely possible to buy a vehicle (I have one that I paid 1k for) but all vehicles are by definition 3rd party products. If you already own a vehicle, it is possible that it is already GTFO! ready. All you would have to do then is put a script in and a notecard with the code for your vehicle and you'd be set to go. 

I know, this is a lot of text, but actually playing the game is much more fun than reading my ramblings 😉

 

[Mikkoto Takeda]

Why There's no GTFO Road Hub at Rez Zone with Docks? in Bellisseria? I think There's no Bellisseria Rez zone on the GTFO Hub Database? so. you can do an GTFO Haul From Heterocera to Jeogeot by Road and Passing the Bellisseria Roads by rezzing an GTFO Vehicle on the Rez Zone and Load the same cargo to The Elms. and fly me to the Ahndang to Load the GTFO Cargo to the DestinatioN!

[Fritigern Gothly]

1 hour ago, anuk2939mk2 said:

Why There's no GTFO Road Hub at Rez Zone with Docks? in Bellisseria? I think There's no Bellisseria Rez zone on the GTFO Hub Database? so. you can do an GTFO Haul From Heterocera to Jeogeot by Road and Passing the Bellisseria Roads by rezzing an GTFO Vehicle on the Rez Zone and Load the same cargo to The Elms. and fly me to the Ahndang to Load the GTFO Cargo to the DestinatioN!

Perhaps you should ask your questions in the GTFO! group or in the GTFO! discord.

[Mikkoto Takeda]

5 minutes ago, Fritigern Gothly said:

Perhaps you should ask your questions in the GTFO! group or in the GTFO! discord.

Asked Question on the Group. For Discord Waiting for someone reply soon!

[Rabid Cheetah]

2 hours ago, anuk2939mk2 said:

Why There's no GTFO Road Hub at Rez Zone with Docks? in Bellisseria? I think There's no Bellisseria Rez zone on the GTFO Hub Database? so. you can do an GTFO Haul From Heterocera to Jeogeot by Road and Passing the Bellisseria Roads by rezzing an GTFO Vehicle on the Rez Zone and Load the same cargo to The Elms. and fly me to the Ahndang to Load the GTFO Cargo to the DestinatioN!

Thanks for reminding me that having a GTFO Hub is one of my Belli goals.  I'll talk to my friend who owns a stilt I'm helping her decorate, and see if she's interested in having a GTFO Hub.

[Sister Nova]

4 hours ago, anuk2939mk2 said:

Why There's no GTFO Road Hub at Rez Zone with Docks? in Bellisseria? I think There's no Bellisseria Rez zone on the GTFO Hub Database? so. you can do an GTFO Haul From Heterocera to Jeogeot by Road and Passing the Bellisseria Roads by rezzing an GTFO Vehicle on the Rez Zone and Load the same cargo to The Elms. and fly me to the Ahndang to Load the GTFO Cargo to the DestinatioN!

Bellisseria is a residential continent, so would be good for the 'Messenger Bag' deliveries. But the ideal hub for 'Belli' is SPACE!!  (Unashamedly biased)

[Rabid Cheetah]

OK, what do I do again to make a parcel a GTFO HUD?

[Sister Nova]

7 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

OK, what do I do again to make a parcel a GTFO HUD?

It gives the contact in the Get The Freight Out group charter.

[Rabid Cheetah]

3 hours ago, Sister Nova said:

It gives the contact in the Get The Freight Out group charter.

Thanks, I'll look for it there.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/30/2021 at 6:41 AM, Rabid Cheetah said:

Thanks for reminding me that having a GTFO Hub is one of my Belli goals.  I'll talk to my friend who owns a stilt I'm helping her decorate, and see if she's interested in having a GTFO Hub.

The Lindens should keep GTFO out of Bellisseria. They have the power to do this, of course. 

[Fritigern Gothly]

On 6/11/2021 at 4:15 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens should keep GTFO out of Bellisseria. They have the power to do this, of course. 

GTFO has been in Bellisseria for years now and you never even noticed.

[Mikkoto Takeda]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:45 AM, Fritigern Gothly said:

GTFO has been in Bellisseria for years now and you never even noticed.

a year later. I think there's no GTFO Road Rez Zone over a years in Bellisseria I hope they would add a lot of GTFO Road Rez Zones to do Intercontinental GTFO Hauling from Point to Point like Heterocera to Jeogeot or Heterocera to Satori by Road! to be added by GTFO Staffs available. for Example The Elms and Paislee Springs to accommodate the GTFO road Cargo Transportation in Bellisseria!

Edited July 21, 2022 by anuk2939mk2
major edits. It's 2022 now!

[Sparkle Bunny]

Bellisseria is a residential area and the roads can get quite twisty in some themes; it's not best suited to road haulage, and residents tend not to stay in one location long enough to set up their own hubs.

You can still play GTFO on the waterways, or alternatively get yourself a dumper truck and empty some bins.