Sky Signs

[SneakyBooger]

Are "For Rent" skysigns an issue for people? Like do they bother you?

I know when I used to rent that was my main way I found land to rent everytime I moved. I always would look across the map for Rent skysigns then TP to them.

I'm just curious if people dislike these signs or don't have any issues with them.

How do you feel about them?

 

Edit: just so people don't get confused.

This question is about the skysigns that show up on the map not sale signs at ground level

Edited August 15, 2020 by SneakyBooger
Edit to prevent confusion

[ChinRey]

47 minutes ago, SneakyBooger said:

I know when I used to rent that was my main way I found land to rent everytime I moved. I always would look across the map for Rent skysigns then TP to them.

They can be quite convenient for people looking for mainland to buy too. If you see one of those signs on the map, stay at least one whole region away. At least one of those rental companies who use such signs are among the worst neighbours you can have.

[Cedric Brown]

I like the ability to advertise via the world map. Surprised "they" havent found a way to extract a fee from displaying signage on the map.

[Lindal Kidd]

I mildly dislike seeing them on the Map, or encountering them in world, but as long as they are properly constructed, I don't have a major problem with them.  One of their major drawbacks is that, even if they are invisible from below, they cast shadows.

They should be:

• phantom
• fully transparent, except on the top surface
• thin

[Qie Niangao]

51 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

One of their major drawbacks is that, even if they are invisible from below, they cast shadows.

I believe they only cast shadows once the viewer has rezzed the objects (so it's a win to put them as high as the Map will still see them -- about 400m -- so they're above most folks' draw distance from ground level). I'm not sure for how long they continue to cast shadows, though. Probably longer than they're on the interest list, but I doubt the whole time they're in the object cache. Need a viewer dev to tell us how this all works.

[Gabriele Graves]

My thoughts:

The signs can obviously be useful.

For those that don't know: One use is that aviators can look on the map and instantly see where airports are.  There is even standardised signage for this.  This is used a lot on mainland.  I definitely agree about the shadows, it is annoying.  It would be nice if even just that issue had a mitigation.  There is no doubt that sky signs are a nasty hack.  You cannot even use textures properly.  Signs have to be made up of coloured objects to show up.  So for text, the letters have to be made up with objects, you cannot simply make a single prim and texture it with what you want to say.

This is only hypothetical but LL could make a decision on whether overlaying what is essentially a user created texture on the map is something they want to support.  There is an inworld impact that could be removed whether they want to support doing this or decide it isn't desired.  I could definitely understand if they didn't want to.

However, if they did want to, one way to do that would be to add an extra map overlay texture box in the parcel details window.  They could use the parcel texture itself but I think having two textures gives more flexibility because the one in search really wants to be different.  There is potentially a boat load of technical hurdles to overcome and refinements to make but there is with pretty much with anything new that is added anyway.  The benefits to having "no inworld impact" for map signs are obvious but the cost/benefit assessment of the changes would still have to be decided, obviously.

Whether or not LL want to provide a better way or try to kill it altogether there still remains the issue of the existing signs. You could probably get rid of a lot of the existing ones from the map by only rendering non-phantom objects.  It wouldn't get rid of their inworld impact, especially if the parcel owner isn't paying attention or is MIA but then nothing is perfect.  At least the map would be cleaner and people would have to deliberately change their sign to make it into a blockage to activate it.  I cannot imagine aviators doing this for example but other bad actors might.  Active parcel owners would remove the extra objects if they aren't working because there is better use for that LI.

To be clear, I would vote for having a new way to achieve the same thing and not removal altogether.  Something along the lines of what I outline but I know a lot of people would prefer just having a cleaner map.  Everything can be subverted and abused but if we just remove everything that can be, we wouldn't really have anything to enjoy.
 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Gabriele Graves
corrections.

[Gabriele Graves]

42 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I believe they only cast shadows once the viewer has rezzed the objects (so it's a win to put them as high as the Map will still see them -- about 400m -- so they're above most folks' draw distance from ground level). I'm not sure for how long they continue to cast shadows, though. Probably longer than they're on the interest list, but I doubt the whole time they're in the object cache. Need a viewer dev to tell us how this all works.

 I see the shadows all the time, even at 32m draw distance.  They don't ever seem to disappear.

[SneakyBooger]

6 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 I see the shadows all the time, even at 32m draw distance.  They don't ever seem to disappear.

I just tested and oddly enough only when I make the bottoms transparent do they reflect shadows on the ground. If I leave them with no transparency I do not see shadows on the ground.

Edited August 15, 2020 by SneakyBooger
typo

[SneakyBooger]

No, I take that back, Im not sure how its working but there was no shadows on the ground until I made it transparent on the bottom but now that I made them transparent they showed. Then I removed the transparency and it was still showing. Very odd. It seems that Skysigns that have been up for over a day do not reflect shadows on the ground but newly placed ones are.

But this is kinda unrelated to my main question which is "Do (For Rent) type skysigns bother you"

Edited August 15, 2020 by SneakyBooger

[Gabriele Graves]

Hmmm, OK, I just tried doing that and no matter what I set the bottoms to, I still get the same.  I am using the FS EEP Beta though, so maybe it is different?

OK just seen your reply.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Gabriele Graves
First time I get to use strikeout!

[Pussycat Catnap]

The 'hearts' all over the map are extremely annoying.

As for the rotating for sale signs - some of them violate the old ad farm policy. It doesn't get carted out much these days as that era of problems is mostly resolved... but if you see such a sign I suggest looking up that old policy and seeing if the sign is in violation. Some of those people may have finally forgotten to skirt 0.0001m under the rules and so be ARable...

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 I see the shadows all the time, even at 32m draw distance.  They don't ever seem to disappear.

Really? My subjective recollection of trying to figure it out years ago was that I didn't see shadows from them (nor from skyboxes at 4000m) until I saw the objects themselves, and then the shadows (from both signs and skyboxes) would continue for as long as I was in the region -- definitely long after the objects were outside draw distance and interest list -- but then they'd be gone the next time I logged in. For a long time, though, I needed to flush my object cache between logins, so maybe that was what made them go away so reliably.

But if people see shadows from objects they've never rezzed at all, from far outside draw distance, then yeah: that would be a big drawback of those signs (and I'd have some to remove, myself).

[Gabriele Graves]

11 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Really? My subjective recollection of trying to figure it out years ago was that I didn't see shadows from them (nor from skyboxes at 4000m) until I saw the objects themselves, and then the shadows (from both signs and skyboxes) would continue for as long as I was in the region -- definitely long after the objects were outside draw distance and interest list -- but then they'd be gone the next time I logged in. For a long time, though, I needed to flush my object cache between logins, so maybe that was what made them go away so reliably.

But if people see shadows from objects they've never rezzed at all, from far outside draw distance, then yeah: that would be a big drawback of those signs (and I'd have some to remove, myself).

What I have experienced is with the sign I have had above my airstrip for a long while now.  I honestly cannot tell you about other places reliably.  I do have a skybox at around 1000m and don't see the shadow from that.  I do spend a fair amount of time at my place and so the object is probably in the cache a lot.  I don't clear my cache a lot.  I'll have to check at other places to be sure though.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Gabriele Graves
correction.

[Ardy Lay]

I often wish the ~399 meter "signs" were on a World Map layer I could turn off, like land sales.

[Marianne Little]

Now I worry about the platforms I set up for unpacking and editing stuff. They are 2200 m up in Bellisseria, and 1000 m up on mainland. I have transparent bottom on them - do I terrorize people on the ground without knowing it? I have never seen shadow from them, but I do not use "noon" when the sun is direct over me.

[Lindal Kidd]

2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I do have a skybox at around 1000m and don't see the shadow from that. 

I'd expect that.  Ground textures are not rezzed above 1000m, and I suspect that it's mutual.  To appear on the Map, advertising prims must be positioned below 400m.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Lindal Kidd

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Really? My subjective recollection of trying to figure it out years ago was that I didn't see shadows from them (nor from skyboxes at 4000m) until I saw the objects themselves, and then the shadows (from both signs and skyboxes) would continue for as long as I was in the region -- definitely long after the objects were outside draw distance and interest list -- but then they'd be gone the next time I logged in.

That is correct, once the sky installation is downloaded to the viewer, it will keep casting shadow until you relog. Or something like that. There seems to be some limit to how close an object needs to be to cast a shadow but that limit is a bit outside the draw distance.

[BJoyful]

I use Map like a RL map, so I find the sky signs 'in my way' and I don't like them but they don't bother me enough to be a big issue.  I do like having public places like Airports marked but I would like them to be semi-transparent or alpha'd around the Airport info ...or have a thoroughfare marked and if there is a way to enter/exit or not.

I have often wondered if others use Map to navigate or route-plan, especially pilots.  (maybe there is some kind of marking for pilots on them which I just don't realize)  If there is no symbol or sign, how do pilots know which direction the Approach is if the map is covered with one of those Region-sized signs?  I'm not a pilot but I do love to route plan before driving or sailing, so I have been ignoring visiting places if a road or waterway disappears under one of those signs with no obvious entrance and exit.  If I know the land by visiting on ground first, I will 'see' through the Map-covered areas and proceed accordingly.  When exploring unfamiliar places I look for the easiest or most visually interesting features to explore on the ground and I consider the obliterating signs as welcome as persistent pop-up ads... not very welcome or helpful.

The inworld over-the-ground signs which dangle/whirl/blink messages are a bit like visiting Las Vegas! 

[MoiraKathleen]

On 8/20/2020 at 4:33 PM, BJoyful said:

I use Map like a RL map, so I find the sky signs 'in my way' and I don't like them but they don't bother me enough to be a big issue.  I do like having public places like Airports marked but I would like them to be semi-transparent or alpha'd around the Airport info ...or have a thoroughfare marked and if there is a way to enter/exit or not.

I have often wondered if others use Map to navigate or route-plan, especially pilots.  (maybe there is some kind of marking for pilots on them which I just don't realize)  If there is no symbol or sign, how do pilots know which direction the Approach is if the map is covered with one of those Region-sized signs?  I'm not a pilot but I do love to route plan before driving or sailing, so I have been ignoring visiting places if a road or waterway disappears under one of those signs with no obvious entrance and exit.  If I know the land by visiting on ground first, I will 'see' through the Map-covered areas and proceed accordingly.  When exploring unfamiliar places I look for the easiest or most visually interesting features to explore on the ground and I consider the obliterating signs as welcome as persistent pop-up ads... not very welcome or helpful.

The inworld over-the-ground signs which dangle/whirl/blink messages are a bit like visiting Las Vegas! 

I use the map for rough route exploration and planning before heading off on a mainland exploration.  During travel I generally use the mini-map for navigation, but do stop periodically and bring up the map to double check where I am or an overview of where I'll be heading. 

The big sky signs on the map don't really bother me.  The ones that I know are for sky homes are usually a good indicator to be careful passing by them, as some of them have security orbs even at the mainland ground level.  Some of the sky signs which have remained over a parcel for a long time - either associated with a store located there or just some comment the parcel owner wanted to make - can be helpful if you're looking for someplace on the map and you remember that it was by the big 'xyz' sky sign.   

[Axel Naxos]

On 15/08/2020 at 07:45, Cedric Brown said:

Gosto da capacidade de anunciar no mapa mundial. Surpreso, "eles" não encontraram uma maneira de cobrar uma taxa pela exibição de sinalização no mapa.

I hope "they" don't read this idea ... 🤫

[Rabid Cheetah]

Can't stand the de-beautification of the World Map.  In particular, those giant hearts all over the place.  It kills the simulation feel of a virtual world seen from above.  I don't see how these sky signs are effective advertising, anymore than cluttering up the roads with rotating signs on 4 by 4 parcels.  Such a waste of effort, better spent on Search and a strong MP presence.  But what do I know, I'm not a merchant or land baron.  Maybe the sight of a giant "FER SALE!!!" sign on the World Map makes people experience rapture and ecstasy, ready to fork their Lindybucks over by the shovel-full.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Rabid Cheetah

[ChinRey]

1 minute ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Can't stand the de-beautification of the World Map.  In particular, those giant hearts all over the place.  It kills the simulation feel of a virtual world seen from above.

Yes but as it is right now, the software that generates the map tiles doesn't support mesh. Until that bug has been fixed, the map is so messed up anyway.

[Rabid Cheetah]

Not seeing what mesh has to do with it.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Rabid Cheetah
me hate typos

[Ardy Lay]

Mesh and sculpted prims are rendered as some other shape on the world map.  When I filed a bug report about this some years ago it was refiled as a feature request with priority of “nice to have“.

What I would pursue here is:   Do these huge signs that show on the world map violate Second Life terms of service and / or community standards?

If they do not then perhaps an appeal to Linden Lab for some consideration of the sensibilities of the offended parties is in order.  I once suggested that the objects at this height could be rendered to an optionally viewable layer similar to how land for sale and auction is.  As an efficiency option, instead of rendering such from in-world objects, offer an option on parcels to show the parcel profile image on the world map as an optional layer then ban in-world map signs.

Those that claim they use the large objects for privacy reasons are likely to raise a fuss but there is always an inappropriately loud and self-righteous vocal minority.  The rest of us are apparently already aware of what the real privacy tools in Second Life are and have more reasonable expectations.

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Not seeing what mash has to do with it.

Here's Coniston as it is displayed on the map:

Here's how it actually looks. Do you notice any difference?

The reason for this is, as Ardy said, that all meshes are replaced with some weird prim shapes on the map. The result is that the map is pretty much useless for any mesh based region.

What's really annoying is that LL actually has a fix. @Grumpity Linden showed us some really good map tiles with proper mesh displays almost two years ago. They just never got around to implement it.