Prim Count for Visiting Boats

[Rabid Cheetah]

Hello.  My friend/fellow group member landed a houseboat right next to mine.  We both have about 30 prims left on each parcel, which we've decided not to over-stuff to to the brim with prims so that we can rez boats from time to time.  But we're also friendly folks, so we don't mind if explorers want to dock at our places, take a look at our homes, the other houseboats, or the Trad/Vic 'hood we're adjacent to.  We've got a nice long return-item set, as well as object-entry set to yes.  We even put up a sign (mainly because someone a few houseboats down has a grrr private docking only sign lol, so we wanna clarify that it's OK to dock at OUR parcels).  What I'm curious about is how does that object entry work for non-group members:

1.  There's no effect -- The prim count is only for the parcel owner/group owner, so someone could enter the parcel with a 5000-prim mega-yacht and be fine.

2.  Individual prim count -- Visitors will be limited by the individual parcel's available prims, which again is about 30.

3.  Group prim count -- Group prim count -- Visitors will be limited by the group's REGIONAL available prims, which is about 60.

Thanks for any info.  Of course, I could just ask a few other friends who aren't in the group to drive their mega-yachts in to see what happens, but given my silly sense of humor they might be suspicious that I've seeded the waters with mines, hee hee!

 

[Mollymews]

without testing to check then am pretty sure when we attempt to cross into a parcel on a mega-prim yatch we get the parcel full advice

except when the vehicle we are sitting on has been set PRIM_TEMP_ON_REZ = TRUE then the vehicle only counts against the region's temporary prim allowance

edit add: At least until the driver stand up that is

Edited August 12, 2020 by Mollymews

[Sister Nova]

With object entry set to everyone, providing the vessel is within the prim limit of the parcel then it should be fine until the auto return kicks in.

I believe that regional available prims will only work on land deeded to, and thus owned by a group. The parcels have two separate owners even if the group is set the same on both. I’ve never tested this, so am prepared to be proved wrong  but I’m pretty sure it’s the owner that’s the unifying agent.

[LittleMe Jewell]

17 hours ago, Sister Nova said:

With object entry set to everyone, providing the vessel is within the prim limit of the parcel then it should be fine until the auto return kicks in.

I believe that regional available prims will only work on land deeded to, and thus owned by a group. The parcels have two separate owners even if the group is set the same on both. I’ve never tested this, so am prepared to be proved wrong  but I’m pretty sure it’s the owner that’s the unifying agent.

I don't know about the object entry part, but you are definitely correct about the group versus parcel part.  The sharing of LI across multiple parcels in a region only applies to parcels that are deeded to the group,  not just set to group.

Edited August 13, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell

[Rabid Cheetah]

15 hours ago, Sister Nova said:

With object entry set to everyone, providing the vessel is within the prim limit of the parcel then it should be fine until the auto return kicks in.

I believe that regional available prims will only work on land deeded to, and thus owned by a group. The parcels have two separate owners even if the group is set the same on both. I’ve never tested this, so am prepared to be proved wrong  but I’m pretty sure it’s the owner that’s the unifying agent.

OOOOO, good point.  I should test this by deliberately dumping test prims on one parcel until it's full, and see if it can still take more prims due to the other parcel having availability.

[Rabid Cheetah]

11 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I don't know about the object entry part, but you are definitely correct  about the group versus parcel part.  The sharing of LI across multiple parcels in a region only applies to parcels that are deeded to the group,  not just set to group.

Yeah, totally forgot LH's aren't deeded.  So used to doing stuff on the Mainland with my friends.  So it sounds like visitors will have to have smaller prim-count vessels.  Standing up shouldn't be an issue due to the time we give to explore the area:  Auto-return is set to three hours.  Why three hours?  Ask Gilligan lol

 

[PrudenceAnton]

I would not leave a parcel return set to longer than the recommended 3-5 minutes. It leaves it open to Griefers to cause havioc.  Also, we opened our Blues Cafe to anyone can rez for a few minute for someone to rez and item. It was over our allotment and a few of my items got returned. So I'd take to the time to test out what works and what doesn't, so you don't end up with a headache. Very nice of you to offer people the chance to dock or rez though.

[Abnor Mole]

Object Entry does not affect vehicles driven by an avatar. What it does allow is someone to rez an object someplace else and edit move it into your parcel (or a scripted object to move itself into your parcel) where it will then count against your LI limits. Someone sailing a boat into your parcel would likely not be affected by Object Entry not allowed. When they step OFF the boat, the boat then counts against your prim allowance and is subject to autoreturn. If you don't have Build enabled the boat is returned immediately. 

If you want people to be able to rez boats or dock at your parcel to visit, my recommendation is to set the parcel to a group that is not open enrollment and have Build enabled with a reasonable autoreturn time... and leave enough LI open on the parcel to support the average boat. That's all you need to do really. 

And sorry, you won't be able to share LI with your friend's parcel.😢

[Rabid Cheetah]

Thanks, folks, for the info.  OK, so if I've got less than 175 prims of group stuff on an LH parcel, someone enters with an object that pushes the prim count over the limit, auto-return will return the older objects (in terms of when they were placed on the parcel), even if they are owned by the group the land is set to?  It wouldn't just zap the new boat or whatever?

[Abnor Mole]

12 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Thanks, folks, for the info.  OK, so if I've got less than 175 prims of group stuff on an LH parcel, someone enters with an object that pushes the prim count over the limit, auto-return will return the older objects (in terms of when they were placed on the parcel), even if they are owned by the group the land is set to?  It wouldn't just zap the new boat or whatever?

If an object tries to move into a parcel that does not have enough available LI (prims) to support the object, the movement is disallowed. The owner of the object gets an error message that the object cannot be moved because the parcel does not have enough LI for the object in a similar fashion as when they try to rez an object on a parcel that does not have enough available LI. 

Edit: If it is a vehicle they drove into the parcel and they stand up the system handles it similar to a rezzing event. If the object is more LI than the parcel can support, that object is returned to them. Your objects are not affected. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by Abnor Mole

[Rabid Cheetah]

5 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

If an object tries to move into a parcel that does not have enough available LI (prims) to support the object, the movement is disallowed. The owner of the object gets an error message that the object cannot be moved because the parcel does not have enough LI for the object in a similar fashion as when they try to rez an object on a parcel that does not have enough available LI. 

Edit: If it is a vehicle they drove into the parcel and they stand up the system handles it similar to a rezzing event. If the object is more LI than the parcel can support, that object is returned to them. Your objects are not affected. 

Thank you for the clarification.  That's how I thought it worked.  @PrudenceAnton So what made your stuff go poof at Blues Cafe?

[PrudenceAnton]

4 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

Thank you for the clarification.  That's how I thought it worked.  @PrudenceAnton So what made your stuff go poof at Blues Cafe?

It was not an object entry, but opening the parcel for others to rez prims and when they did, it went over limit, sending a few of our own items back, instead of a message saying the parcel was too full.  

[Rabid Cheetah]

1 hour ago, PrudenceAnton said:

It was not an object entry, but opening the parcel for others to rez prims and when they did, it went over limit, sending a few of our own items back, instead of a message saying the parcel was too full.  

That is very odd, and, as far as I know, not how things are supposed to work.  Sounds like a glitch.

[Coby Foden]

I was once playing with twisted prims in my old Linden home parcel. All was well until I added materials to the prim. The LI of the prim went to crazy high number! Sure enough the system deleted the prim instantly. The weird thing was that also all of my friend's items and all of my alt's items got deleted. 😬 🤷‍♀️

[Rabid Cheetah]

1 hour ago, Coby Foden said:

I was once playing with twisted prims in my old Linden home parcel. All was well until I added materials to the prim. The LI of the prim went to crazy high number! Sure enough the system deleted the prim instantly. The weird thing was that also all of my friend's items and all of my alt's items got deleted. 😬 🤷‍♀️

That doesn't make any sense.  I would have opened a ticket about something like that.

[Aethelwine]

1 hour ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

That doesn't make any sense.  I would have opened a ticket about something like that.

It is weird, but it makes sense. Adding materials changes the way land impact is calculated it gets treated like mesh. I have had the same experience with a prim counting over 100 li

[Rabid Cheetah]

3 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

It is weird, but it makes sense. Adding materials changes the way land impact is calculated it gets treated like mesh. I have had the same experience with a prim counting over 100 li

Of course mesh is causing it.  Of course.

*sigh*  I just had my 14th anniversary of my rez day.  This game used to be so simple.  So many of the problems with the new and "improved" SL can be traced back to mesh.  Pixel snobbery, LOD issues, clothing incompatibility, object resizing issues vis-a-vis prim count, object creation complexity making high-quality items beyond the capabilities of the common user, and now this.  The price we pay for pretty.

But I digress.  It's still odd that older prims are being returned.  One would think that the system of LIFO (Last In/First Out) would still be the way that the SL software works when returning prims, and that object manipulations that exceed parcel prim limits would return objects in the first place -- the object in question would revert to the size and Li it had prior to the changes that pushed it over the limit, in the same way that trying to move an object beyond the parcel boundaries results in the software returning the object to it's original position.

[Aethelwine]

In my case I was retexturing path cut prims used as roads and had been there for sometime. LIFO might still apply in Cobys case if the objects they were applying materials to predated those that were returned

[Rabid Cheetah]

Ahah!  I'll bet that's it.  The changed object, while now blasting the Li through the roof, was still older than the other stuff.  That would make sense -- well, beyond such a serious design flaw in the SL software being indicative of a dev team that thinks first about the "oh wow gee whiz" of implementing new tech, and not actual user ease and application of the new tech, something I've encountered on countless jobs while acting as a liaison between dev teams and actual users.  Ah, the joys of tech support.  I'm sure there's some reason why the software HAS TO work this way, but what a headache it can cause for users, such as you and Cobys loosing objects.

Wow.  All this discussion from just putting up a boat docking sign lol

[Coby Foden]

6 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

In my case I was retexturing path cut prims used as roads and had been there for sometime. LIFO might still apply in Cobys case if the objects they were applying materials to predated those that were returned

Actually the prim I was plying with was the newest object in the parcel. It was a torus prim, I twisted and changed it in all possible ways with the edit tool. It was interesting looking "piece of art" 😄.  All the time it remained 1 LI item. Then I added materials to give it some nice shininess and it suddenly was over 300 LI object! Of course a 512 m2 parcel could not hold it so it was deleted at once by the system, and some other items were deleted too. Maybe the system got a bit confused about what to delete to return things back to normal? 😬

I knew that adding materials would increase the LI of the prim. But I was not aware that it would go up so crazy much.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Coby Foden

[Nika Talaj]

1 hour ago, Coby Foden said:

Actually the prim I was plying with was the newest object in the parcel. It was a torus prim, I twisted and changed it in all possible ways with the edit tool. It was interesting looking "piece of art" 😄.  All the time it remained 1 LI item. Then I added materials to give it some nice shininess and it suddenly was over 300 LI object! Of course a 512 m2 parcel could not hold it so it was deleted at once by the system, and some other items were deleted too. Maybe the system got a bit confused about what to delete to return things back to normal? 😬

I knew that adding materials would increase the LI of the prim. But I was not aware that it would go up so crazy much.

 

21 hours ago, PrudenceAnton said:

It was not an object entry, but opening the parcel for others to rez prims and when they did, it went over limit, sending a few of our own items back, instead of a message saying the parcel was too full.  

I've had a seemingly random selection of items deleted/returned when messing around with linking, physics types, or retexturing.  Suddenly the LI model will be applied to a seemingly innocuous item, and the LI goes through the roof.  Before you can undo it, poof things begin to disappear.

Often some older things from specific avatars will disappear in addition to the offending item.  I've returned to using sandboxes for big or risky edits, particularly when working with prefabs - not being familiar with what tricks the maker used to manage LI can cost you big time!

I wish I understood how SL decides what to delete.  It seems to me that it has something to do with what avatar owns the objects.  It looks sort of like a race condition happens, where the current parcel LI is not recalculated after every deletion.  Instead, it seems as if quite a few things get deleted before SL notices that the parcel LI is ok.  @Abnor Mole, can you shed some light again?

[Rabid Cheetah]

I don't even know what "adding materials" means.  I just do old-fashioned prim stuff, like we did 14 years ago, or rez a bought object/vehicle. 

[Coby Foden]

9 hours ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

I don't even know what "adding materials" means.  I just do old-fashioned prim stuff, like we did 14 years ago, or rez a bought object/vehicle. 

There are three kinds of textures which can be added to an item's surface.

• Diffuse map - (this is the one which is commonly known as "texture")

• Normal map - (this gives the bumpiness effect)
• Specular map - (this gives the dynamic shininess which changes it's appearance with lighting conditions)

In the old times we had only the diffuse map available.
Later LL added normal map and specular map, these two are the materials.

The materials (normal map and specular map) can be added to any SL object type: prim, sculpted prim and mesh.
To see the material effects Advanced Lighting Model [AKA: ALM] must be enabled in the viewer.

Why to use materials? The short answer is that they give additional reality and beauty to an object - if they are properly used.

 

[Rabid Cheetah]

OH!  I play with those in the texture tab all the time, just to see what they do.  But I've never had my creations suddenly increase in prim count, anymore than stretching them will.  Note that I've yet to make a mesh object.

[Coby Foden]

1 hour ago, Rabid Cheetah said:

OH!  I play with those in the texture tab all the time, just to see what they do.  But I've never had my creations suddenly increase in prim count, anymore than stretching them will.  Note that I've yet to make a mesh object.

If a prim is not twisted and "tortured" a lot then adding materials does not change the LI. But in some cases the LI can increase lot, really lot. One of the worst prim shapes is a torus. When it's twisted lot and materials are added then bad things will happen with crazy high LI.

Here's one  example. This twisted torus prim was a beast. Without materials 1 LI.
Materials added, new LI calculation took effect and it went over 300 LI.