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hello, what is done to combat abuse?
it looks like an abandoned place, where people
freely use flying, tp, and speed huds
does anyone care about that?
spoils the fun and experience of many
we can report, but it is often difficult to get the photo in the moment, and once we report we cannot follow the case, we do not know what was actually done with the report
I stopped reporting a long time ago, because I see who already reported using huds
this is very unpleasant

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in the previous original version of Linden Realms there were no constraints on using booster scripts or using standard viewer control techniques like  double-click teleport, etc

then people started using boosters and double-click teleport to dig out green and blue crystals that rezzed inside trees and rocks etc. And in some cases green/blue crystals were rezzed up in the sky above the height we could jump to normally, so use a booster to get them

then people started using these techniques everywhere. Then people started using dedicated bot viewers to totally crush the game

in response to complaints from users who didn't know about, or wanted to use these methods, Linden started putting in game behaviour controls. Turned off teleport on most arena regions. Put in sentinels (cloud puffers) to monitor speed. Exceed the speed then the sentinels would kill you, send you home

the sentinels became just another part of the game, how to beat them. And also exploiting the sentinels to kill (send home) another player in the game without getting killed (sent home) yourself

is an arms race all of this. How far does the game maker go to counter combat the players moves/responses to changes in the game

i haven't played the new version of the game as much as I did the original game, but if Linden do go down the sentinel path again then people will again work out how to use/defeat the sentinels to their own game advantage.  Defeating sentinels is kinda intrinsic to game play in games like Linden Realms, in the sense that a cloud puffer sentinel is seen as no different from say a rock monster or poison water or a collapsing cavern roof, etc

this is not to say that Linden should do nothing, just that automated sentinels are not easy to make and can introduce unexpected side effects. Like players working how how to weaponise the sentinels and use them against other players in the game

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19 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

If LL only implemented THIS then they wouldn't have to waste a ton of scripted overhead detecting all possible script enhanced cheating vectors.

true with a but

but a lot of avatar models require purpose-built scripts to function.  Am not sure that Linden would want to get into a situation where at least on a Linden-made game we must wear a game-capable avatar outfit

i can tho see this being useful for resident-made games

about the no-script hack. Am not totally sure because I haven't tested it extensively but I think Linden broke this for attachments, seems the hack now only works with HUD scripts

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

but a lot of avatar models require purpose-built scripts to function.

Purpose-built scripts tied to custom avatars typically entails animations or AO's.

They're SOL as far as I'm concerned. That's why this is a parcel/region setting and not defacto.

It will be up to the land owner if they want to decide that flipping the switch is worth impacting anything worn, regardless of how "essential" it is to the wearer.

Edited by Lucia Nightfire
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5 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Purpose-built scripts tied to custom avatars typically entails animations or AO's.

They're SOL as far as I'm concerned.

AOs don't need active scripts and deformers can be applied manually, so they're not even SOL. 

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it won't stop the cheating in games when the reward is worth it.  Game enhanced client viewer. This kind of viewer killed the once quite popular racehorse breeding and racing games

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16 hours ago, nafys said:

hello, what is done to combat abuse?
it looks like an abandoned place, where people
freely use flying, tp, and speed huds
does anyone care about that?

People do care and they do what they can to try and get it stopped but it doesn't get stopped. When i was still allowed in the Realms in the bad old days when it was unregulated and had just been opened to the great unwashed (i remember visiting when it was a premium only area that could be accessed through a portal in a premium sandbox when mesh first made it to the gird) there were people in the most lucrative areas using speed HUDs tools and bots scripted to rapidly scoop up all the high value crystals no one else got a look in.
When i returned from some time away due to ongoing health issues LL had implemented the Sentinel clouds that were activated by someone using a speed enhancer or flying but people found other ways to abuse the realms by using bots that would block the highest value crystals from rezzing then only move the bots when there was no possibility anyone else could get the crystals.
Use laggers and graphic crashers the crashers started out as rainbow coloured worn mesh objects then they got made invisible.
People would also use griefer tools to try and get people kicked out orbiters were quite common if you could do a force ground sit the moment you were targeted only the griefer would get sent home. I don't recall other than one or two people anyone getting banned for this. I'm unwelcome because i foolishly tried to enter somewhere i discovered on the map i shouldn't have though i'm sure my ability to Realm that got me a lot of flack may have contributed

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7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

AOs don't need active scripts and deformers can be applied manually, so they're not even SOL. 

IKR. Attempting to cull those aspects are not part of that feature's purpose.

7 hours ago, Mollymews said:

it won't stop the cheating in games when the reward is worth it.  Game enhanced client viewer. This kind of viewer killed the once quite popular racehorse breeding and racing games

Not saying implementing that feature means NO checks for cheating.

Games like that can incorporate RNG and/or QTE instead of relying on the same static control inputs over a static time frame, basically anything to derail a TASbot, heh.

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Posted (edited)

hello guys, i'm in Secondlife for just over a year, my language is portuguese from brazil (so sorry for any mistake)
I realize that to many experienced people putting their analysis and improvements, I unfortunately didn’t know SL before 2019, so I can only talk about today,
can you ask me a question, the system has no human intervention?
I mean, the place that helps players earn their lindens, have fun and socialize meet people, which is: Linden Realms.
the presence of someone who is there for (or who appears there)
with a tag identifying it, doesn't it?
I know and I’ve already collected many crystals, staying there for hours, and when there’s your effort, seeing your reward is nice,
bad when we look at people who only think of themselves
harming others is very sad.
what I’ve seen and gone through must be little by the story that all of you over the years have
what made me sad, was to take beginners to collect and make a mission, and realize that against those who use hud to have advantages, they beginners never manage to get the green crystal they need, it gets tiring and they leave. I like Linden Realms. amuse me
but that's it
human action exists at Linden Realms ?
Thank you all for the attention
and thanks for sharing your comments

378/5000
 
 
 
I wanted to share my video where I can put together many crystals with effort and dedication, but I don't know if I could post here.
I hope Linden Realms is better, with your knowledge,
and that people who destroy the fun and joy of the place, one day can look at their monitor and see their reflection look at themselves and ask themselves: is it just what I do?
Edited by nafys
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I take the opportunity and ask a question:

I have a rented plot, and when I close the plot, I block it so I can’t find anything on the floor
with my parcel closed, is it possible for someone in the neighboring parcel to use an attack hud that will hit something in my parcel?
since already thank you
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On 7/16/2020 at 10:41 AM, nafys said:

I know and I’ve already collected many crystals, staying there for hours, and when there’s your effort, seeing your reward is nice,
bad when we look at people who only think of themselves
harming others is very sad.

I have run across people who seem to think that "all green crystals belong to them", despite they are just standing in a safe zone and watching other players collect green crystals with their cam.  I am not sure where this entitled attitude comes from, but there is nothing in the LR rules that say everyone  must only take one green crystal, or you are a meanie that harm others.  This is a game, not a charity.

Finding  the green crystals is a combination of skill and luck.  I have never used any "speed hud" and have always found my first green crystal in the first hour of play.  Sometimes I am lucky and find several greenies in the first region I enter.  But since I am collecting ALL colors of crystals to cash in later, while I am running all over the regions looking for a green crystal I am also collecting the more common crystals.  My rule of thumb is that I will find a green crystal by the time I have collected 100 orange ones.  It seldom fails.  Knowing where and when to look, what the cycle state of the crystals for each region is, and who is competing for crystals, is all part of the skill set.  

I can't remember the time when someone using a "speed hud" stole one of "my" green crystals.  If they got it first it was because they were closer then I was, meaning they arrived first.  For the first few months after opening the new LR, there were a few notorious players that were both flying and speeding, usually with a tiny invisible body to reduce detection.  They seem to have all been banned, since I never see them anymore.  In fact I am usually the only player in regions where you are most likely to find a green crystal.  And if there is one, there are usually more, including some blue crystals.  There are also times when some regions just turn off crystal generation for an hour or more.  In which case, you reenter the portal to a different LR.  Regions get broken all the time - its part of the game to recognize that, and simply find one that is working.

 

 

 

Edited by Jaylinbridges
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Linden Realms... a wretched hive of scum and villainy. It's been a cheater's playground since it opened, as with anything that gives away free money. Camping chairs ended for the same reason. So did the "First Land" project. The only way to stop cheaters is to stop the possibility of earning L$ from playing it.

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16 minutes ago, Lewis Luminos said:

Linden Realms... a wretched hive of scum and villainy. It's been a cheater's playground since it opened, as with anything that gives away free money. Camping chairs ended for the same reason. So did the "First Land" project. The only way to stop cheaters is to stop the possibility of earning L$ from playing it.

Grossly False!  How do you "cheat" when collecting crystals?  You haven't been there for years, if ever, based on your silly comments.

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@Jaylinbridges 

you quoted part of my text, to put your opinion.
I just say that: anyone who stays there with the map open, in 30 minutes will see a large number of people using hud, in account with payment confirmations or accounts with less than one day or accounts with more than 1,2,3 ,Four years.
so I end my posts by saying:
if a person stays there for days on end and collects his crystals without needing a hud, congratulations to him, because he is doing what he wants and likes.
now for those who are there using hud, who have 1 day or years of account. that these are penalized
I created the posts looking for information if the punishments are applied, because of the amount of people who use it, it seemed to me that there is not being done human verification, so, as I had doubts I came to this forum to know!

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On 7/17/2020 at 5:19 AM, Lucia Nightfire said:

IKR. Attempting to cull those aspects are not part of that feature's purpose.

Not saying implementing that feature means NO checks for cheating.

Games like that can incorporate RNG and/or QTE instead of relying on the same static control inputs over a static time frame, basically anything to derail a TASbot, heh.

 i have always thought that the way to monitor player behaviour is to do this in the player HUD

dunno about the new version but in the old version of the game the game let you play when the HUD wasn't attached. What used to happen was the HUD sometimes wouldn't attach on arrival, but the game server worked on the basis that it had. A technical glitch this, as normally when we detached the HUD it sent us home, which can't happen when the HUD is not attached to begin with

what should happen is that the game HUD pings the server periodically (player uuid, VALID | NOT_VALID). When the server doesn't get the ping then it informs the region sentinel which sends the player home

the HUD should monitor the players speed, idle time, arena sitting, and such. Exceed the game limits and the HUD pings the server (NOT_VALID) Server to sentinel, send home

as all the game monitoring is being done on the LSL serverside engine then it doesn't matter whether the player is a bot or not at least in terms of the game limits. Where a player and/or bot can still eke out an advantage is with a crystal radar, but these kinds of radars are already built in to some TPVs so is not a huge advantage

 

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

as all the game monitoring is being done on the LSL serverside engine then it doesn't matter whether the player is a bot or not at least in terms of the game limits. Where a player and/or bot can still eke out an advantage is with a crystal radar, but these kinds of radars are already built in to some TPVs so is not a huge advantage

With game environments that involve crossing variable terrain, you end up trying to detect all possible humanly-impossible scenarios.

That involves a ton of overhead.

Some things the LR anti-cheat montiors had a hard time discerning between natural and cheating were jump distances, jump hang times, jumps from one altitude to a lower altitude, falls from one altitude to a lower altitude, running down sloped land, jumping on a object/platform and immediately off, etc.

If you only allow scripts affiliated with the game to run, you won't have to burn overhead on such checking.

1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

Where a player and/or bot can still eke out an advantage is with a crystal radar, but these kinds of radars are already built in to some TPVs so is not a huge advantage

There is one thing LL could offer in that regard and it is similar to what happens when you are banned from a parcel.

No object param information is sent to the viewer.

This means you won't see anything in Area Search type lists.

The objects are still rendered on screen, if you see them, that is.

A viewer could still be coded to detect specific mesh UUID's though.

You'd still want to use some obfuscation tactics with goal objects, such as have the same visual color pallete for each collectable type making the value only known upon collecting.

Or have all goal objects in the same container/treasure chest that a central service tracks and rewards accordingly.

 

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5 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

With game environments that involve crossing variable terrain, you end up trying to detect all possible humanly-impossible scenarios.

That involves a ton of overhead.

Some things the LR anti-cheat montiors had a hard time discerning between natural and cheating were jump distances, jump hang times, jumps from one altitude to a lower altitude, falls from one altitude to a lower altitude, running down sloped land, jumping on a object/platform and immediately off, etc.

If you only allow scripts affiliated with the game to run, you won't have to burn overhead on such checking.

just some thoughts on this part

the way the orginal LR monitoring was done, jumping up wasn't much of a problem. Jumping down was a problem. Because the SL falling speed is faster than the SL running speed then the sentinel speedcheck (as was wrote) killed when jumping/falling down

when the monitoring is in the player HUD rather than by an external sentinel then is a whole lot simpler. For example some player HUD pcode:

 

timer()
{
   integer info = llGetAgentInfo(player_id);
   integer invalid = (info & AGENT_FLYING) > 0;
   if (!invalid)
   {
      if (info & (AGENT_IN_AIR|AGENT_WALKING|AGENT_RUNNING)))
         invalid = speedCheck(info);
   }
   if (invalid)
      llDetachFromAvatar();  // detaching HUD sends the player home
   else // is valid
   {
      if (isTimeToPing())
         sendPingToServer(player_id, llGetRegionName());
   }
}

attach(key id)
{
   if (id == NULL_KEY)
      llTeleportAgentHome(player_id);
}

on not receiving a ping within the allowed time (player has no HUD) then server sends a kill(player_id) message to the sentinel on the region (or the sentinels on all regions when is more than 1 region arena)

sentinel watches for player to be/appear on their region. If so then kill (llTeleportAgentHome), else after some time sentinel drops the player from its kill list

 

edit add:  a FYI for people reading who might be into wanting to create these kinds of games

in speedCheck then check info.  The allowable speed for falling when AGENT_IN_AIR is greater/faster than AGENT_RUNNING. Knowing this then we check them independently to return invalid TRUE or FALSE

and because we are allowing faster AGENT_IN_AIR speed, then a player with their own jump booster will obtain the same jump up speed as fall down speed, which puts players who do not have a jump booster of their own at a disadvantage. A way to equalise this is to put a jump booster in our HUD boosting jump up to the same speed as fall down

 

 

Edited by Mollymews
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Again, not saying anything is impossible.

With enough overhead you can get close to detecting all scenarios, but you have to determine if the resource use is worth it.

If we simply had a parcel setting to truly block script events except from allowed experience scripts, you could cut out almost all overhead looking for vectors that are commonly created from public script use.

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when we want to exclude players who run scripts not ours then we can do this with OBJECT_RUNNING_SCRIPT_COUNT

kill player who is not wearing our game HUD. When our game HUD has say 1 running script then kill player when OBJECT_RUNNING_SCRIPT_COUNT > 1

edit add: basically what I am getting at is that while disabling all scripts except for our experiences scripts is a nice to have, we can already exclude players from our games who use non-game scripts when that is what we want to do as a game operator

and when we think about the social aspects for our players then we do want people to come to our game region to OOC (do all the standing around stuff that people do, dressed in all their own glory, when watching a game being played by others). Socially, we only want to exclude people from using non-game assets while playing the game on the arena  portion of the region

Edited by Mollymews
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An OBJECT_RUNNING_SCRIPT_COUNT > 1  approach will require a player to detach many/most of their attachments, even those that are not used for cheating or those of little resource impact.

Not every game operator might want to be that stringent and/or want to run in-game themed character dress only.

Since the feature would be a parcel and region setting, it can be set up and used wherever necessary as to not affect those outside gaming areas.

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turning off all scripts not enabled by our Experience requires the same of our player. It renders their own scripted attachments unusable

example: I go to a new Linden Realms - all non-LR experience scripts are disabled. My ears and my tail would be disabled, as would my AO and my bento animation HUD

which a game operator can do now if they wanted too.  Have me wear their game HUD and exclude me from their game when I don't remove my scripted ears/tail/AO/HUD

on the general point. We can't build a system that says disable all non-Experience scripts except for some unknown non-Experience enabled scripts

Edited by Mollymews
some
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 "R - Floor: Come closer.  You must be no more than 5 meters from the crystal to touch it."

So much for crystal detectors - This has been standard in the LR for the last 2 years.  You can't stand in one spot and pick off crystals that are not next to you.

Teleports are ONLY allowed between 3 locations in the LR.  Try to TP elsewhere and you will still end up at one of the 3 designated allowed TP points. Two are recovery safe areas, and the other is the Village.  

A speed enhancer does not let you collect crystals any faster - in fact you lose control.  They might save you a few MINUTES in running the 4 quests.  It takes about 15 minutes to complete all four quests with NO enhancement HUDS.  You can only cash in the quests once a week for 50 $L.  So these speed cheaters spend 10 mins in the LR per week!  OMG the sky is falling, and they are to blame because I can't find a green crystal.  So much BS. Develop some game skills instead of blaming others for your lack of skill.

Remain stationary at any location other than the village for more that 9 mins and you are transported to the Portal Park, outside the Realms.

I wasted 30 mins watching the minimap green dots this morning, as nafys suggested.  I saw exactly TWO avatars using a speed/flying HUD.  Neither one of them collected any crystals or completed any quest.  They must not have found a green crystal to begin the quest, so they left.  What effect would they have on another player - ZERO!

Molly, I suggest you actually play the present LR game, so your understanding of the changes is up to date.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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