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Scylla Rhiadra

SL Vogue! How Do You Do Fashion Photography?

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Posted (edited)

Confession: I am a pretty lame fashionista, myself. I "know what I like," so to speak, but I don't think I have a very innovative or unique approach to styling.

I am, however, very interested in how we photograph SL fashion, and have been exploring some ideas on this subject. My own approach, which is really just an experiment, is to try to find a sort of compromise between the completely minimalist shot that features virtually nothing but the clothing, on an avatar who might as well be a dress judy, and the "busy" scenes that characterize a lot of fashion blogging, in which the clothing becomes all but lost in the action, colour, and shadow of the picture background.

What I've been trying are scenes that are self-consciously "artificial": they don't pretend to be pictures of people "doing things" in SL. I've used a plain white backdrop, but included some details that, I hope, add interest to the photography, "comment" in some way upon the clothing featured, and at least attempt to be a bit whimsical. The intent is to highlight the clothing, but to "contextualize" it in some way, and make the photograph more compelling than a simple snap in a catalogue.

It seems to me that this is somewhat analogous to how Vogue takes its pics. Here's an example that I've already posted elsewhere (I'll post some new ones eventually) that I think captures more or less what I want to do

Model-6-Blank.thumb.png.4fb8e81ce406564a048a383794a4ecb2.png

Credits:

The Bubblegum Tree - Blazer T-Shirt Live Life
Rebellious Rose - Boyfriend Jeans
::ROC:: - Erica Boot

I'd love to hear some thoughts on your approach to photographing SL fashion, as well as some critique of the approach I'm trying out!

And, better yet, some examples of what you do! Let's talk about fashion photography!

(I'd ask people not to use this thread for "Where can I get . . ." posts, as the fashion subforum already provides a place for this. And the focus here should, hopefully, be on the clothing, rather than upon "how my avatar looks": we have a place for those sorts of pics already also.)

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Added credits and a few bits and pieces
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To contrast with the above shot, here's a new one, taken yesterday.

I actually don't think this one works very well, in part because I've nearly lost the minimalism that helps the clothing standout. It's an ok pic (a bit meh), but it doesn't do what I hoped it would do (and I think I may retake it, stripping away some of the elaborate background).

Model-10-ver1-Blank.thumb.png.60ccd083c90a8b44db178b4e7b058de4.png

Credits:

Valentina E. -- Amelie Belted Jacket
MH Unique Designs -- Telia Jeans
Equal - Alex Boots
Blackburns -- Fashion Mesh Eye Glasses

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Well...................where do I start on this. I have a specific style, which my sisters follow closely but each varies slightly. My style is clubbing, and smart casual. I don't do anything else here. I only have one pair of flat sneakers which I never wear. I don't have any grunge wear, unlike RL.

When shooting solo, I usually pick a backdrop location or at backdrop city. I use a simple studio box occasionally by Strawberry Singh.

For group shots it has to be at a location where group poses can be rezzed.  Then the usual windlight and graphics. I don't post process, apart from crop and exposure/colour, becuse I'm not good enough or quick enough to work photo editing tools.

The image below is older, and is Salty, me, Skye and Ellie, taken at Charleston Heights beach, owned by Zennessa, and where we lived for quite a while. Rezzing was easy and there were few interruptions.  :)

 

SL04.png

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2 hours ago, BelindaN said:

Then the usual windlight and graphics.

One of the issues I have is with Windlight (and also in post-processing), because, unless you're using an "optimal" WL -- one designed to show off the avatar to the best effective -- you can end up changing the colours (and sometimes hiding the details) of the clothing.

On the other hand, a shot using an optimal studio light is often really kind of dull, and without shadows.

You've used a very clear WL above, though!

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   I occasionally do fashion shoots when I feel guilty about buying something because it looked pretty, but can't be bothered to make a full scenic shot with it. Usually I'll keep the background somewhat plain, and light it as I would any other scene, with full focus on the subject. Usually the shots feel a bit half-arsed though, because they usually are. Broke some rules of photography in these examples that I probably shouldn't have:

 

Heile, heile Segen

   Clipped the subject below the knees and didn't put in enough head space in the frame.

 

Contemplative

   Subject is looking away from the spacing, which disturbs the focus. Also, the knees again. I could probably get a better picture out of that by just re-cropping it.

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Recropped.thumb.png.84d026bb273899d1d4f4edc2b8f58b49.png

   Better.

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Posted (edited)

To me, this equates to the type of pictures I do when I am blogging.  For me, my priority is showing off the outfit to its best.  I tend to take my pictures as close up as I can without cutting out too much of the outfit, and because I hate full body (head to toe) shots.  If I have to do one, I try to find a sitting pose that will work for the outfit as I find that easier than trying to fit my full avi into a standing shot.  I heard once that you shouldn't cut fingers or toes out of pictures as that is a disturbing image, and also not around the knees, so I always try to keep that in mind when I am framing up a shot.

1. Accessories - choosing bags, jewelry and hair that doesn't cover it up and compliments the look I am going for.  

2. Pose -  One that suits the outfit, doesn't clip/hide the texture or features of the outfit and makes me want to buy it if I saw it on someone else's blog.

3. Background - Do I want one that will make the picture part of a scene, or just a simple backdrop that will make the look the focus?  This is usually the part that takes me the longest.

4. Windlight/Shadows - I tend to use these to add a little extra to the pictures, but sometimes things look better without them.  It all depends on what look I want for my picture

5.  Editing - I tend not to do much editing to my pictures because I spend time making sure they look as good as I can inworld, that often I don't need to fix anything.  But if I do, it's just little fixes like hair/body clipping, alpha conflicts etc.  Then I simply blur, add my current favourite filter and then I crop the picture to what I think looks best.

A couple of examples...

Image111.jpg

P.S. EYES!  I always make sure they are looking either directly into the camera to "connect" with the audience, or if they are looking away, it's because it suits the mood of the picture.

Edited by Jordan Whitt
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Thank you Jordan!

I get so frustrated when bloggers have arty (tempted to add rhyming word starting with f) pictures that do not even attempt to show off the clothes that I thought they were meant to be showcasing. 

Recent examples - model in deep full or partial shadow incl night shots where all detail of clothing is lost - poses that actually hide most of the clothing item -  shoes under water...

I have to stop - I am foaming at the mouth!

Emma :) 

 

 

 

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I don't consider my photos to be fashion photography per se, but I do shop a lot and enjoy getting dressed up and taking pics of my avatar. I also really enjoy exploring, so my photos are usually taken with an interesting-to-me place in the background. I credit my outfit and location on Flickr out of courtesy, but I'm no blogger.  Here is an example of my latest: an outfit I like taken at an interesting place, Frogmore. I try to find a complementary Windlight and angle.

If I could touch the sky...

 

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Posted (edited)

Great post @Jordan Whitt -- lots of good points! And @Eva Knoller, lovely picture, and it really does highlight the clothing!

So, what if we start from first principles here, and ask some questions? I don't really have any answers to these -- I just don't know enough. But it seems to me they are useful questions.

  • What is the function of a fashion photo? Is it to sell clothing, i.e., a sort of elaborate advertisement? Or is it to show style? It seems to me a lot of fashion photography is about "style" rather than a particular garment -- it's about identifying a "look," in a broader sense.
     
  • Is fashion photography a "genre" of photography in its own right, like portraits, or landscapes, or still lifes? In other words, does it have its own rules as an art form? Or is it merely functional -- i.e., selling clothes, or a style?
     
  • What's the function of a backdrop? In theory, the best way to highlight a garment is a completely blank backdrop that focuses all attention on the clothing. So, why do we use backdrops at all? (Which is a question aside from how best to ensure that a backdrop isn't detracting from the garments by being too busy, too colourful, noisy, etc.)
     
  • What is the function of a pose? Again, in theory, something extremely simple might theoretically be best, but poses can communicate an attitude that you want associated with a particular look or garment. It can, I think, also accentuate things about the garment, like how it flows, it's "line" and so on?
     
  • And again, with Windlight -- in theory, the "best" Windlight is a low shadow, medium contrast, neutral lighting that shows off the colours well. But Windlight, again, can convey things about a garment -- the kind of mood or attitude, or context, that it's associated with.
     
  • Does SL fashion photography differ from the RL thing? Above and beyond the technical considerations (making sure that you don't create alpha glitches, or that clothes aren't "cutting" each other), that seems to me to tied into the question of how SL fashion, as a whole, differs from RL fashion.

I think a good, interesting fashion photograph actually helps "sell" a garment, and highlights style. It's finding a balance that is important.

Here's a recent shot I did. I have no idea if it's any "good" as a fashion pic, but I wanted to both highlight the garments, and communicate something about the attitude they conveyed. And in part I wanted to do that by telling, in miniature, a "story" about it.

Model-9-Blank.thumb.png.71813151327be503f3fe353b51508aff.png

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2020 at 4:43 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

One of the issues I have is with Windlight (and also in post-processing), because, unless you're using an "optimal" WL -- one designed to show off the avatar to the best effective -- you can end up changing the colours (and sometimes hiding the details) of the clothing.

On the other hand, a shot using an optimal studio light is often really kind of dull, and without shadows.

You've used a very clear WL above, though!

Not that I know anything about fashion photography in-world or IRL, but a couple thoughts (sorry if you already thought of this stuff):

Though images with low contrast between the model/clothes and the background can convey a mood, and perhaps interest people in the clothes because of the associations (cool, edgy, whatever), I would think that to really showcase the clothes, you would want good contrast with the background. I guess brand managers (or just photographers in SL who want to make these pics because they like doing it!) have to balance all that. Perhaps even if viewers cannot see a lot of details in the clothes, if they like the image associated with the clothes in the photo, they will go look at the clothes in-person, or track down images that show better details and more accurate colors. IRL product photographers, and I thought fashion photographers, too, spend a lot of effort in color management so the colors *are* accurate (I used to do that when shooting IRL, too; shoot a ColorChecker, use a calibrated monitor, print at a place with good color management). In the end I would guess like with everything else there is no one perfect, or even 'best practice' approach for the whole genre, and you have to figure out what the order of importance for the factors you can control and work with the limitations of the medium.

Wrt to the lighting of one thing affecting the colors and whatever of another, IRL unless you are shooting in a studio, you often have to deal with mixed lighting/color casts, especially if you use extra lighting. This can be handled in a lot of ways, again depending on what you are trying to do. However, if you want all the lighting the same, and are not trying to light the whole outdoors, you can just use much stronger light of the quality you want on the subject. I don't have any experience with it, but I would guess IRL photographers want more accurate light on the subject, and perhaps warmer light in the background, though again, a lot of people take photos early or late in the day to get the warm, soft Golden Hour lighting. In that case, clothes may look appealing, but are not going to look like that for the people who buy them unless they only wear them outside early or late in the day, lol. Personally, for SL photography, I probably would (and have) use compositing. One thing to remember, of which I am sure you are aware, is that color perception is relative, not absolute. So even if you get perfect, accurate lighting on the clothes in a technical sense, the background colors/color casts are going to affect how people see the clothes in the final photo.

Better, more experienced photographers may certainly take issue with things I said above, but just how I see it, and something to at least think about a little, maybe.

Hope this helps in some way! :)

ETA: Btw, in the studio, people use gels to get lighting that is less 'sterile' or 'clinical.' You can even mix that with clean white light ( a bad term, but I think you know what I mean). Probably mostly used as an accent light of some sort, but you certainly could use it for main light effects, if you wanted.

Edited by CaerolleClaudel
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13 hours ago, Emma Krokus said:

I get so frustrated when bloggers have arty (tempted to add rhyming word starting with f) pictures that do not even attempt to show off the clothes that I thought they were meant to be showcasing. 

I'm not very good at that particular style of photography.  I think it's cos I am not really artistically minded.  I like simple pictures that showcase the items I am blogging that will (hopefully) make someone go "Omg I want that *item* now!"

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On 7/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What is the function of a fashion photo? Is it to sell clothing, i.e., a sort of elaborate advertisement? Or is it to show style? It seems to me a lot of fashion photography is about "style" rather than a particular garment -- it's about identifying a "look," in a broader sense.

I think it can be both.  Some pictures are specifically to promote and sell an item.  Well that's what mine are for anyway, and a lot of other bloggers as well.  Others are more in the stylist camp.  They create looks using the item, accessories and whole mood of a picture.  That's more the artsy pictures that tend to maybe not show the items as clearly.

On 7/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Is fashion photography a "genre" of photography in its own right, like portraits, or landscapes, or still lifes? In other words, does it have its own rules as an art form? Or is it merely functional -- i.e., selling clothes, or a style?

I do believe it is its own art form.  Just look at the creativity of the stylist bloggers and photographers.  You cannot tell me that is not worthy of its own genre!  But I don't believe it has its own rules.  There is not one way to do something and everyone has different perspectives and ways of looking at something.  No two bloggers are the same.  Give them the same dress and you can get a hundred different pictures showcasing it.

On 7/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What's the function of a backdrop? In theory, the best way to highlight a garment is a completely blank backdrop that focuses all attention on the clothing. So, why do we use backdrops at all? (Which is a question aside from how best to ensure that a backdrop isn't detracting from the garments by being too busy, too colourful, noisy, etc.)

To me backdrops add atmosphere to a picture, or show a way in which the items being shown can be used or enjoyed.  Example -  a beach backdrop for a bikini, formal scene for a ballgown etc.  I think shop vendors look better on blank or plain backdrops as you can interpret the item your way then.  Backdrops should always add and never overtake or distract.

On 7/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What is the function of a pose? Again, in theory, something extremely simple might theoretically be best, but poses can communicate an attitude that you want associated with a particular look or garment. It can, I think, also accentuate things about the garment, like how it flows, it's "line" and so on?

Much like backdrops, poses should add and never distract from an item.  They add an attitude and life to a picture, show features of it and can make a picture fun.  Yes sometimes plain is best for showing off an item, but you need some spark and movement in pictures too.

On 7/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And again, with Windlight -- in theory, the "best" Windlight is a low shadow, medium contrast, neutral lighting that shows off the colours well. But Windlight, again, can convey things about a garment -- the kind of mood or attitude, or context, that it's associated with.

Windlight adds another layer of fun to a picture.  It can almost be a filter if you want to add an arty effect, or just add some shadows for a touch of realism.  And you do have to watch out for changing the colours of things with some of the windlights.  It is all about the mood you want for your picture.

On 7/4/2020 at 3:10 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Does SL fashion photography differ from the RL thing? Above and beyond the technical considerations (making sure that you don't create alpha glitches, or that clothes aren't "cutting" each other), that seems to me to tied into the question of how SL fashion, as a whole, differs from RL fashion.

I don't believe RL and SL fashion photography differ too much.  Both want to sell an item and show it off at its best, both depend on finding that right look, right angle and right editing to make the picture something special.  Yes there are more technical issues in SL photography, but they can be overcome with the right poses, accessories and editing.  But I think it is easier to be more creative with SL photography than RL.  After all, we can do anything, look anyway we like, and have access to whatever our minds can come up with inworld.  

All are just my opinions.  I am far from an expert, just an enthusiastic amateur.

 

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Posted (edited)

This thread caught my eye.

In RL, personally I'm no fashionista by a long shot. However, I love fashion. I used to subscribe to tons of magazines (now I just read them when getting my hair done), Instagram has become my free choice with unlimited inspiration. I knew all the famous photographers and models by name (not so much anymore). An ex of mine was a professional photographer and I used to assist on some of his jobs. Tedious but interesting.

Fashion photography encompasses many things that go into a good photo but the two most important ones, for me, are the photographer themselves and the vision they have for the product and the ability of the model to sell the product via expression/pose. Combined these 2 people will make you want what you see. The product itself is secondary - it could be a cruddy pair of ripped jeans or a mink jacket. If the photo stinks and if the model is dead, nothing is going to save the end result.

Good photos can sell anything - and good models do the same. The ad wants you to want. It is not easy to achieve this. There is a ton of mediocre fashion photos out there. it takes special talent from everyone involved to make an image that has impact. 

Of course then you're dealing with the usual photo issues; lighting, mood, pose, arranging the shot etc. 

For me personally, I like edginess to a fashion photo in some manner. Something unexpected.  Disturbing.  LOVE Helmut Newton for example. I still study big name photographers and many high fashion designers. 

Make me look. Make me want. Make me jealous. Make me need.

Everything else to me comes off like selfies. Doesn't matter if you're wearing the highest fashion outfit in a fantastic landscape if the image sucks. 

Most of the time I'm not trying very hard because I'm lazy like that but sometimes, yea sometimes I think I hit the mark. I gravitate to simple shots, a lot of high key or low key to focus on what I want seen first.

Anyway I'm another person just blathering on the topic. Here's a few that I actually spent a lot of time working on. I like it as the King Crimson song goes.

CattyThere Ain't No Cure for the Summertime BluesPlaying with Black Dragon

 

Edited by Elora Lunasea
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Thanks Elora, some really interesting insights here! I particularly liked this bit:

2 hours ago, Elora Lunasea said:

For me personally, I like edginess to a fashion photo in some manner. Something unexpected.  Disturbing.  LOVE Helmut Newton for example. I still study big name photographers and many high fashion designers. 

Make me look. Make me want. Make me jealous. Make me need.

And, I'd agree about this:

2 hours ago, Elora Lunasea said:

Everything else to me comes off like selfies.

I sometimes don't realize that what I'm look at is a fashion pic at all, because it lacks focus.

I have a question for you: do you see room for fashion photography that isn't about "selling" a product? If so, then what does it do?

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On 7/5/2020 at 5:52 AM, Jordan Whitt said:

I do believe it is its own art form.  Just look at the creativity of the stylist bloggers and photographers.  You cannot tell me that is not worthy of its own genre!  But I don't believe it has its own rules.  There is not one way to do something and everyone has different perspectives and ways of looking at something.  No two bloggers are the same.  Give them the same dress and you can get a hundred different pictures showcasing it.

I agree about this, Jordan, but when I said "its own rules," I didn't mean to imply that there was always only one way to do it. What I guess I meant is that it has a different function, or functions, than, say landscape photography or portrait photography -- that it's trying to do different things, although what those "things" are can be enormously varied. But someone who is doing, for instance, a portrait, is probably trying to capture a personality, whereas that is more likely to be secondary in fashion photography. If you are trying to give a sense of someone's personality, it's with the intention of saying something about what they are wearing, rather than as an end in and of itself.

 

On 7/5/2020 at 5:52 AM, Jordan Whitt said:

I think it can be both.  Some pictures are specifically to promote and sell an item.  Well that's what mine are for anyway, and a lot of other bloggers as well.  Others are more in the stylist camp.  They create looks using the item, accessories and whole mood of a picture.  That's more the artsy pictures that tend to maybe not show the items as clearly.

Maybe a sort of analogy here is with haute couture. A great deal of the most prestigious fashion that appears on runways could never be worn by an ordinary person. It's not merely that it would be too expensive: it's simply not functional as clothing. It is, I suppose, fashion as wearable art. It's not what I am particularly interested in, but I guess it has its own validity?

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6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Thanks Elora, some really interesting insights here! I particularly liked this bit:

And, I'd agree about this:

I sometimes don't realize that what I'm look at is a fashion pic at all, because it lacks focus.

I have a question for you: do you see room for fashion photography that isn't about "selling" a product? If so, then what does it do?

I think in essence fashion photography is always selling something whether intentional or not. But it IS also art in many instances. I've certainly seen advertisements for banal products that do rise to that level. There is one fashion designer I follow, Zac Posen, that makes the most incredible gowns, dresses I'd never get a chance to wear (let alone fit into lol) and he uses video to highlight the dresses but oh my, the models moving in those structurally perfect creations are so highly artistic and eye catching. The lighting, the music used makes them soar way past being an ad for the dress. 

However, in SL that isn't necessarily the case. The photos that I take, for instance, are never created to sell a product (though I mention them since I know others enjoy knowing what went into the image). Most are done for my own personal aesthetic of form/function (that's my design background speaking lol). Or maybe they just amuse me. 

Sometimes I'm solely interested in showcasing a color (my orange dress/sunset above - I LOVE orange). While about the dress it was also about getting a wash of hue. Or I may want to just deal with symmetry - the juxtaposition of shapes and/or color against each other. In the first photo I liked putting a soft fur jacket over the leather  (let alone the kitten). Or I may suddenly realize, if a shot is looking drab overall, that a pop of color is necessary to focus the eye or to create a bridge between objects.  In the 2nd photo above, adding in the orange drink and pink kitten in a bucket pulled out the bathing suit colors even more (well IMHO of course) which was needed since the background was a little too bright by the Windlight I was using, but I liked the effect and didn't want to change it. 

Then there's mood too. I prefer strong looking female images to typically pretty, soft ones. That in SL requires really good poses and I'm always scouting out for the ones that showcase this - or many times I use the male version instead.  I do this for head shots also, which are my favorite to photograph. Taking a simple head on image in SL can be more difficult than one would think. Getting the avatar to look directly into the camera, not very easy at times. I aim to have that connection between the person viewing the photo and the image - it lures one in.

I do a lot of analyzing about mood and tone in my SL photos as you can see. Sometimes, not thinking about it though, makes a great shot too. Some of my favorites are just grabbed on the fly and just were lucky to capture that "something something"

 

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I'm not the best of fashion photography on SL, but when I capture that right photo for a certain outfit, I post it. Here's some of my personal examples!

Subtle Tears

 

InfluencedKitsune // B&W

 

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I am really not sure if I do take fashion photography. I just take pictures of my avatar, or my friends, and clothing is a part of the overall composition and often plays a very important role. It all needs to click together - the outfit, the overall look of the avatar, the place, the pose - when I am trying to draw a basic idea in my head, and that's very hard to explain. I usually have a simple picture in my mind and try to recreate it, adjusting and changing details.

Here's my newest picture. It's a beginning of a new photo session project, fashion magazine style.

 

20200729fs_002cc.png

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I think that fashion photography -- for one thing -- should show off the clothes to there best advantage. That 'is" sort of part of the definition in real life. Beyond that I think the most engaging shots are not only well done technically but entice the viewer to write their own story from the breif look into the the lives of the participants.  

 

I don't DO that all that often but I am trying to move in that direction LOL.

 

330731729_morningshowers.thumb.jpg.fe31c7da3d661f9f3c3857e716ba115e.jpg

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Saskia Rieko said:

It all needs to click together - the outfit, the overall look of the avatar, the place, the pose - when I am trying to draw a basic idea in my head, and that's very hard to explain. I usually have a simple picture in my mind and try to recreate it, adjusting and changing details.

Absolutely. That's the point, maybe, where "fashion photography" becomes merely not just about the clothes, but about the whole cultural milieu associated with them -- the way that they fit into, and add additional meaning to, their contexts.

The pic above, which is (as usual, Saskia), gorgeous, doesn't highlight the dress in the way that a simpler advert does, but it makes me want to own it because of the ideas and emotions that it evokes as part of this overall scene. Part of how you've "sold" the dress is by packaging it up with a whole bunch of other appealing elements.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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1 minute ago, Chic Aeon said:

but entice the viewer to write their own story from the breif look into the the lives of the participants.

Really nice point! Fashion photography can tell stories, and stories that we want to write ourselves into!

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So, here's an example of sort of telling a miniature story, but more particularly alluding to a particular cultural moment and, in a way, ideology. The garments are an embodiment of a recognizable "style" (so-called "kinderwhore") that is in turn associated with an identifiable demographic, and a broader social context derived from particular genres of music and writing. But that style also alludes to other recognizable, gendered styles: the kinderwhore look was a conscious political statement that took on and subverted conventional notions of "femininity," particularly as they were represented in popular fashion.

The picture is trying to capture all of that. It's not just "selling" particular garments: it's alluding to (and arguably advocating for) a much broader cultural, political, and aesthetic movement.

Kinderwhore-2-Blank.thumb.jpg.b7009b6fe69b0c04550406b108182680.jpg

JustBECAUSE -- Leena Dress (10Cream)
Pseudo -- Trucker Jacket (Black)
Blueberry -- FLF Stockings Pack
::ROC:: -- Erica Boot
La Licorne -- "all we have is now" (Tattoo, Black)
Carol G -- Petals Arms (Tattoo, Black)

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I'm slowly immersing myself in photography here. It will take me a long time before I'm truly proficient at it though. I have RL photog experience, but it's very different in SL. I personally love fashion shots as an expression of what the image is trying to portray,...because I love fashion...and photography!!! It doesn't matter to me whether it's to sell clothes or not.

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