Stop 'N Shop Does Not Have to Be So Laggy

[Prokofy Neva]

The Shop and Hop, which I have come to think of as the Drop and Hop, as you CRAAAAAWL like a sleepy fly in molasses throughout the whole thing, could be far less laggy than it is, and it is not due to 40 avatars on a sim. The build itself and the lack of rules enforcement is at least in part to blame.

Since I know there's a certain cadre on the forums that disputes anything I say, and an overlapping cadre that rejects anything critical of the beloved Moles, I'll address this one over their heads in the hopes that Moles, who I find far more receptive than their fan base, might hear this.

Events in SL are laggy. This is a given. We all know the recipes to make them less laggy, starting with ourselves -- remove all the attachments and bling that make rendering hard. And turn off the view of avatars, and for that matter, other things (surface patch) to reduce lag for yourself.

But we also know that all kinds of things can be done to optimize a heavy-use sim. It's done all the time. Huge events recently like Fantasy Faire, Relay for Life, Home & Garden Expo Design Contest, and the SL 17th Birthday all had strict rules for lightening sim loads.

At Fantasy Faire, which I was fortunate to take part in for the first time this year as a small merchant, has very strict rules that are vigorously enforced. A matron comes around and looks over EVERY SINGLE THING on your lot. Does it violate copyright? Has a script been removed? Is it on topic? But wait, are you SURE you took the script out of that lamp/candle/glowy thing. Then they come around AGAIN. They start with a set of rules (no 1024 textures, take out scripts, take off light, etc.) and they enforce them -- and it works.

And please don't tell me FF has less of a load than Shop 'N Hop. FF has MORE. It has far, far more elaborate builds. More avatars. And way more vendors, as it has lots of shop vendors plus the RFL vendors. It has more shops per sim in some cases, and events on those same sims.

But if you feel as if you must argue about FF or any other big event as being "less" than Shop 'n Hop, then look at SL17B. Yes, SL17B do not always have as many people per sim, but even event-packed sims are not as laggy as Shop 'n Hop.

Because at SL17B -- same set of rules as FF or any other big event, Linden-sponsored or not. Take out scripts -- and then take out MORE scripts. Put everything on "phantom" so there are no collisions. Lindens or Moles come and check and tell you to reduce, and reduce some more. And check AGAIN. You keep whittling and battling til you get down below their norm, which is I believe 0.06 script time per parcel (and below .01 per item). Much of the work of your build comes in doing this paring of prims and scripts and optimizing things.

I don't think this is being done with anywhere near the scrupulousness of other Linden-sponsored or Linden-facilitated events at Shop 'n Hop.

I see merchants that have not removed obvious scripts from lamps and other lit things -- and they don't need them to be there in a sample as they have vendors. I don't know how you tell whether a texture is at 512 or 1024 (I'd love to know if there is  a test) -- but persistent grey squares may indicate that.

More to the point, which is easier to police in a way, is the Moles' build. Now, I realize this is a very awesome and beloved build. It looks like Midtown Plaza, the first mall in Rochester, NY, which we used to go to as teenagers in the 1970s and buy things called "records" at "record stores" (which later my daughter called "Those big CDs you have in the closet"). Midtown Plaza -- with the same swirly arches and rounded effects and hanging plants and pools and more plants was torn down a few years ago because not only was it expensive to heat in the winter and cool in the summer, stores were dying due to the Internet.

So here we all are on the Internet, and the thought is, "Let's re-create virtually that fabulous 1970s mall experience that Prok and other teens buying record and posters and beads in head shops look upon so nostalgically".

Except this build is not only a lag monster, in my view, it's an avatar trap. Most of the time when I just click on a sim, I land under the build or trapped by the benches and pools, unable to break away easily. There is no need for all those pools and benches. No one sits at them. Ever. They fight their way FROM them. ONE per sim would be plenty.

The hanging plants have lights in them, for example:  0.01331 ms, 1792 KB, (28/28) : Gleaming Hedge E2

I flew around with my Xoph script sensor and that was just one of the high script time lit things I saw that could have been removed. In fact the entire overhanging plant-filled mall could go. 

A lot of the big events merchants have  finally changed their big, avatar-trapping, elaborate builds. Remember We ❤️ RP's old medieval town builds? You had to DRAAAAG yourself through these wending dirt roads past dark medieval pubs and fences and stalls and castles that made the whole experience dark and depressing. You could never find the thing you were looking for. You would grind away at it, trying to cam, and give up. Finally the owners realized this cost them sales, they ditched all that stuff, and made a spacious, clean round building with simple stalls which is 10 times easier to navigate, find what you want, buy, browse, and get out without torture. Same with Sanarae, even Shiny Shabby -- all of them have ditched their elaborate builds in favour of builds that reduce lag and therefore increase sales. After all, if you want to go look at a build, you can go to a Destination or some romantic spot, you don't need to go to a laggy event you can't even see. Arcade put the entire thing on a pier. I think it would make sense to put Shop 'n Hop on a pier with no ceiling, no plants, no impediments, and take out all the scripts possible.

I realize that Soviet-style gigantism, or for that matter, 1950s American recreational gigantism, styles that Moles like other virtual architects fall back on because they are lacking in other models for the masses they wish to bring, dies very hard out of the repetoire. But it must. Merchants work hard to set up their stores, they give away gifts, they set things at half price, they take a loss, and while they can do what they should to reduce lag -- and rules should be enforced with them as much as they are for SL17B or other events -- the build itself has to change.

Yes, I realize you can wait until the first very laggy days die down. Duh. It does last a month. But I'm talking about going there *yesterday* or *today* when it has 13 or 18 avatars per sim, and it is still grindingly slow. It doesn't have to be this way.

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Prokofy Neva

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

11 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

A matron comes around and looks over EVERY SINGLE THING

I just can't stop thinking of Kenneth Williams "Ooh matron!" after reading that line.

[Pixie Kobichenko]

29 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Shop and Hop, which I have come to think of as the Drop and Hop, as you CRAAAAAWL like a sleepy fly in molasses throughout the whole thing, could be far less laggy than it is, and it is not due to 40 avatars on a sim. The build itself and the lack of rules enforcement is at least in part to blame.

Since I know there's a certain cadre on the forums that disputes anything I say, and an overlapping cadre that rejects anything critical of the beloved Moles, I'll address this one over their heads in the hopes that Moles, who I find far more receptive than their fan base, might hear this.

Events in SL are laggy. This is a given. We all know the recipes to make them less laggy, starting with ourselves -- remove all the attachments and bling that make rendering hard. And turn off the view of avatars, and for that matter, other things (surface patch) to reduce lag for yourself.

But we also know that all kinds of things can be done to optimize a heavy-use sim. It's done all the time. Huge events recently like Fantasy Faire, Relay for Life, Home & Garden Expo Design Contest, and the SL 17th Birthday all had strict rules for lightening sim loads.

At Fantasy Faire, which I was fortunate to take part in for the first time this year as a small merchant, has very strict rules that are vigorously enforced. A matron comes around and looks over EVERY SINGLE THING on your lot. Does it violate copyright? Has a script been removed? Is it on topic? But wait, are you SURE you took the script out of that lamp/candle/glowy thing. Then they come around AGAIN. They start with a set of rules (no 1024 textures, take out scripts, take off light, etc.) and they enforce them -- and it works.

And please don't tell me FF has less of a load than Shop 'N Hop. FF has MORE. It has far, far more elaborate builds. More avatars. And way more vendors, as it has lots of shop vendors plus the RFL vendors. It has more shops per sim in some cases, and events on those same sims.

But if you feel as if you must argue about FF or any other big event as being "less" than Shop 'n Hop, then look at SL17B. Yes, SL17B do not always have as many people per sim, but even event-packed sims are not as laggy as Shop 'n Hop.

Because at SL17B -- same set of rules as FF or any other big event, Linden-sponsored or not. Take out scripts -- and then take out MORE scripts. Put everything on "phantom" so there are no collisions. Lindens or Moles come and check and tell you to reduce, and reduce some more. And check AGAIN. You keep whittling and battling til you get down below their norm, which is I believe 0.06 script time per parcel (and below .01 per item). Much of the work of your build comes in doing this paring of prims and scripts and optimizing things.

I don't think this is being done with anywhere near the scrupulousness of other Linden-sponsored or Linden-facilitated events at Shop 'n Hop.

I see merchants that have not removed obvious scripts from lamps and other lit things -- and they don't need them to be there in a sample as they have vendors. I don't know how you tell whether a texture is at 512 or 1024 (I'd love to know if there is  a test) -- but persistent grey squares may indicate that.

More to the point, which is easier to police in a way, is the Moles' build. Now, I realize this is a very awesome and beloved build. It looks like Midtown Plaza, the first mall in Rochester, NY, which we used to go to as teenagers in the 1970s and buy things called "records" at "record stores" (which later my daughter called "Those big CDs you have in the closet"). Midtown Plaza -- with the same swirly arches and rounded effects and hanging plants and pools and more plants was torn down a few years ago because not only was it expensive to heat in the winter and cool in the summer, stores were dying due to the Internet.

So here we all are on the Internet, and the thought is, "Let's re-create virtually that fabulous 1970s mall experience that Prok and other teens buying record and posters and beads in head shops look upon so nostalgically".

Except this build is not only a lag monster, in my view, it's an avatar trap. Most of the time when I just click on a sim, I land under the build or trapped by the benches and pools, unable to break away easily. There is no need for all those pools and benches. No one sits at them. Ever. They fight their way FROM them. ONE per sim would be plenty.

The hanging plants have lights in them, for example:  0.01331 ms, 1792 KB, (28/28) : Gleaming Hedge E2

I flew around with my Xoph script sensor and that was just one of the high script time lit things I saw that could have been removed. In fact the entire overhanging plant-filled mall could go. 

A lot of the big events merchants have  finally changed their big, avatar-trapping, elaborate builds. Remember We ❤️ RP's old medieval town builds? You had to DRAAAAG yourself through these wending dirt roads past dark medieval pubs and fences and stalls and castles that made the whole experience dark and depressing. You could never find the thing you were looking for. You would grind away at it, trying to cam, and give up. Finally the owners realized this cost them sales, they ditched all that stuff, and made a spacious, clean round building with simple stalls which is 10 times easier to navigate, find what you want, buy, browse, and get out without torture. Same with Sanarae, even Shiny Shabby -- all of them have ditched their elaborate builds in favour of builds that reduce lag and therefore increase sales. After all, if you want to go look at a build, you can go to a Destination or some romantic spot, you don't need to go to a laggy event you can't even see. Arcade put the entire thing on a pier. I think it would make sense to put Shop 'n Hop on a pier with no ceiling, no plants, no impediments, and take out all the scripts possible.

I realize that Soviet-style gigantism, or for that matter, 1950s American recreational gigantism, styles that Moles like other virtual architects fall back on because they are lacking in other models for the masses they wish to bring, dies very hard out of the repetoire. But it must. Merchants work hard to set up their stores, they give away gifts, they set things at half price, they take a loss, and while they can do what they should to reduce lag -- and rules should be enforced with them as much as they are for SL17B or other events -- the build itself has to change.

Yes, I realize you can wait until the first very laggy days die down. Duh. It does last a month. But I'm talking about going there *yesterday* or *today* when it has 13 or 18 avatars per sim, and it is still grindingly slow. It doesn't have to be this way.

 

Show friends only, go only in an alpha, shut off sky & water, only use basic shaders, lowest draw distance, no particles etc etc, & still lurchy as I cammed around from an overflow area.  Took forever to find the shops I wanted.  A map explaining where particular stalls are located would maybe help.  Would at least help some find what they want and leave.  At least me.. 

[Prokofy Neva]

25 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

Show friends only, go only in an alpha, shut off sky & water, only use basic shaders, lowest draw distance, no particles etc etc, & still lurchy as I cammed around from an overflow area.  Took forever to find the shops I wanted.  A map explaining where particular stalls are located would maybe help.  Would at least help some find what they want and leave.  At least me.. 

I did all that. You don't even have to show friends. I already have low draw distance, particle etc. And it's still laggy. Which is what I think you are confirming. 

There is a list of all the stores with direct TPs, that helps but that still lands you inside builds that trap you much of the time:

Also, once this blog entry disappears after the day it is posted, like all Linden blogs, it is HELLA HARD to find. You have to look and look through all the stuff they have. You see posts from 2019. But you can't find last week's easily.

Trying again with a better link - see what I mean?

 

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Prokofy Neva

[Pussycat Catnap]

complex avatars. complex builds, too many scripts on vendors, too many scripts on avatars...

All which yes, can be dealt with.

First they could turn off scripts for visitors.
Then they could limit max complexity to something silly-low. In the "no mesh for you" realm of under 15,000.

But I suspect the real problem is the builds.

Because Prok notes going when there are not that many people, and show friends only on, and yet it doesn't help.

(Show friends only rarely helps anyway... it doesn't do anything for script issues for example).

 

For the builds they could dictate rules about max texture size, max land impact for items, some rules over LOD to block the people that use LOD tricks to get around land-impact limits, require everything rezzed out to have a 'physics type' of convex hull OR prim. No setting to 'none' (which is a trick to lower land impact).

They could also either - disallow the use of vendors, or require everyone use the same brand of vendor that is scripted to have one script running across the whole sim and some networking tricks to get it to work for everyone individually...

Or... I dunno...

It seems to me like we're hitting a point where we need some scripters to come in an design 'event wide script manager' systems...

 

Before I got my new computer last year (running a 2080rtx GPU on a high end CPU and Ram) I often found that it was bad mesh that got me most. LOD tricks used on gatchas - there are a number of popular gatchas that would instant crash any viewer I used if I got them in camera view on my old MacBook.
- I suspect those same items would cause major performance issues on other more current machines as well, and most people are NOT using a 2080rtx GPU so would suffer from those kinds of things...

Better enforcement of policies around what the merchants can rez out would likely solve a lot.

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Wulfie Reanimator]

14 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

require everything rezzed out to have a 'physics type' of convex hull OR prim. No setting to 'none' (which is a trick to lower land impact).

Setting physics shape to none isn't a "trick." Having no physics shape means the sim doesn't have to consider the object's components for physics calculations. (Besides the root, which must have a physics shape.) It's an objective benefit and doesn't lower LI unless the object had higher physics weight than download (render) weight. So, if it worked for that object, it was a fixable problem.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I don't know how you tell whether a texture is at 512 or 1024 (I'd love to know if there is  a test)

You can right-click an object and "inspect" it. The inspect window will show you the Texture Memory being used by that object's components, which you can use to estimate what size the textures might be. With a little experience it becomes very easy to tell.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Has a script been removed? Is it on topic? But wait, are you SURE you took the script out of that lamp/candle/glowy thing. Then they come around AGAIN. They start with a set of rules (no 1024 textures, take out scripts, take off light, etc.) and they enforce them -- and it works.

Asking "are you sure you removed the scripts," if that really happens, makes me think that the 'matron' is checking the contents of every object by hand, which I wouldn't recommend because it's slow and error-prone. You can right-click on an object and get "Script Info" to instantly get an exact count of all scripts in every component of the object, how much CPU time they're averaging, and how many of them are turned on/off. (I'm pretty sure it's not LL Viewer functionality, but anyway.)

Removing lights also seems extreme, they can be turned off in the viewer's settings and have no effect on sim performance.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Chic Aeon]

I can verify that FOR ME right before opening the framerates were very good -- like 40ish this with all my normal defaults. 

 

I am currently standing in front of my area and have a framerate of 15. If I derender all the avatars near me (which I do in every event). My framerate goes to 27. This with only 19 people in the sim. I would suspect that with more people ALSO derendered the frame rate difference would be more broad. 

 

Just now some folks walked up to me and my framerate plummeted.  

 

I do agree that there should be a landing point set for the center of the sims and that is not always the case.

 

Turning off scripts in furniture that you are selling makes NO sense to me as the point of the examples is for people to TEST and they cannot test if the scripts aren't working.   Personally I have never used vendors and I script very lightly (poses and now and then a texture change script or on off lighting).   I personally have always had more issues with Fantasy Faire than Hop and Shop although this year the main builds  at FF seemed to be better --- especially some from the long time OMG heavy mesh making folks :D.   

 

That's my short input.  

[Pussycat Catnap]

2 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Turning off scripts in furniture that you are selling makes NO sense to me as the point of the examples is for people to TEST and they cannot test if the scripts aren't working.   Personally I have never used vendors and I script very lightly (poses and now and then a texture change script or on off lighting).   I personally have always had more issues with Fantasy Faire than Hop and Shop although this year the main builds  at FF seemed to be better --- especially some from the long time OMG heavy mesh making folks :D.  

I'm suggesting turning off visitor scripts, not the scripts of the things in the builds.

 

There are a LOT of people that run around with all config HUDs on, things like the Maitreya or Belleza or Catwa HUD or whatever... <--- that's some massive issues right there.

Likewise some people show up to these venues like it's the Paris fashion show runway... 90-million complexity full of stuff...

Years ago some events would do things like cap your scripts to some silly low number, and I've seen a number of place with systems that will teleport-out someone above a certain 'arc' score (the script engine still cannot detect complexity... arc sucks as a metric, but it's all we have).

Simply turning scripts off for anything not 'land owner and group' would suffice for the script issue. The complexity issue would need a security orb of some kind and of course since ARC is, not that good, not be ideal but be better than no solution.

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

1 minute ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I'm suggesting turning off visitor scripts, not the scripts of the things in the builds.

 

There are a LOT of people that run around with all config HUDs on, things like the Maitreya or Belleza or Catwa HUD or whatever... <--- that's some massive issues right there.

Likewise some people show up to these venues like it's the Paris fashion show runway... 90-million complexity full of stuff...

Years ago some events would do things like cap your scripts to some silly low number, and I've seen a number of place with systems that will teleport-out someone above a certain 'arc' score (the script engine still cannot detect complexity... arc sucks as a metric, but it's all we have).

Simply turning scripts off for anything not 'land owner and group' would suffice for the script issue. The complexity issue would need a security orb of some kind and of course since ARC is, not that good, not be ideal but be better than no solution.

 

 

Yes, understood that about scripts being avatars and wasn't referring to YOUR comment.  However, that being said, turning off scripts also negates AOs (at least mine) and so we end up running around like we are just out of the pod and THAT is not a fun shopping experience. So having a script counter for avatars that boots you if you are only a prescribed limit would be much better.  However, I am not in favor of that anyway.  

 

Honestly the event lasts a LONG time. Currently most of the sims are less than half full. Towards the end they will likely be only a few people in each sim. So if those that are having issues with lag JUST BE PATIENT and not try to come when it is super busy, there would be much less of a problem.  

 

And I am now just reading your ARC or "complexity" comment.   There is one main store event once a month that ONLY let's folks get the gifts if there complexity is below 25.  That seems to work fairly well. I did say "fairly".  Again, I am not FOR that, jut mentioning. 

 

My main comment is in bold and italics LOL.   There IS of course getting a better computer ^^.  Giving up Starbucks for a few months could solve a lot of problems.    

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

However, that being said, turning off scripts also negates AOs (at least mine) and so we end up running around like we are just out of the pod and THAT is not a fun shopping experience.

Yeah... it shouldn't. If the AOs are made with LSL code that came out in 2013... which almost none of them are...

I really need to put my AO out... I keep waiting on 'just one more thing...'

But AOs shouldn't break in no-script areas unless made wrong.

(in 2013 they put out a function that lets you see what animation is used for each movement state. It's a set and done thing - so an AO made with it doesn't run animations, it just sets them, and then can either be taken off or kept on to change them. For example mine changes them ever 'X' seconds - and if I go into a no-script area that last ones set just keep working because they're now known by SL until changed or relog - I know of only 2 other AOs that also do this, an update to ZHAO nobody uses for reasons I cannot figure out, and one made by Niran of Dragon Viewer).

 

 

I usually go to events near the end as well...

But we shouldn't have to, just so much stuff is badly made these days...

(I am well aware of the irony of being so adamant on lower lag mesh and also a Belleza user... I am hoping that when Belleza finally updates next they will do something similar to what Maitreya just did... but even Maitreya has more polygons than something like Regalia - folks really want low lag, make a "furries only" venue... 😉 )

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Rolig Loon]

I'm not sure what the fuss is about.  I have been in Shop & Hop for the past hour.  When I enter a new region, my frame rate drops momentarily into the teens as my viewer downloads a zillion new textures, but it climbs back up to between 30 and 40 very quickly.  I'm not feeling major lag as I move around.  Granted, most regions have fewer than 20 people in them right now, so this may be a quiet time of day, but performance seems acceptable to me.  Of course, I'm not seeing much that I want to buy, but that's another matter .... 

[Blaise Glendevon]

[Moderator Edit - Off Topic Content Removed]

Edited July 1, 2020 by Dakota Linden
[Moderator Edit - Off Topic Content Removed]

[animats]

I have to say that Fantasy Faire was head and shoulders above every other big event this year. The place was beautifully built, and didn't lag much despite high detail.

[Bree Giffen]

I can only report for myself but I went through the Shop n Hop this weekend and didn't have many problems. There was no walking in place or rubber-banding and no problems when buying things. I used the second lowest graphic preset on the default viewer while turning all avatars to jelly dolls. I was honestly surprised at the performance compared to last year.

[belindacarson]

Praise be to the marketplace 😁

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Setting physics shape to none isn't a "trick." Having no physics shape means the sim doesn't have to consider the object's components for physics calculations. (Besides the root, which must have a physics shape.) It's an objective benefit and doesn't lower LI unless the object had higher physics weight than download (render) weight. So, if it worked for that object, it was a fixable problem.

You can right-click an object and "inspect" it. The inspect window will show you the Texture Memory being used by that object's components, which you can use to estimate what size the textures might be. With a little experience it becomes very easy to tell.

Asking "are you sure you removed the scripts," if that really happens, makes me think that the 'matron' is checking the contents of every object by hand, which I wouldn't recommend because it's slow and error-prone. You can right-click on an object and get "Script Info" to instantly get an exact count of all scripts in every component of the object, how much CPU time they're averaging, and how many of them are turned on/off. (I'm pretty sure it's not LL Viewer functionality, but anyway.)

Removing lights also seems extreme, they can be turned off in the viewer's settings and have no effect on sim performance.

As I said, there are always contrarians to what I say, and you're always one.

I personally think setting physics to "none" isn't advisable as it generates a scary error message about how prims "can't" have "no shape". You can put "convex hull" just as easy which reduces prims, but not always, and "phantom".

You can wear a script sensor and that will give you a list of scripted things, you don't have to hand-examine every single one.

You're wrong about light, as the point is not what you/the viewer/the client side sees, but *the script itself". A candle script can be removed, as surely you know, and the prim will stay lit, so that way you have eliminated the script. Lindens tell you to do this, so I don't think it is mere "lore".

"Inspect" isn't on the SL viewer.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I can verify that FOR ME right before opening the framerates were very good -- like 40ish this with all my normal defaults. 

 

I am currently standing in front of my area and have a framerate of 15. If I derender all the avatars near me (which I do in every event). My framerate goes to 27. This with only 19 people in the sim. I would suspect that with more people ALSO derendered the frame rate difference would be more broad. 

 

Just now some folks walked up to me and my framerate plummeted.  

 

I do agree that there should be a landing point set for the center of the sims and that is not always the case.

 

Turning off scripts in furniture that you are selling makes NO sense to me as the point of the examples is for people to TEST and they cannot test if the scripts aren't working.   Personally I have never used vendors and I script very lightly (poses and now and then a texture change script or on off lighting).   I personally have always had more issues with Fantasy Faire than Hop and Shop although this year the main builds  at FF seemed to be better --- especially some from the long time OMG heavy mesh making folks :D.   

 

That's my short input.  

Yes, right on cue, the usual contrarians step up and contraire.

"Works on My Machine".

It's not about turning off scripts in furniture that YOU sell and someone might want to test. It's about removing scripts for light or rotation or other things that either leave their effect on the prim, or else are not needed for something like sitting down. So that means you can remove all scripts in lamps, candles, etc.; all shrink/re-size scripts; rotate scripts (who needs spinning things anyway, they're annoying); texture change scripts (those can be big script time eaters -- pick one texture and leave it, unless it is a feature of the thing you are selling). The overwhelming majority of merchants use one essentially monopoly vendor.

[Prokofy Neva]

6 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

I'm not sure what the fuss is about.  I have been in Shop & Hop for the past hour.  When I enter a new region, my frame rate drops momentarily into the teens as my viewer downloads a zillion new textures, but it climbs back up to between 30 and 40 very quickly.  I'm not feeling major lag as I move around.  Granted, most regions have fewer than 20 people in them right now, so this may be a quiet time of day, but performance seems acceptable to me.  Of course, I'm not seeing much that I want to buy, but that's another matter .... 

As a computer programming expert and builder in SL, you probably have a better/more expensive computer with a better/more expensive graphics card. Most people experience lag. And there is no reason not to take the steps I've mentioned that are in every single other event, including Linden events, and remove the bling scripts out of those dreadful hanging hedges, just to take one example, plus all that moving water in all those ridiculous pools.

[Prokofy Neva]

8 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

complex avatars. complex builds, too many scripts on vendors, too many scripts on avatars...

All which yes, can be dealt with.

First they could turn off scripts for visitors.
Then they could limit max complexity to something silly-low. In the "no mesh for you" realm of under 15,000.

But I suspect the real problem is the builds.

Because Prok notes going when there are not that many people, and show friends only on, and yet it doesn't help.

(Show friends only rarely helps anyway... it doesn't do anything for script issues for example).

 

For the builds they could dictate rules about max texture size, max land impact for items, some rules over LOD to block the people that use LOD tricks to get around land-impact limits, require everything rezzed out to have a 'physics type' of convex hull OR prim. No setting to 'none' (which is a trick to lower land impact).

They could also either - disallow the use of vendors, or require everyone use the same brand of vendor that is scripted to have one script running across the whole sim and some networking tricks to get it to work for everyone individually...

Or... I dunno...

It seems to me like we're hitting a point where we need some scripters to come in an design 'event wide script manager' systems...

 

Before I got my new computer last year (running a 2080rtx GPU on a high end CPU and Ram) I often found that it was bad mesh that got me most. LOD tricks used on gatchas - there are a number of popular gatchas that would instant crash any viewer I used if I got them in camera view on my old MacBook.
- I suspect those same items would cause major performance issues on other more current machines as well, and most people are NOT using a 2080rtx GPU so would suffer from those kinds of things...

Better enforcement of policies around what the merchants can rez out would likely solve a lot.

 

Go and examine the mall build itself, I think that's creating the problem as to complexity of build, vertices, scripts not removed that could be etc. Also some of the merchants have made quite complex builds.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

As I said, there are always contrarians to what I say, and you're always one.

I'm not a contrarian to what you say, Prokofy. It's not that personal. I didn't respond to like 90% of what you wrote, which I agree with, I only quoted a couple very small bits of what you said because I like trying to correct misconceptions. You weren't the main reason I posted either -- when I originally read your post, I just went "yeah that's about right, moving on..."

I sometimes even make the conscious effort to not respond to some of your posts because I don't want to annoy you because you'll be like this, so I can say for a fact that I'm not "always one."

Or maybe I'm just being a contrarian yet again.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

"Inspect" isn't on the SL viewer.

Apparently so. You can get to "Inspect Object" by: Right-click > Object Profile > Details, but it shows no useful info compared to Firestorm.

But I did find this instead:

1. Ctrl+Alt+Q to enable the Developer menu (top bar)
2. Select an object
3. Develop > Rendering > Selected Texture Info Basis (Ctrl+Alt+Shift+T)

This will give you a popup for each texture on the object and tell you the exact size/face they are on. (The below is the result for my bed, which is a linkset.) It may be showing a popup for the same texture multiple times if it's used in multiple links, but I don't have time to check that right now. It's something at least.

And of course, this is on the LL viewer.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Rachel1206]

I am European and hence visiting at times of the day, where US traffic is lower. But I was surprised, how easy I could move around and had excellent FPS in general with my normal setting between High and Ultra (have a good fast gaming laptop). I thought someone either Linden or Mole did excellent job there.

In general I find Linden LB did excellent job on SL17B, even at a live concert with 120+ ppl, things worked well, of course we all could feel the impact of so many avatars, but not like things going to halt and super slow rezz.

 

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I personally think setting physics to "none" isn't advisable as it generates a scary error message about how prims "can't" have "no shape". You can put "convex hull" just as easy which reduces prims, but not always, and "phantom".

A minor point (and one with minimal effect on event lag) is that this "None" setting serves a slightly different purpose than "phantom", and necessarily applies only to some links in an object; that "scary error message" is the hint that it cannot apply to the root prim, but can be applied to all others. So if one has a linked object with parts that shouldn't block colliders (such as foliage you should be able to walk through) and other parts that should be barriers (tree trunks, say), "None" is just the trick needed.

Out of idle interest, I went to visit Shop & Hop during off hours (as usual for me) and of course there weren't many avatars in the regions, which explains why the sim statistics (Ctrl-Shift-1) showed 6 milliseconds "Spare Time". That probably doesn't apply during "prime time" for these regions, but in passing: If there's Spare Time, there's nothing to be gained by reducing scripts. (Well... scripts can do stuff that creates non-script lag. Physics is the most common server-side example but scripts can also set up effects that lag viewers even when the script isn't itself using any sim resources. But reducing your avatar or build scripts won't really help with that.)

There are good reasons to favor scripted AOs over viewer-resident AOs, at least for some applications. I agree with @Pussycat Catnap that (usually) the newer llSetAnimationOverride()-based scripts are adequate, and significantly less active than the venerable ZHAO-based AOs (which themselves are much less laggy than some popular animator-scripted kludges). Hence, I've shifted over to NirAO which is mostly all I need (although I'm not finding it on Marketplace now - god only knows, it's open source with what appears to be a license grant at the top of the script, so I guess it could be shared). I mention all this because I anticipate a whole new class of super-laggy avatars, one feature of which will be server-side AOs that synchronize elaborate attached animeshes with the avatar's own motion. I mean real body parts (hair, for example or, say, octopus arms) with their own "skeletons" that animate in synchrony with the avatar's own skeleton (not the current crop of drag-along animesh entourages of pets and bodyguards and floozies).

11 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

... Same with Sanarae, even Shiny Shabby -- all of them have ditched their elaborate builds in favour of builds that reduce lag and therefore increase sales. After all, if you want to go look at a build, you can go to a Destination or some romantic spot, you don't need to go to a laggy event you can't even see. [...]

I realize that Soviet-style gigantism, a style that Moles like other virtual architects fall back on because they are lacking in other models for the masses they wish to bring, dies very hard out of the repetoire. But it must. ...

I'm no fan of this "mall" build. In contrast, though, the cited Fantasy Faire is a good example of extraordinarily elaborate builds by creators who know what they're doing, and they're an actual draw for shoppers. Or at least I for one wouldn't have bothered attending for the shopping, and yet I bought some stuff there while wandering around enjoying the region builds. Also, the "gigantism" of this Shop & Hop build is similar in practical motivation to these other multi-region events: build it big in order to spread it out across multiple regions, thus spreading out the crowds of avatars. What a talented builder does with all that space, though, is why it's (really) an art.

[Qie Niangao]

Wandering around some more, I was reminded of a question that's bugged me for a while:

Why do all these places use scripted gift-givers, instead of simple "sell contents" boxes? I realize it's a trivial script, but what's the point?

(Also: Coincidentally, as I was typing the above post about a new generation of wildly laggy avatars, I was unwittingly standing right next to a store that sells animesh medusa hair and octopus hats. It would be spooky, if it weren't so obvious. Still, it's quite a coincidence to have been standing right there, writing about just that thing, with no hint that it even existed yet.)

[Cinos Field]

I personally found that the regions were largely acceptable in the early access period, which suggests to me that the problem is other avatars. It's not uncommon to see people with several megabytes of scripts. Sure, the regions themselves might not be optimally set up, but all of that rather pales when the crowds roll in with 8 mb in color change scripts and 3 million triangles (I'm not kidding, by the way - it's also common to see 1m polygon bodies, heads, and wardrobes all on one avatar).

The better, crowd-sourced solution to the lag does seem, to me, to simply remove avatars over certain levels of resource usage. That way the seemingly overworked moles don't have to do all of it, but the visitors themselves do.

A sidenote: I actually far prefer the mall approach for shopping. I like the focus; in this region, I shop, and there's nothing else to do. For Fantasy Faire and such I only managed to get through one sim because everything was so needlessly ornamental

[Chic Aeon]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Yes, right on cue, the usual contrarians step up and contraire.

"Works on My Machine".

It's not about turning off scripts in furniture that YOU sell and someone might want to test. It's about removing scripts for light or rotation or other things that either leave their effect on the prim, or else are not needed for something like sitting down. So that means you can remove all scripts in lamps, candles, etc.; all shrink/re-size scripts; rotate scripts (who needs spinning things anyway, they're annoying); texture change scripts (those can be big script time eaters -- pick one texture and leave it, unless it is a feature of the thing you are selling). The overwhelming majority of merchants use one essentially monopoly vendor.

As already stated, I rarely use any of those "other scripts". Aside from some lighting scripts and AVsitter scripts the only other script in my shop there is the OFFICIAL gift giver script in the suitcase.  I even have my demo landmarks as purchase for 0.   I personally hate vendors. I like the OLD way of things where you can easily see how much something costs by mousing over the item AND you usually (at my store) get the exact item that you see on the floor you aren't just buying from a vendor.   

 

I don't see how MY anecdotal evidence differs from YOUR anecdotal evidence :D.    My computer is four years old now and my graphic's card close to the lower end of the  powerful list (down at 30 on a 100 scale) so it isn't like I have the newest and fastest machine.   It is obvious from the comments here though that this June's  Hop and Shop was not problematically laggy for everyone.