Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Guest

is sl relationships cheating on rl relationships

Recommended Posts


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

 

The main problem with a relationship in SL with an intimate component  is you don't never know whose at the other end of these conversations, it could be a group of teenagers  playing on their parents account,  it could be someone out  on parole. You  have no way to know that the person you partnered has clear boundries which are in lock step with yours, regardless of what they agree to.  And to know for sure means getting too close to RL information which is inadvisable, so its a circular problem.  Also, by offering yourself as a submissive you  are announcing you are
potentially
easily led and easily victimized.  I know there are sophisticated people in this lifestyle who are well versed in that in the BD/SM lifestyle there is an agreed upon exchange of power set within the framework of rules and expected behaviors , however these people are for the most part in RL, not in a virtual world.

 

I'd go one step further when you're talking about D/s relationships (and in sl, you most assuredly are :) ). These online relationships are one way. Submissive women tend to go on looking for someone they can be vulnerable with, and dominant, or wannabe dominant, men tend to go on looking for someone who will think they are strong.

So what you get is completely one way relationships. The submissive woman offloads her woes, troubles and worries and never has to worry about reciprocating or being strong for her partner. She can let him think she's got a single tear sliding down her perfect cheek like a raindrop on crystal rather than the red-faced snotty mess she really is. He, for his part, doesn't actually have to do anything difficult or inconvenient; all he has to do is listen to her and be sympathetic, which is easy in cyberspace (he's probably IMing five other people at the same time so he's not getting bored). The one-way offloading, the idea of having someone else be strong all the time, is such classic psychology there's a name for it which I don't know. But it's exactly what happens when people fall in love with their doctors or therapists. Add to it emotionally explosive cybersex and it's not surprising that your real life partner starts to look a bit dull in comparison. She thinks this is a man who can be strong enough for her not to have to be, ever, and he thinks he's got a woman who is endlessly adoring and worshipful and thinks he has balls of solid rock.

(Yes, I'm aware the dom is not always a man and the sub is not always a woman. I'm generalising.)

Is it any wonder the rl partner, with the dirty socks on the floor and the insistence on taking out the rubbish and talking about their boring day starts to pale?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

The main problem with a relationship in SL with an intimate component  is you don't never know whose at the other end of these conversations, it could be a group of teenagers  playing on their parents account,  it could be someone out  on parole. You  have no way to know that the person you partnered has clear boundaries which are in lock step with yours, regardless of what they agree to.  And to know for sure means getting too close to RL information which is inadvisable, so its a circular problem.

Nacy, there are many people in SL that are not inworld anonymously.  I'll be attending a science meeting inworld today, and probably half the people attending, will have RL professional info on their profiles.  It's not just the science people in SL that "out" themselves, there are RL writers, artists, musicians, and others in SL, who share their RL names and identities.  So, your scenario is one that is a "maybe" not an absolute. 

 


Nacy Nightfire wrote:  Also, by offering yourself as a submissive you  are announcing you are
potentially
easily led and easily victimized.  I know there are sophisticated people in this lifestyle who are well versed in that in the BD/SM lifestyle there is an agreed upon exchange of power set within the framework of rules and expected behaviors , however these people are for the most part in RL, not in a virtual world.

I disagree.   It's quite the contrary.   Many who are "submissive" in a D/s relationship, are not submissive at all, beyond that particular relationship.  Not only are they not submissive in their daily personas, but are very often extremely strong-willed, assertive, and not easily led. 

Also, one does not toss aside the power to discern and make decisions when entering into a relationship.  The people who have trouble with boundaries in a vanilla relationship are the same type of people who will have trouble with boundaries in a D/s relationship.  Drama-prone, poor-decision-making-people are not unique to a particular lifestyle, and all you have to do to know that, is to observe the world at large.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Elisheva Sopwith wrote:

I'd go one step further when you're talking about D/s relationships (and in sl, you most assuredly are
:)
). These online relationships are one way. Submissive women tend to go on looking for someone they can be vulnerable with, and dominant, or wannabe dominant, men tend to go on looking for someone who will think they are strong.

You're creating a stereotype, based upon...what?  Is that your experience?  Or are you speculating?  I suspect that you're speculating about something with which you do not actually have any experience.  (correct me if I'm wrong) 

Elisheva, in RL there are people who are not actively seeking dates or relationships.   These people are pursuing their interests and participating in activities.   Not actually "looking" for a relationship, and yet one day while pursuing an interest, they happen to meet someone they "click" with.   Well, the same thing happens in SL.  People can be in SL working on scripts, building, creating, science, music, etc...and meet someone and a rapport develops.  As the friendship evolves, the dynamics and chemistry also evolve in a certain direction.  

Do not assume that all the people in SL are clueless kids and have led an unexamined life. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Celestiall, of course. 

SL is a platform. Role play, and  anonymous interactions/relationships exist here alongside the SL world of business and education where it is necessary and makes sense for people to share RL information and credentials in a controlled way.  I don't think we are discussing this latter scenario in this particular post..  This is, ostensibly,  a RL married person considering an intimate SL relationship.

And I'll repeat myself:

I know there are sophisticated people in this lifestyle who are well versed in that in the BD/SM lifestyle there is an agreed upon exchange of power set within the framework of rules and expected behaviors ".

Again...framework of rules.  The play will stop and the exchange of power ends when the roleplay ends.  Who hasn't heard about a gazillion stories of powerful politicians who are outed as having engaged in a scene as a submissive with a professional dom.  Quite obviously when these men have their entertainment and release they return to their position of power.

And you wrote: "  The people who have trouble with boundaries in a vanilla relationship are the same type of people who will have trouble with boundaries in a D/s relationship.  Drama-prone, poor-decision-making-people are not unique to a particular lifestyle, and all you have to do to know that, is to observe the world at large."

Well maybe I am ALSO guilty of stating many obvious things, the however you simply stating that people with problems are people with problems.  You will get no argument from me here.

Finally:

"Drama-prone, poor-decision-making-people are not unique to a particular lifestyle" 

Emmm...who said they were.  Are you trying to defend your lifestyle?  If so be a bit more upfront  about it. Its irritating how frequently people feel they have to jump in and defend the DSBDSM lifestyle thinking they are always on the attack, or they hold superior knowledge about this subject.  I've read the whole d*mn Market Place series, as well as many nonfictional works that describe the lifestyle from the viewpoint of those who live and support it. Personal choice?  I'm not into it, but I'm not in the least in need of an education about the topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

 People can be in SL working on scripts, building, creating, science, music, etc...and meet someone and a rapport develops.  As the friendship evolves, the dynamics and chemistry also evolve in a certain direction.  


They certainly can. If I weren't pretty guarded about my personal life, and if it weren't rather boring for everyone else, I'd share a few details about what happened with me.

But very few people who have fulfilled, satisfying and active real lives spend a great deal of time on the internet creating a semblance of one.  Very few people who talk completely openly with people in rl feel the need to offload on anonymous strangers. And even if you did accidentally fall into a relationship on sl, the fact still remains that internet relationships have a number of "advantages" over rl ones, especially for people who find themselves drawn to a certain dynamic.

If this hasn't happened to you, well done, you have found the elusive functional online relationship. Jack in your real one.


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

 I suspect that you're speculating about something with which you do not actually have any experience.  (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

I do like to have permission first. You are wrong. Do not make assumptions...

 

 

*Edited to fix formatting and because I somehow deleted my last line by mistake, because I'm just that clever.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

 

Finally:

"
Drama-prone, poor-decision-making-people are not unique to a particular lifestyle" 

Emmm...who said they were.  Are you trying to defend your lifestyle?  If so be a bit more upfront  about it. Its irritating how frequently people feel they have to jump in and defend the DSBDSM lifestyle thinking they are always on the attack, or they hold superior knowledge about this subject.  I've read the whole d*mn Market Place series, as well as many nonfictional works that describe the lifestyle from the viewpoint of those who live and support it. Personal choice?  I'm not into it, but I'm not in the least in need of an education about the topic.

Now, I'm laughing in RL.  : )  

You clearly stated an opinion about D/s relationships and you said that you thought a submissive in such a relationship, must be " potentially easily led and easily victimized".   But, my point is, that there is no difference between a vanilla/D/s relationship for numbers of people who are "potentially easily led and easily victimized."   As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet that there are *more* people who are in regular vanilla relationships who are easily led and victimized.   (I'll do some research on this, but publicly available statistics are in my favor on this)

Postscript:

Also, I have no idea what the "Market Place" series is, so not sure what you're talking there.  (oh, I just Googled it..hehe   Well, I do find it interesting that you have read an entire fictionalized series based upon BDSM... : )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm very glad you are seeing the humor in all this.  I too constantly get a "good belly laugh" when people, such as yourself, get all up-in-arms about their bdsm lifestyle, as if they have to bravely defend it and educate everyone who declares it doesn't float their personal boat. 

There absolutely IS a greater potential for people, who don't grasp the subtlies of the concept, to jump right into a potentially damaging submissive role play because they don't know enough to know the "rules" subtle or otherwise.  And no, this isn't the exclusive domain of this lifestyle. But who said it is.  We weren't discussing vanilla relationships.

You quoted me by saying   "must be    " potentially easily led and easily victimized".   But that's a less then clever twisting of my words  since I didn't say "must be"..that was your spin and it makes absolutely no sense.  Must be potentially? eh?  Let's now quote me in CONTEXT, shall we?:

" Also, by offering yourself as a submissive you  are announcing you are potentially easily led and easily victimized.  I know there are sophisticated people in this lifestyle who are well versed in that in the BD/SM lifestyle there is an agreed upon exchange of power set within the framework of rules and expected behaviors , however these people are for the most part in RL, not in a virtual world."

Furthermore you finished with:

"I'd be willing to bet that there are *more* people who are in regular vanilla relationships who are easily led and victimized.   (I'll do some research on this, but publicly available statistics are in my favor on this)"

So you'd be willing to BET, but at the same time you seem to KNOW that statistics are on your favor on this...which is it?  Do you think so, do you know so, and why then do you need to do research to find the statistics?  BTW there are no statistics available on this.  Now  my turn to laugh.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also wrote "I've read the whole d*mn Market Place series, as well as many nonfictional works that describe the lifestyle from the viewpoint of those who live and support it."

Note that I also said:  as well as MANY NON FICTIONAL WORKS that describe the lifestyle from the viewpoint of those who live and support it This is in no way an endorsement of the Marketplace series, btw...I really had to put on a big push to read it to the end.

Where did I learn about the Marketplace series?  From people who actually live this lifestyle in RL and recommended I read it to get some sense of motivation behind the participants in BDSM, because quite frankly I was mystified about the whole obsession when I joined SL.Yes,  its a classic piece of BDSM erotica, so I'm quite surprised you never heard of it, and I will quote from wikipedia:

"The series is frequently cited by BDSM aficionados as one of the most realistic portrayals of a fictional slave-training community, with conscious effort by the author to create a real sense of the economics of the structure while setting the Marketplace within the contemporary real world. There is an enormous diversity of characters in age, body type and sexual orientation. Many conversations between characters explore the nature of dominance and submission, sadomasochism, and the difference between consensual pair-bonded BDSM relationships and being sold as chattel to the highest bidder."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nacy Nightfire wrote:

....


Nacy, your last two posts are rife with defensive confrontational text.  I prefer to discuss, but that does not seem to be where you are taking this.   

Shalom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

You clearly stated an opinion about D/s relationships and you said that you thought a submissive in such a relationship, must be "
potentially
easily led and easily victimized
".   But, my point is, that there is no difference between a vanilla/D/s relationship for numbers of people who are
"potentially
easily led and easily victimized
." 

This could be true, although I don't know how you'd prove it. If you don't have any statistics, I'd be wary of making claims about figures and parity of numbers in all fields.

But I think most people would agree that the risks for someone who is impressionable and easily led are greater in a D/s relationship than a vanilla one. It would also make sense if people with a need for being guided or led - not necessarily by just anyone, perhaps just by one person they deem worthy, but a need nonetheless - find themselves more drawn to this dynamic. I'm not judging. I have D/s experience in sl and rl so you don't need to inform me about how it's supposed to work.


Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet that there are *more* people who are in regular vanilla relationships who are easily led and victimized.   (I'll do some research on this, but publicly available statistics are in my favor on this)


I've just done some searching, and I can't find any. Links, please.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It all depends on how you look at it!   Personally, I think it's their life and therefore, If they want to have a SL relationship while being in an RL one, they should at the very least inform their SL lover about it so they don't get freaked when the person goes "Brb, My wife wants me."   As long as the SL relationship doesn't get in the way of RL and as long as all parties are fine with it, I don't see the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many thanks for posting the topic.

Here are some thoughts. Since a relationship is an agreement between two parties then it is all about what the terms of the agreement are. If its a traditional forsaking all others type of agreement then the answer is yes. If the terms are based on a more casual open relationship then its all fair game.

It is all about the terms of the agreement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am chuckling as I read this, because so many of you totally ignore some things stated by the OP. I don't know if you are so emotional when it comes to having SL affairs when you are married in RL, that you skip to read what it says and just start to rant about what you feel.

First: The OP and her RL spouse both play SL.

Second: She is not hiding what she does from him. Neither is he.

Third: They agreed upon having SL affairs, as long as no RL is mixed in.

I am also slightly amused about how you see RL relationships in solid black and white. If the RL relationship is sound, there is no need for SL... and ALL who use SL must be terrible unhappy in RL. Nothing in between.

I had good sex in RL last night. I and my husband have both been on SL since 2007. We don't think SL is a problem, but RL involvment is a big NO. RL names? No. RL pictures? No. Skype, voice, cam? No, no, no. There is our line, and no one of us have had any trouble with it. I think our marrage would be much more in danger if any of us started to flirt with a co-worker in RL, instead of logging in to talk dirty with a stranger living on the other side of the world.

Someone mentioned a couple where she found IM logs where her husband talked bad about her and said he would leave her for the SL affair. This sounds like ther is some pretty hard RL involvment. Both must respect these limits.

I really don't think I am the only one who can separate SL and RL. My RL is good but I am sometimes bored to death. Get kids to school, go to work, grocery store, dinner, wash up, homework, collaps in  front of TV or find a book, go to sleep, repeat, repeat, repeat.  We all have our chores and economical limits. SL is a short break in the daily routine. Be something you can't be in RL. Dress like a model, fly, be a vampire, live in a castle floating up in the air, create stuff, be a landlord, a stripper.... whatever.

Our relationship is not perfect, but we have never had a big fight over SL. I am more annoyed when football season starts, to be honest. Because he can't skip a single game... aargh. But I have not divorced him over that... yet. ;)  Hehe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Marianne Little wrote:

Someone mentioned a couple where she found IM logs where her husband talked bad about her and said he would leave her for the SL affair. This sounds like ther is some pretty hard RL involvment. Both must respect these limits.


That was me (who told the anecdote. Not, thank God, who was in the story). The funny thing is, this couple did actually have a "no rl" deal - no rl pictures, voice, cam, etc. That didn't stop the husband from becoming much too carried away with the women he met online, and in fairness to him, the wife also developed an attachment to someone else that left her feeling dissatisfied with her husband.

The point is, I think, that there IS rl involvement when you're having ongoing intense sexy interaction with someone. Your real personality and desires are involved, and the fact the person can't see your face becomes rather immaterial. I have a theory (I will happily admit it is only a theory based on my observations, and I anticipate a flood of responses telling me I'm completely wrong) that humans are not very good at separating sex and love. Of course, not every hook up leads to a grand passion, but in my experience it is a very very very rare person who can sleep around without much discrimination and not cause or have any heartache as a result.

Certainly if you have decided you are in a defined relationship with someone, to the point where you want everyone who looks at your profile to be aware of your connection with each other, you are not just bunny hugging.

If sl sex has really not had any negative impact upon your marriage, then kudos and congratulations. (Though I maintain that there's a difference between relieving your boredom by pretending to fly or wear designer clothes, and by sharing intimate secrets with people.) But you are very very very rare. I wouldn't advise it in general. I certainly wouldn't advise it to someone who is so uncertain of herself, what she wants and what is acceptable in her own mind that she starts threads asking us all for advice on her personal life every other day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 


Elisheva Sopwith wrote:


Marianne Little wrote:

Someone mentioned a couple where she found IM logs where her husband talked bad about her and said he would leave her for the SL affair. This sounds like ther is some pretty hard RL involvment. Both must respect these limits.


That was me (who told the anecdote. Not, thank God, who was in the story). The funny thing is, this couple did actually have a "no rl" deal - no rl pictures, voice, cam, etc. That didn't stop the husband from becoming much too carried away with the women he met online, and in fairness to him, the wife also developed an attachment to someone else that left her feeling dissatisfied with her husband.

The point is, I think, that there IS rl involvement when you're having ongoing intense sexy interaction with someone. Your real personality and desires are involved, and the fact the person can't see your face becomes rather immaterial. I have a theory (I will happily admit it is only a theory based on my observations, and I anticipate a flood of responses telling me I'm completely wrong) that humans are not very good at separating sex and love. Of course, not every hook up leads to a grand passion, but in my experience it is a very very very rare person who can sleep around without much discrimination and not cause or have any heartache as a result.

Certainly if you have decided you are in a defined relationship with someone, to the point where you want everyone who looks at your profile to be aware of your connection with each other, you are not just bunny hugging.

If sl sex has really not had any negative impact upon your marriage, then kudos and congratulations. (Though I maintain that there's a difference between relieving your boredom by pretending to fly or wear designer clothes, and by sharing intimate secrets with people.) But you are very very very rare. I wouldn't advise it in general. I certainly wouldn't advise it to someone who is so uncertain of herself, what she wants and what is acceptable in her own mind that she starts threads asking us all for advice on her personal life every other day.

Highly Accurate Post is highly accurate.

 

(I know! I've checked!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Kascha.

There was something else Marianne didn't address. She claims sl sex hasn't had any negative effect on her marriage (I'm a bit dubious, but I guess she'd know better than I would), but she hasn't mentioned whether it's had an effect on someone else's.

Some people don't believe they are responsible for someone else's relationship, but I have to say it's not something that would rest easily on my own mind, personally. The husband in the anecdote I shared hit on me several times and tried to get me to enter a sustained relationship with him. There were several reasons I declined.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elisheva, I can only speak for myself.  I've dabbled a bit with "partnering" and other intimate encounters here in SL and I'm very happily married.  My husband knows what I'm up to in SL and he's free to do the same, although he has absolutely no interest in SL. As a RL married couple we lead very happy and fullfilling lives and we have a very close, protective relationship.  Truth and full disclosure are important to us both.  Both my husband and I view this as entertainment and my husband is delighted to have someone/something keeping me entertained as he works extremely hard and spends a great time working at home in the evenings.

The added complexity of the RL spouse of the other SL partner on the other hand, is an interesting one to bring up.  I also have been approached to enter into a relationship with a few RL married men in SL, some of whose (not all) wives were also in SL and independantly free to have relationships with other men.  In three of cases that come to mind the wives were introduced to me, ostensibly to make it easier for me to make up my mind about the slaffair.   In absolutely every case (except once, and we conducted ourselves in a completely "chaste" manner, out of respect for this man's RL wife's wishes) I just couldn't go thru with it.  Even with the wife's blessing it seemed like asking for unimagined complications and trouble plus in instances where the wife wasn't in SL I really had no way to confirm a wife actually approved of her husbands SL dalliances.  It was never worth it to me to take a chance I might be hurting someone.

So I strictly "dated" men I felt certain as best I could be, that were single or single due to divorce.  Now I don't do any of this..  I've had fun exploring that side of SL, I found it ultimately problematic for  reasons that are not germane to this OP and I stopped exploring the partnering thing 2 years ago.  But it had no effect on my marriage in either a positive or negative direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Kascha Matova wrote:

Other than that, if you are still that interested in what others feel about SL cheating, there are at this point probably 358 earlier threads on the subject, since it can't possibly ever be beaten to death, enough.


358? I missed one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: "is sl relationships cheating on rl relationships"

Only if you get 'caught' cheating - then you are cheating.  However, I suggest that you 'always' deny any indiscretions when confronted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You wrote:  "Only if you get 'caught' cheating - then you are cheating.  However, I suggest that you 'always' deny any indiscretions when confronted."

Obviously that was said with humor, but really "cheating" implys there are rules that parties agree on.  This is not exclusive to  marriage since these day many people have "open" marriages and other novel contracts that are exclusive to themselves. 

So if one spouse is following the rules that both set down and agreed upon for that specific marriage, and the other breaks the rules, then its cheating.

On another thread, Storm, you mentioned you fired an employee for cheating on his wife.  I agreed the employee should be fired, but for a different reason which is using bad judgement.  Nothing generally good happens when  employees, either married or single, fraternize on that level with other employees, or with customers or customer's employees. So more important then not trusting him about lying to his spouse and being untrustworthy as to truthfullness to you, since you assume this employee is lying his/her spouse, is not trusting him/her to have the company's best interests at heart and not trusting him/her to use good judgement.

It's possible that this employee, in fact, had an open marriage with his/her spouse, and there was no cheating involved.  It wasn't clear enough in your post whether you knew the employee's personal affairs well enough to make that judgement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one can really judge your relationship but you, since you're the one who is experiencing it. As long as you and your husband are open about it, and okay with everything, do what you want.

I met my RL boyfriend in SL, and we currently live together. We are both partnered in SL, and play together. We don't have any desire to "date" other avatars in SL, because we enjoy being a couple in SL as well as real life. We do this, because we choose not to seperate our RL selves from our SL personalities. You should do whatever makes you happy, I say.

Most of the relationships I've observed in SL are often fleeting, you don't have to spend a great deal of time in SL to realize that fact. It seems like it's a rare thing for a lasting, genuine relationship to happen in SL. So, in that respect, I suppose it can be very easy for couples to relegate extra-marital relationships to SL. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

You wrote:  "
Only if you get 'caught' cheating - then you are cheating.  However, I suggest that you 'always' deny any indiscretions when confronted."

Obviously that was said with humor, but really "cheating" implys there are rules that parties agree on.  This is not exclusive to  marriage since these day many people have "open" marriages and other novel contracts that are exclusive to themselves. 

So if one spouse is following the rules that both set down and agreed upon for that specific marriage, and the other breaks the rules, then its cheating.

On another thread, Storm, you mentioned you fired an employee for cheating on his wife.  I agreed the employee should be fired, but for a different reason which is using bad judgement.  Nothing generally good happens when  employees, either married or single, fraternize on that level with other employees, or with customers or customer's employees. So more important then not trusting him about lying to his spouse and being untrustworthy as to truthfullness to you, since you assume this employee is lying his/her spouse, is not trusting him/her to have the company's best interests at heart and not trusting him/her to use good judgement.

It's possible that this employee, in fact, had an open marriage with his/her spouse, and there was no cheating involved.  It wasn't clear enough in your post whether you knew the employee's personal affairs well enough to make that judgement.

I did not dismiss an employee for 'cheating' or being unfaithful to his wife, he was dismissed for "involving" fellow employees and clients in his philandering.  His personal business is his business until it affects MY business.   

As 'bright' as his mind was, I was glad to let him go.  It weighed on others.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must have misunderstood your original post. 

You wrote: "I was not and will judge SL people who do not practice monogamy.  Although in RL I have.  I have terminated friendships with married male friends who carouse and womanize.  I have terminated an employee for the same reasons. "

Now I see there wasn't enough information in your post to make the "leap"  that I did in my post.  My apologies.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...