Left, came back, and now totally confused about avatars

[Kira Skydancer]

Back in the day, I was pretty close to an expert SL user - I modded everything in sight, built stuff, none of my avatars were out of the box.  Then, I left, came back, and everything's changed.

My current human avatar is classic.  I went shopping for new hair, picked up a Lamb demo (with HUD), tried and failed to wear it - and, yes, I Added the alpha texture... So then I tried one of the avatars from me/choose an avatar - and still couldn't figure out how to do hair properly. No matter what I do, I just have a blank head.

Can someone give me a bit of instruction from the POV of someone who is familiar with how to use Classic stuff?  Is there a way to wear mesh hair on a classic AV (rigged?). Plus, clothing... any way for me to use classic clothing on a modern avatar? My body vanished, so only some pieces of clothing (like a cloak) showed.

Appreciate any help you can provide. My old classic hair is bugging me, now that I've seen some of the new types, lol.

[MoiraKathleen]

I'm not familiar with the hair brand you got the demo from, but in general, most hair from popular places should work on a Classic avatar head.  There are still people who still use the Classic head, even with a mesh body.  Generally, the alphas that come with a hair don't need to be worn unless parts of the head poke through the hair and one doesn't want to change their head shape.  

In terms of clothes and a Classic system avatar,  though harder to find, there are still creators making mesh clothing that includes versions for the classic system avatar.  Look for clothes that mention classic system avatar, standard sizes or fitmesh and try demos.  With the mesh clothing, it is common for their to be an 'alpha' layer that hides sections of the body - the alpha is worn along with the mesh clothing item, so the end result is the clothing covering the area that vanished.  If a clothing description mentions appliers or Omega look to see if it also includes system or BOM layers.  Appliers or Omega refer to things that only work on mesh bodies, but system layers or BOM layers will work on classic avatar bodies.

A relatively recent development is BOM (Bakes on Mesh) which allows a system skin or system layer clothing to be 'baked' on a mesh body.    If you want to use classic clothing (system layer clothing) on a modern mesh avatar (such as Maitreya, Belleza, Slink, ebody, Eve, etc.  avatars) you need to activate BOM for that body on the body HUD  (or use the BOM version of the body, if there are 2 versions of the body included with the purchase - Slink includes both their 'classic' version, and a BOM version called Redux; Tonic includes their original version plus a 'lite' version, with BOM being activated on the body HUD).   

Depending on how a particular body brand implements BOM, the body may still include alpha cuts on the body HUD, or there may be no alpha cuts and you need to wear alpha layers with clothes to hide parts of the body which may poke through.   Even with BOM, when looking for mesh clothing you will still want to look for clothing that is rigged for the particular mesh body you are wearing, whether or not you are using the BOM feature.   

If you do not use the BOM feature of a mesh body, then for the mesh body to show a skin layer, you need to buy a skin applier that works with the particular brand of mesh body that you have - you would wear the full body alpha that comes with the mesh body (and hides the system body), wear the mesh body, and then 'apply' a skin either through an option on the body HUD or with a skin applier purchased from a skin maker.   If you are only wearing a mesh body, but not a mesh head, make sure you wear the included body alpha that covers only the body, not the body and head.

If you use the BOM feature of a mesh body, then only the mesh body is worn (not the body alpha) and the skin that the system body was wearing will be visible on the mesh body.

There are youtube video tutorials and explanations, but I don't usually watch those, so I don't know which ones are good ones to recommend.  Most likely someone who posts after me will have some good links to share with you.    

 

 

[Kira Skydancer]

Moira - thanks so much for the thorough answer, I really appreciate it.  Now I just need to digest it all, and try again. If anyone does have good tutorials to share, that'd be great!

Also taking suggestions on good brands of avatar stuff - body and clothing, especially fantasy.  I used to buy from !!Husky a lot, but I'm not finding them now.

[Skell Dagger]

52 minutes ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

I used to buy from !!Husky a lot, but I'm not finding them now.

Husky GFX rebranded to Dragansvarg a long time ago. Try a search using that term, maybe?

[Kira Skydancer]

6 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Husky GFX rebranded to Dragansvarg a long time ago. Try a search using that term, maybe?

Thanks!  I was last in SL approx 2014, so it has been a few years. Definitely the same vendor, thanks for that!

[Nalates Urriah]

I'll try to explain in terms that will make sense to someone from the classic body era.

When I came in in 2007 the classic avatar was all there was. Skin and tats were just skin and tats. Clothes were shirts, skirts, underwear, socks, jacket... OR they were a prim attachment.

Along came mesh and we got mesh clothes and a bunch of problems we had to work around. A solution to good portion of the problems was Standard Sizes. The idea was we fit our avatar to the mesh clothes we attached. That turned out to be unpopular. So, some clever people figured out how to make Liquid Mesh. This was mesh that responded to some of the shape sliders. Now clothes sort of fitted the body. At this point the Lindens decided they needed to do do something. They cleaned up the Liquid Mesh hack and made Fitted Mesh which responded to all the shape sliders. Now clothes fit... sort of.

With fitted mesh clever people begin to make better bodies and heads. And of course clothes. But, each designer was doing their thing so stuff is/was not interchangeable. So, you need clothes made for a Slink body if you wear a Slink body.

The big problem is/was the avatar is the only thing/object in SL that can handle texture layers. For us to be able to put makeup on a mesh head we needed some way to stack textures as we do with the classic avatar. Makeup on top of tats on top of skin... etc.

The mesh solution was onion skins... Russian dolls... one inside the other. So, mesh bodies had a copy of the body for skin, another slightly larger for tats, another slightly larger for makeup, hair, lipstick, blush, etc. Basically 4 or 5 copies of the body each a tiny bit larger.

Now there was the problem of getting a skin on the skin layer. And how were we going to select the tat layer that existed between the skin and underwear? Scripts were the answer. Thus APPLIERS were invented and became all the rage. For those people that came in during the last 3 or 5 years, Appliers is all they have known.

Once again the Lindens stepped in. In the last year they released BOM. This system lets us take the original skin, tats and what ever we see in inventory as skin and tats and put them on our classic avatar and via BoM they appear on our mesh body attachment. (This was done to reduce the explosion of 1024 textures being worn by avatar - think performance)

We had to have someway to talk about all these things and be clear what we were talking about. I doubt we ever actually achieved clarity. But the try was made.

So, the Classic skin you know as Skin with its own icon in inventory became Classic or system skin or system layers... same icon in inventory, just a new name for users to use. Nothing has really changed since your day... technically we changed away from system skin to applier skin and now we have changed back. But, there is a generation of residents that is feeling very lost. If you with your old knowledge of SL talk to them... you get really confused.

So, with bodies and heads YOU want BOM ready stuff. Then it will work just like your classic body... and look much better. Ignore everything Applier labeled.

As you get the hang of things you'll see that appliers are still useful. A classic avatar cannot make use of the materials system in SL. That probably has been added while you were away too. Mesh bodies and heads can as they a basically a fancy prim. With a mesh body I can have 3D water drops that dynamically reflect (reflection changes as the avatar turns) local lights. They can be shiny on a mat skin. On the classic avatar they are 2D and skin and water are both mat with any reflections painted on and static. To use materials on a mesh body we still use an applier. There are tech issues not solved that keep materials incompatible with the classic avatar.

I hope this helps you make sense of things.

 

 

[Kira Skydancer]

Ok, one last question. I picked up an EVA complete, rigged mesh avatar (because she was cheap, lol, and I liked the looks - from PoisonRed)... but a search for clothing just brings up a lot of dresses. I'm looking for a top that's more medieval looking - or, preferably, clothing like the classic Vana dragonshirt set that doesn't want to work with her ... if there's a way to make that work, and someone explained that above, I apologize, but just not sure...

[MoiraKathleen]

1 hour ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

Ok, one last question. I picked up an EVA complete, rigged mesh avatar (because she was cheap, lol, and I liked the looks - from PoisonRed)... but a search for clothing just brings up a lot of dresses. I'm looking for a top that's more medieval looking - or, preferably, clothing like the classic Vana dragonshirt set that doesn't want to work with her ... if there's a way to make that work, and someone explained that above, I apologize, but just not sure...

Unless I'm looking at the wrong item in the MP,  EVA looks like it's still a classic system avatar - though with rigged mesh clothing included. When you say that your classic Vana dragonshirt set doesn't work with EVA,  in what way(s) is it not working?  Perhaps you need to adjust your shape?  

[Kira Skydancer]

Thanks, everyone, I'm sorted out now :)

[Kira Skydancer]

5 hours ago, Moira Timmerman said:

Unless I'm looking at the wrong item in the MP,  EVA looks like it's still a classic system avatar - though with rigged mesh clothing included. When you say that your classic Vana dragonshirt set doesn't work with EVA,  in what way(s) is it not working?  Perhaps you need to adjust your shape?  

To be honest, I have no idea, but she's nice. If I take off the shirt that comes with the avatar, that space is invisible, and no clothing applied becomes visible, either (that whole part of the avatar doesn't exist) - I tried the alpha included and that didn't work either, but might have done it wrong.  Doesn't matter, as I found a mesh shirt I like a lot, though I had to adjust my body shape so skin doesn't show through. Also, I just noticed the sit on my dock doesn't work properly with the new avatar - instead of relaxing, arms are crossed and looking up (basically, not bending at the waist as the sit is designed).

[Marianne Little]

The EVA avatar from PoisonRed is not a rigged mesh avatar. It is really old, and maybe it is named the way it is, is because the clothes are rigged. To find out if you have a mesh avatar, take off the shoes and look at the feet. Do they have individual, pretty toes with real nails, or are they the "paddle" feet? I believe it has paddle feet.

The missing body part is because it is wearing an alpha layer that makes that part of the body invisible. If you wear one of these:

-PoisonRed-Eva Alpha Pant
-PoisonRed-Eva Alpha Shirt
-PoisonRed-Eva Alpha Pant+Shirt+Shoes

take them off. You should now see the whole body.

I have already written 2 really long posts in another thread, so I take a shortcut and ask: Will you pay for a mesh avatar, and what is your budget? Because my posts was about a free avatar. https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/456813-how-to-make-avatar-mesh-head-and-body-match-confusion-about-appliers-and-unpacking/

I am talking about BOM in my second post. BOM is a refined version of your avatar. You can wear your Vana outfit if it has clothes symbols, like pants, jackets, shirts and more.

You will soon find out that no new clothes (mesh clothes) or footwear is made for classic avatars. They are made for, Slink, Maitreya, Belleza, Legacy and many others, and work only for them. You can visit the monthly event We Love Role-Play to get a feeling of how fantasy is designed now. https://weloveroleplay.weebly.com/june-2020.html

I have already linked to the free Kalhene avatar in the other thread, I post direct link here as well. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Kalhene-ARIADNA-Bodymesh-BoM-Bento/19717725

You can wear other skins and modify the shape.

As you see, it fits clothing made for the (not free) Maitreya avatar. You should still always demo clothes first, because they does not have to fit perfect even if it says it is made for this. That depends upon how good the creator is.

You should not have to edit your shape to keep skin from clipping through. The modern mesh avatars has clothes that fit like a glove. That is one of the big selling points. Also, demo, demo, demo.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Marianne Little
changed a few words to clarify

[Marianne Little]

On 6/20/2020 at 5:41 PM, Kira Trafalgar said:

Back in the day, I was pretty close to an expert SL user - I modded everything in sight, built stuff, none of my avatars were out of the box.  Then, I left, came back, and everything's changed.

My current human avatar is classic.  I went shopping for new hair, picked up a Lamb demo (with HUD), tried and failed to wear it - and, yes, I Added the alpha texture... So then I tried one of the avatars from me/choose an avatar - and still couldn't figure out how to do hair properly. No matter what I do, I just have a blank head.

Can someone give me a bit of instruction from the POV of someone who is familiar with how to use Classic stuff?  Is there a way to wear mesh hair on a classic AV (rigged?). Plus, clothing... any way for me to use classic clothing on a modern avatar? My body vanished, so only some pieces of clothing (like a cloak) showed.

Appreciate any help you can provide. My old classic hair is bugging me, now that I've seen some of the new types, lol.

Just replying to the part about the hair: Maybe you were only wearing the HUD, not the hair itself. You first wear the hair, this will show up, maybe as solid white. You then add one of the color HUDs, and click on it to select the texture.

A Style HUD let you change the hair, you see it as silhouettes in the ad. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Lamb-Tease-DEMO/18790217

2 breast sizes means that one of them is rigged to make room for a bigger bosom.

I assume you know that you use "Add" now instead of "Wear". You can have multiple items attached/worn now. If you use "wear", you knock of what's already worn on that attachment point/layer. If you "add" instead, it is added and the other clothes and objects stay put.

 

[Kira Skydancer]

12 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

The EVA avatar from PoisonRed is not a rigged mesh avatar. It is really old, and maybe it is named the way it is, is because the clothes are rigged. To find out if you have a mesh avatar, take off the shoes and look at the feet. Do they have individual, pretty toes with real nails, or are they the "paddle" feet? I believe it has paddle feet.

The missing body part is because it is wearing an alpha layer that makes that part of the body invisible. If you wear one of these:

-PoisonRed-Eva Alpha Pant
-PoisonRed-Eva Alpha Shirt
-PoisonRed-Eva Alpha Pant+Shirt+Shoes

take them off. You should now see the whole body.

Thank you. I thought I'd tried this, but apparently not. Did the trick, but I still like the new mesh shirt better than the old shirt anyway :)  I'll have a look at both the post and the avatar you suggest.. if the mesh avatars are the ones in the 1K range... too rich for my blood right now, at least not until I'm more comfortable with the new rules, lol.

[Kira Skydancer]

Marianne, appreciate all your help!

One more question... with the av that you've suggested (which is sitting in my inventory now), will I still be able to make changes like I can with the default avs? Adjusting body size/shape, facial features? I noted that, with the one I have, seems like some options I remember when fiddling with my old av, weren't available with this one (like eye color, but I have loads of eyes anyway, lol).

[Marianne Little]

4 minutes ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

Marianne, appreciate all your help!

One more question... with the av that you've suggested (which is sitting in my inventory now), will I still be able to make changes like I can with the default avs? Adjusting body size/shape, facial features? I noted that, with the one I have, seems like some options I remember when fiddling with my old av, weren't available with this one (like eye color, but I have loads of eyes anyway, lol).

Its body should respond well to the sliders. The faces of the mesh heads has been a bit more difficult to adjust as much as the default head. Some sliders do not work, like jowls I think? And also chin cleft. It varies from head to head. I think you can add only the body, if you find out that you will keep your own face that you have worked on for years.

The body is most important, so you can use the new shoes

 

[Marianne Little]

If you can spend some money, the Akeruka mesh heads give out free heads as a group gift often. The group is 150 L to join. It is worth it for a functional Bento head. You must check the demo head fit your body. https://www.flickr.com/photos/kaoz/49761495568/

 

7deadly Skins have monthly group gifts, and I think the group is only 7 L to join now (to celebrate the shops 7 year anniversary). Group gift fees can vary a lot.

Not appearance, but the COCO store has many clothes as group gifts, and that group is free to join. Sintkilia (hair) is free to join now, if it hasn't ended. Blueberry is free to join and has some group gifts. That store offer store credit gifts to its members often. Last time it was 350 L. Scandalize has a huge wall of group gift clothes, it is worth paying 100 L to join if you like the style.

[Dano Seale]

On 6/22/2020 at 2:16 AM, Kira Trafalgar said:

Also, I just noticed the sit on my dock doesn't work properly with the new avatar - instead of relaxing, arms are crossed and looking up (basically, not bending at the waist as the sit is designed).

1/ Try turning off your AO (if used).

2/ Your "dock" might be owned by one avatar and your new "alt" if such, doesn't have permissions granted. 

Both problems I have with my main and alt's, lol.

[Kira Skydancer]

On 6/23/2020 at 1:30 PM, Dano Seale said:

1/ Try turning off your AO (if used).

2/ Your "dock" might be owned by one avatar and your new "alt" if such, doesn't have permissions granted. 

Both problems I have with my main and alt's, lol.

Duh. Totally forgot i was using an actual AO that can be turned off (I had a similar problem with my old av and there was no AO in worn items). That did the trick, thanks!

[Dano Seale]

27 minutes ago, Kira Trafalgar said:

Duh. Totally forgot i was using an actual AO that can be turned off (I had a similar problem with my old av and there was no AO in worn items). That did the trick, thanks!

Yeah, I've often tried sitting/lying on things and being completely baffled why they won't work...until finally "DOH!"  😆

[Vanity Fair]

Marianne, the Kalhene Ariadna free mesh body has just been removed from the SL Marketplace due to a DMCA complaint filed with Linden Lab. More details here:

https://ryanschultz.com/2020/06/25/breaking-news-second-life-steals-deals-and-freebies-edition-the-free-kalhene-ariadna-mesh-body-has-been-removed-from-the-sl-marketplace/

[Kira Skydancer]

22 minutes ago, Vanity Fair said:

Marianne, the Kalhene Ariadna free mesh body has just been removed from the SL Marketplace due to a DMCA complaint filed with Linden Lab. More details here:

https://ryanschultz.com/2020/06/25/breaking-news-second-life-steals-deals-and-freebies-edition-the-free-kalhene-ariadna-mesh-body-has-been-removed-from-the-sl-marketplace/

Interesting. I literally bought one from the market place day before yesterday. Just in time, I guess. I've already spent a lot of time making her my own (learning mesh avatars in the process, a bit) I hope they don't poof her, I went clothes shopping yesterday...

[Indigobunting Littlepaws]

Hi, I've come back too recently and while I wouldn't consider myself an expert when I left, I had a good idea of how things ran. I am now so confused about avatars, skins, mesh, etc. I tried a couple of demo clothes, with alphas, and none of them fit. They all were either really large in the chest and tush, or my belly stuck through the clothes/overhang the clothes. Are avatars not as personalizable as they were about 7-8 years ago? I don't want an off the shelf head and body shape that is predetermined. I'd like to be able to modify the shape and get it looking the way I want. Is that still possible?

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 6/25/2020 at 7:46 AM, Vanity Fair said:

Marianne, the Kalhene Ariadna free mesh body has just been removed from the SL Marketplace due to a DMCA complaint filed with Linden Lab. More details here:

https://ryanschultz.com/2020/06/25/breaking-news-second-life-steals-deals-and-freebies-edition-the-free-kalhene-ariadna-mesh-body-has-been-removed-from-the-sl-marketplace/

That article attempts to stir up drama against another mesh body.

One can figure out if that body is the source very easily - wear them on 2 different people, and stand side by side in wireframe mode. If it looks the same - theft. If not, not.

No need for random blog drama.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

12 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

That article attempts to stir up drama against another mesh body.

One can figure out if that body is the source very easily - wear them on 2 different people, and stand side by side in wireframe mode. If it looks the same - theft. If not, not.

No need for random blog drama.

 

Not necessarily.

Someone could make a body shape that's effectively identical to another body while using different geometry (polygons, etc.) Basically, it's the same thing as making a skin-tight piece of clothing using a developer's kit.

The trick is getting clothing made for the previous body to work with the new body. The bodies would need to have effectively identical "skin weights." The easiest way to do this is just to copy the weights.

If skin weights are considered a creative expression that would be a copyright violation.

However, if they're considered a technique or method, they're not copyrightable. Techniques and methods can only be protected by patents, which are much harder to get and need to be substantially different from anything that came before.

This can be argued both ways and the only way it can be settled definitively is with a court decision.