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HAPPY JUNETEENTH & THE PROGRESS OF BLM


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Oh dear... have we made the forum racists, bigots, and misogynists uncomfortable? They don’t like people being intolerant of their beliefs? They don’t like the bickering that happens when they make statements that are dismissive or insulting to POC (and other decent human beings) and people push back?

Welcome to 2020, the year when it’s no longer enough to simply not be a racist. Moving forward we must be anti-racist as well, and that means being utterly intolerant of racists, pushing back when we see them, hear them, or read their words, speaking up to them, speaking out about them, and fighting them if necessary.

I won’t be losing any sleep over upsetting the racists. 

shrugs

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And we are done.  Ladies and Gentlemen this is now the 3rd thread started on this issue.  While we appreciate that everyone has very passionate opinions, the golden rule is probably best followed

This is a text that a friend forwarded to me two weeks ago. And a lot more seems to have happened since then.. The protests in America and across the world have upset and scared a lot of people.

Removing a statue from public display, particularly if it's simply being moved from one place to another, is not the same as erasing every memory of that statue's subject from history. I doubt th

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1 hour ago, Ashlyn Voir said:

I’m sure a lot of white people would agree with the Tom in the video, tbh.

No idea who that particular Tom is, but he’s full of 💩💩💩. Why does he think people can only think about, or care about, or tackle one single issue at a time?

And the things he’s talking about are part of one large issue - systemic racism in the US that started the day Columbus stepped off his boat. Right now, the issue under that big umbrella that is getting attention is police brutality. That is only one branch of a giant tree whose roots are deeply embedded in US soil.

We’re trimming all the branches, but this particular branch is sprouting new branches so we have to saw it off first.

Uncle Tom can bite me.

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3 hours ago, LyricalBookworm said:

I said I was hoping this thread had a more positive outcome since Luna was asking news from forum members of progress of BLM that we witnessed. That had the potential of being an encouraging topic. As far as I can see in her original post, she wasn't asking for others to call names or bicker. It was derailed though from both sides of the discussion.

I'm not uncomfortable about discussing racism. I didn't say that anywhere in my post so please don't assume what isn't there. I just don't see how name calling, throwing insults back and forth and being vicious with one another is going to solve anything. That is just my perspective though. If that is how you wish to live your life, have at it.

 

I think it’s a positive that the discussions are continuing, even tho the trolls & baiters keep rearing up.  It’s important to keep the conversation going, even when it gets ugly, to not be silenced when someone else would heckle & leer in hopes of intimidating others goes unchecked.  

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9 hours ago, Dano Seale said:

We're all in a war to change the thinking of humans as a whole....it's a war that can never be won unfortunately IMO!

i disagree

the thought that things will never change is because our own lifetimes are so short relative to the total time of humanity. When we only see the future in terms of our own life experiences then is not surprising that we might feel that things will never change

is not true tho. If it were true then there would have been no emancipation of any kind

we would also be raiding, killing and enslaving the neigbours same as we did back in the days of the hunter gatherers

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9 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

John McWhorter discussing how the modern anti-racist movement is religious in nature and is in fact hurting the very people it is supposed to be helping.

i watched the linked vid twice

John McWhorter's only provided two facts about the police and black men. One, that more black men are killed by other black men than by police officers. And two, that black men are disproportionately killed by police officers than are white men

Mr McWhorter's contends that anti-racism is a religion and then argues to try and support this contention

his argument is that because people get more upset by black men being killed by the police than they get upset over black men killing each other; Then the difference in upset makes anti-racism charges leveled at the police a religion

he blithely ignores the facts he himself presents. And then accuses people of not caring as much for black men killed by other black men. Tell that one Mr McWhorter to the families and the communities that those dead black men come from

Mr McWhorter arguments are sophistry and not very good sophistry either

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12 hours ago, Ashlyn Voir said:

I’d just like to point out that black people don’t kill a disproportionately large number of blacks than whites do on other whites. It’s about the same, actually. So, that whole black on black crime argument is usually to derail from actual racism. It’s a good straw man, but a weak one.

 

“According to the FBI’s uniform crime-reporting data for 2016, 90.1 percent of black victims of homicide were killed by other blacks, while 83.5 percent of whites were killed by other whites. While no life is inconsequential, the statistical evidence shows that—just as for blacks when it comes to black-on-black crime—whites are mostly victimized by other whites, with the vast majority of white murders committed by whites. This is because most victims of crime personally know their assailants. And while this is a truth across racial boundaries, no one ever talks about “white-on-white crime.”Furthermore, the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ arrest data analysis toolshows that less than 1 percent of blacks overall (about 2 percent of black men) commit a violent crime in any given year. This means, factoring in interracial violent offenses, 99 percent of black men do not commit black-on-black crime.” 

 

https://www.theroot.com/why-we-never-talk-about-black-on-black-crime-an-answer-1819092337

I can't remember where I read this, but it seems that, at least in the US, if you meet a violent end at the hands of a stranger, that stranger is far more likely be a white man driving an automobile , probably drunk, high or asleep at the wheel, than from anyone else.

But for some reason many people don't worry half so much about lethal white drivers as they do about much less severe threats.

 

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19 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

at least in the US, if you meet a violent end at the hands of a stranger, that stranger is far more likely be a white man driving an automobile , probably drunk, high or asleep at the wheel, than from anyone else.

In some areas of the country this can also be a factor:

 

jesus take the wheel.gif

jesus take the wheel 2.gif

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Check this guy out..I guess this is who Muhamid ali's momma named him after..

This guy is pretty bad ass.. hehehe

Cassious Clay

 

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41 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

I can't remember where I read this, but it seems that, at least in the US, if you meet a violent end at the hands of a stranger, that stranger is far more likely be a white man driving an automobile , probably drunk, high or asleep at the wheel, than from anyone else.

But for some reason many people don't worry half so much about lethal white drivers as they do about much less severe threats.

 

I blame Nascar..hehehehe

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I really like this researcher who delves into the "hidden biases of good people" obtained via socialization.... how our unconscious mind affects our behavior...she calls these biases "mind bugs".

 

Edited by Luna Bliss
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13 hours ago, Dano Seale said:

We're all in a war to change the thinking of humans as a whole....it's a war that can never be won unfortunately IMO!  You do you Luna, but if you want to see why "racism" will always be around, just ask and I'll show you why. 

I don’t want to come across as zeroing in on you (lest my two trolls come along to heckle me) but you simply can not just shrug & say that’s just the way it is.  
It will take a long time & no not in our generation will hate be purged, but it can happen with empathy for others, understanding the past, and radical change across the board in prosecuting hate crimes, and enforcing equality in education, employment & public programs.

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16 hours ago, Dano Seale said:

I don't delve deep into the underlying causes or reasons for all that happens, I just call things as I see them.

Yes, and that's the problem.     You see something happening, but if you don't look at the underlying causes or reasons, then when you call things as you see them, you're simply describing what you think you see in particular cases, and that doesn't really help understand or fix any problems.

If you look at the figures, black men are far more likely to die while interacting with the police in the US, or as a result of that interaction, than are white men.   Similarly, black men are far more likely to be convicted of felony crimes, and to be incarcerated,  than are white men.     There's no argument about that -- that's the figures.    All these interactions are going to be different, and have their own reasons, and all prison inmates are there for particular reasons unique to them, but, for whatever reason, these disparities exist.

The arguments start when you start to ask why these disparities exist -- would you say that's a problem with black men and the way they behave, or would you say it's a problem with US law enforcement and the criminal justice system as a whole, and they way they treat black people differently from the way they treat white people?   

It's when you start asking that kind of question that issues of systemic racism become important.  

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Dano, it doesn't take a lot of book learnin' to know that what we did to the Native population of this country was far, far worse than anything they did to the White person. We stole all their land, wrecked their culture, and nearly decimated them for god's sake. And for you to post 2 depictions of Native warriors as "savages", slaughtering the Whites, so you can claim that Whites had it bad too??  And to post them to Selene, a Native?  You use your lack of book learnin' and feign ignorance, as a cover to get away with insults and demonstrate your lack of sympathy toward disadvantaged groups.  You need to stop.

One thing that a lot don't know is, They shipped out more natives into slavery out of the country than they had shipped in..

The reason They didn't keep natives as slaves and shipped them out was because they knew they had to put them into a place they didn't know far away, or they would always be trying to escape or fight to get back..This is why slaves were shipped in and natives shipped out..

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6 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

One thing that a lot don't know is, They shipped out more natives into slavery out of the country than they had shipped in..

The reason They didn't keep natives as slaves and shipped them out was because they knew they had to put them into a place they didn't know far away, or they would always be trying to escape or fight to get back..This is why slaves were shipped in and natives shipped out..

I read that in most cases the powers that be simply couldn't force Natives be slaves, like on plantations and the like. I've wondered why that was, or what actually happened in the instances where this was attempted.

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I read that in most cases the powers that be simply couldn't force Natives be slaves, like on plantations and the like. I've wondered why that was, or what actually happened in the instances where this was attempted.

A lot had to do with because they were still  in their familiar land..

The reason they used Africans was because they would be disorientated and much easier  to train when you are lost and scared and in unfamiliar places.. they knew they were a long way away because of the long ride in ships alone..let alone wouldn't know which direction to go to get back to their home..

In a familiar land you know these things and you always have hope.

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14 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

One thing that a lot don't know is, They shipped out more natives into slavery out of the country than they had shipped in..

The reason They didn't keep natives as slaves and shipped them out was because they knew they had to put them into a place they didn't know far away, or they would always be trying to escape or fight to get back..This is why slaves were shipped in and natives shipped 

 

8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I read that in most cases the powers that be simply couldn't force Natives be slaves, like on plantations and the like. I've wondered why that was, or what actually happened in the instances where this was attempted.

Some pledged to fight to the death to remain free, while noncombatants were lied to & then shipped off & sold anyways.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/565410514/an-american-secret-the-untold-story-of-native-american-enslavement

https://www.brown.edu/news/2017-02-15/enslavement

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12 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

 

Some pledged to fight to the death to remain free, while noncombatants were lied to & then shipped off & sold anyways.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/20/565410514/an-american-secret-the-untold-story-of-native-american-enslavement

https://www.brown.edu/news/2017-02-15/enslavement

They always lied though..

Even when the Chiricahua finally surrendered, it was with negotiations that they would only be imprisoned for two years.. it ended up being like 42 years.

It's called the 42 year lie.

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Wall o' text incoming; I couldn't find a way to link.  It was a small thing, but it showed the innate kindliness of people and a willingness to help.  Not perfect, of course not, but something rare in those times; seeing all people as equally worthy and equally human.

No Sugar For Me - why many Cornish people refused to take sugar in their tea!

by the late Reverend Julyan Drew* with minor updates (late Minister of the Newlyn Trinity Methodist Chapel)

The Reverend Julyan Drew explains why a protest campaign more than 200 years ago means that many people in Cornwall refuse to take sugar in their tea.

1835 saw the final abolition of the slavery in the last part of the then British Empire - Mauritius.

One of the key figures in the abolitionist movement was John Wesley, who was one of the founders of Methodism.

The Methodist Church was and still is very strong in Cornwall.

It was almost the established church here in Cornwall.

Most of us who were reared here, were taught not to have sugar in our tea because Mr Wesley said that we shouldn't as a protest against the slave trade.

Many slaves were used in sugar production and Mr Wesley thought that a boycott of sugar by devout Methodists would be a good way of showing disapproval of a trade which he despised.

It's thought that in those days most people would normally have taken sugar in their tea so that refusing it was more unusual than it might be today.

It was, perhaps, one of the earliest examples of people power.

Of course, we Methodists had a particularly Cornish way of being involved in that boycott, we said that there was an exception when we had a pasty.

Wesley became interested in slavery when he went to, what was then the British colony of Georgia in America, in 1736.

There he saw slavery around him and saw the conditions in which the slaves lived and worked, and how they were treated.

On the long sea voyage back to England he taught a young black man how to read and write. It's thought that the young man was probably a slave.

It was around 40 years after his trip to Georgia that the abolitionist movement was starting to take off. Wesley's own experience of slavery in Georgia was still on his mind.

So he set about writing his pamphlet called 'Thoughts upon slavery'.

It contained a very careful and considered approach to the issue.

He set out, for everybody to read, the conditions in which the slaves were kept and worked.

Here is an excerpt from 'Thoughts Upon Slavery' by John Wesley

"When the vessels arrive at their destined port, the Ne****es are again exposed naked to the eyes of all that flock together, and the examination of their purchasers. Then they are separated to the plantations of their several masters, to see each other no more. Here you may see mothers hanging over their daughters, bedewing their naked breasts with tears, and daughters clinging to their parents, till the whipper soon obliges them to part.
And what can be more wretched than the condition they then enter upon? Banished from their country, from their friends and relations for ever, from every comfort of life, they are reduced to a state scarce anyway preferable to that of beasts of burden.

The time they work in the West Indies, is from day-break to noon, and from two o'clock till dark; during which time, they are attended by overseers, who, if they think them dilatory, or think anything not so well done as it should be, whip them most unmercifully, so that you may see their bodies long after wealed and scarred usually from the shoulders to the waist. Did the Creator intend that the noblest creatures in the visible world should live such a life as this?"

Although it was a carefully set out piece of work, the pamphlet was not without emotion. It was very clear that Wesley considered the slave trade utterly immoral and inhuman, and not something that anyone who called himself a man could be involved in.

Another excerpt from 'Thoughts Upon Slavery' by John Wesley

"Are you a man? Then you should have an human heart. But have you indeed? What is your heart made of? Is there no such principle as Compassion there? Do you never feel another's pain? Have you no Sympathy? No sense of human woe? No pity for the miserable? When you saw the flowing eyes, the heaving breasts, or the bleeding sides and tortured limbs of your fellow-creatures, was you a stone, or a brute? Did you look upon them with the eyes of a tiger? When you squeezed the agonizing creatures down in the ship, or when you threw their poor mangled remains into the sea, had you no relenting? Did not one tear drop from your eye, one sigh escape from your breast? Do you feel no relenting now? If you do not, you must go on, till the measure of your iniquities is full. Then will the Great GOD deal with You, as you have dealt with them, and require all their blood at your hands."

Wesley made his views on slavery known in his sermons and speeches as well as in writing. He wasn’t afraid to carry his message to the heart of the slave trade in ports like Liverpool and Bristol. One on occasion in Bristol, Wesley was preaching to a large gathering which descended into uproar and violence. It’s thought that the slavers sent people into the crowd to disrupt the meeting.

It was more than 200 year ago that early people power helped bring an end to slavery. So it's remarkable that many members of my congregation and other Methodists across Cornwall, and around the country, still refuse sugar in their tea 'on account of Mr Wesley'.

*The Reverend Julyan Drew died of cancer aged 64 years on 25th July, 2019. A bard of the Cornish Gorseth, he had three children and six grandchildren, served as Superintendent of the West Penwith Methodist Circuit and for 20 years, as Minister of various West Cornwall Chapels. Chaplain of the Penlee lifeboat, he also served as Chaplain to the Cornwall Fire and Rescue Service, Penzance town council and had been chair of numerous local bodies, including the YMCA, The Newlyn Fish Industry Forum and the 3 Villages Project.

 

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@Pixieplumb Flanagan  Thank you for that insight.  I was raised attending the United Methodist church in my hometown.  The Methodist church has seen many splits due to social ideologies & efforts to practice what is preached- love one another.  
I would have been affected positively  by having my pastor present this story on the pulpit.  

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2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

One thing that a lot don't know is, They shipped out more natives into slavery out of the country than they had shipped in..

The reason They didn't keep natives as slaves and shipped them out was because they knew they had to put them into a place they didn't know far away, or they would always be trying to escape or fight to get back..This is why slaves were shipped in and natives shipped out..

Colonial enslavement of Native Americans included those who surrendered, too

Quote

Native American slavery “is a piece of the history of slavery that has been glossed over,” Fisher said. “Between 1492 and 1880, between 2 and 5.5 million Native Americans were enslaved in the Americas in addition to 12.5 million African slaves.”

 

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2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Dano, it doesn't take a lot of book learnin' to know that what we did to the Native population of this country was far, far worse than anything they did to the White person. We stole all their land, wrecked their culture, and nearly decimated them for god's sake. And for you to post 2 depictions of Native warriors as "savages", slaughtering the Whites, so you can claim that Whites had it bad too??  And to post them to Selene, a Native?  You use your lack of book learnin' and feign ignorance, as a cover to get away with insults and demonstrate your lack of sympathy toward disadvantaged groups.  You need to stop.

Do you know who the "son of the morning star" was Luna? It's a good book about a very famous "white" 'icon'....who in reality was a total arse! I read it way back in the 80's. Look it up, I think you'd enjoy it. My "book learnin'" is adequate tyvm! I may not have been as intellectually educated or deeply read as Scylla, Seicher, Amina, yourself etc, and I may not be capable of getting my posts across as succinctly as most, but I don't "feign ignorance"! If I don't know anything about a subject, I'll "wing it", avoid it, or just keep my mouth shut. If caught out?...I'll hold my hands up and admit it. Like I said earlier, if subjects are too deep for my limited cerebral capacity, or just too boring, I'll ignore them or voice an opinion. Sometimes I get called out on those opinions, such as when Scylla pulled me up on my lack of "math" skills. In those cases I'll admit I'm out of my depth and stfu! lol.

Anyhow, seeing as you're diverting from the fact that blacks can be just as racist as whites and everyone needs to work together with honesty before anything gets changed....Selene posted a photo of native american bodies after a massacre. In the vein of "it works both ways"...I posted the other side of the coin. I admitted after that it just "triggered" me at the wrong time and was "below the belt" and apologised to Selene. I have a habit of playing "Devil's advocate" on a lot of subjects and that can get taken wrong by many people (such as the post above by velk kerang for example, lol). It gets me in trouble...c'est la vie! 

2 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

I don’t want to come across as zeroing in on you (lest my two trolls come along to heckle me) but you simply can not just shrug & say that’s just the way it is.  
It will take a long time & no not in our generation will hate be purged, but it can happen with empathy for others, understanding the past, and radical change across the board in prosecuting hate crimes, and enforcing equality in education, employment & public programs.

True enough Pixie!

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