getting woke and SL

[Luna Bliss]

14 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I have seen many black people speaking out about BLM.  And just cos some say it doesn't exist doesn't mean it does.  It goes both ways ya know.

I shall wait here for your replies about Uncles Toms, the evils of conservative black people denying their race blah blah blah.

This post is directed to both you and @Arielle Popstar because she's frequently been involved in this particular topic.

It's true there are Blacks who don't believe their 'race' is oppressed in the US -- you've asserted that I must think they are Uncle Toms or traitors to their race. Some may be traitors to their race, denying the struggles of their own 'kind' as they suck up to Whites to gain status or material goods, but I don't think all are. Instead, as conservatives I think many are focusing on the supremacy of the individual as the solution to conflicts in society and so they minimize the importance of the community which surrounds an individual (the focusing of community in conflict solutions being more the liberal perspective). With others, I think they deny the reality of community and its effects on individuals to such a degree they are almost delusional, or at the very least lack Psychological knowledge which applies to how humans develop and what they need to function optimally. 

In any society there is always a tension between the individual and the rest of the community surrounding that individual. Care must be taken to both strengthen and limit the importance of each side so that one side does not impose on the other -- balancing the needs of the individual with the needs of the community creates an optimally functioning society. This is the core conflict between liberals and conservatives -- individual rights vs community rights and how to make sure one side does not infringe on the other. Focusing ONLY on the community for solutions and neglecting the rights of an individual would be a type of Communism where the individual had no agency whatsoever. And focusing ONLY on the individual would be utter selfishness and a total denial of reality since no person exists alone without the influence of the community which surrounds them. So we don't want these extremist positions, but rather a balance between the two.

And so, we have to take each Black individual you've alluded to and dive into their philosophy to understand their reasons for not believing Blacks are oppressed. Just as an extreme liberal can become unbalanced and only see the validity of community in solving conflicts, so the extreme conservative can become unbalanced and only see the supremacy of the individual in all matters. It is really the middle ground, appraising both sides and seeing the value of both, or the harm that comes when only one side is considered, which can provide the correct solution to societal problems.

I admire most the conservative Blacks who believe in individual responsibility and do not want Blacks to feel they are victims or be treated as such, and yet realize there still are some disadvantages in society which make it more difficult for some Blacks to succeed. They can both fight to strengthen the individual Black person along with fighting for society to change prejudiced attitudes toward that Black individual, and believe in removing barriers to success in the community as well as barriers to success within any individual.

So which Black conservative do you like and why? We can discuss them and see if we think they're balanced.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

She was a he and had criminally damaged 5 police cameras.

She is a trans woman, and so is a woman.

[FairreLilette]

45 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Whiteness and Blackness in human beings weren't defined until early slavery times in the US. It was easier for slavers to keep track of their property if "it" had distinguishing characteristics which set "it" apart, and darker-colored skin conveniently achieved this goal. White slaves and indentured servants were freed over a period of time as laws changed while Blacks increasingly were never allowed freedom after working off their time as indentured servants (some Blacks were in this type of contract early on).  Captured slaves were already seen as savage and unlike Westerners, but the slavers further justified enslaving and abusing Blacks by going to great lengths describing their darker-skinned property as inferior, without morals, savage, and in some cases not even truly human.

Do you have a source that says the words "whiteness" and "blackness" were used during Colonial times?  I think they used the archaic word "Negro" and/or to mean those from "Negroland" which is also archaic.  I'm not even sure where this term "white" came from?  Are you sure that was a term used in Colonial times?

However, I don't think one can completely dismiss that all the presidents of The United States have been of Anglo Saxon and/or U.K. descent.  

I think the people of Negro and/or Negroland descent were not seen as useful for the commonwealth and shouldn't be something that is just swept under the rug as governments use whatever labor is cheapest and/or most beneficial to it's existing governmental systems.  

Plus, the Negro was not part of the nepotism that was a large part of the Colonial WASP culture.  

I'm not so convinced this is just skin color related.  Yes, religiously they may have been seen as savage and immoral because, for one thing, to the conquerors, they most certainly did not wear appropriate clothing and were considered inappropriately clothed, among other things but their way of not being "dressed" was most certainly pointed out, even in Christopher Columbus' writings as his writings said "they were naked, as was their custom".   To the early religious people, this would have been considered insane, most likely.  

Edited July 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Luna Bliss]

12 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

White favoritism is part of America, but it leans more towards the wealthy.  None of us can compete with that kind of money no matter what kind of skin color we are.

And, the businessman always looking for the cheapest labor.  The white man actually became too expensive, so more women were being hired than men and even black women or POC women rather a man who is "too expensive" to hire.  It's business crap; we are all expendable in the working class as there is always someone or something to do the job for less than us.  We have no more unions, no more health care for most.   

Yeah, I believe money as much as race is the root of it all.

Looking at previous elections you'll see that Republicans always bring out some racial issue during elections -- it's always the dark people invading and trying to steal something from us Whites, painting darker-skinned people as bad in the process. During Reagan's campaign it was the 'welfare queen', during Bush it was the dog-whistle politics and claiming to be tough on crime with the Black man, Willie Horton, in 2018 it was the supposed caravan of immigrants ready to attack us on our southern border.  'Us & Them politics' used to divide us so the wealthy can get us fighting each other while they run off with most of the money. So you can't really divide the racial issues from the wealth and class ones, as POC are used as pawns within both.

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Do you have a source that says the words "whiteness" and "blackness" were used during Colonial times?  I think they used the archaic word "Negro" and/or to mean those from "Negroland" which is also archaic.  I'm not even sure where this term "white" came from?  Are you sure that was a term used in Colonial times?

However, I don't think one can completely dismiss that all the presidents of The United States have been of Anglo Saxon and/or U.K. descent.  

I think the people of Negro and/or Negroland descent were not seen as useful for the commonwealth and shouldn't be something that is just swept under the rug as governments use whatever labor is cheapest and/or most beneficial to it's existing governmental systems.  

Plus, the Negro was not part of the nepotism that was a large part of the WASP culture.  

I'm not so convinced this is just skin color related.

I believe this definition of white vs black and when it came into being was described in a documentary I posted to you long ago.  It's not so much the words though that are important, it's how words were used to designate a population for their financial gain. The important point was that there was no definition in the world of 'whiteness' until then, set against darker skin tones.

It was not skin color per se that was the issue...it's the meaning the early slavers gave to skin color....it was convenient for them to have an easily identifiable population that was different from themselves...easier to keep track of.

This is all documented in early laws of that time.

[FairreLilette]

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

it's how words were used to designate a population for their financial gain. The important point was that there was no definition in the world of 'whiteness' until then, set against darker skin tones.

Yes, in the archaic word "Negroland" this was used to describe the natives as well.  It was a term used to describe all those of darker skin tones as though they came from "somewhere else".  

The whites were the ones with the big money that came onto this land.

So, yes, we cannot deny it's been about money too.  

I hope we do get past this Anglo Saxon "thing" though as it has been a source of discrimination and is archaic and not for the modern world.  People have changed.  

Edited July 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Luna Bliss]

22 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, in the archaic word "Negroland" this was used to describe the natives as well.  It was a term used to describe all those of darker skin tones as though they came from "somewhere else".  

The whites were the ones with the big money that came onto this land.

So, yes, we cannot deny it's been about money too.  

I hope we do get past this Anglo Saxon "thing" though as it has been a source of discrimination and is archaic and not for the modern world.  People have changed. 

Many weren't wealthy when they first arrived. But through stealing the Native's land and using free labor via slavery to produce goods many of them became wealthy. So slavery was always about money, just like keeping a huge amount of Black men in prison and feeding the prison industrial complex is about money, and making sure groups of low-wage earners at the bottom levels of society keep funneling money to the wealthiest is a system to benefit the wealthy few at the top.   They want to keep POC and Whites fighting each other so they can keep their privileged position, hence all this race-baiting through the years, only increasing with Trump.

It is very weird that such a strange setup long ago still affects Blacks so negatively. That's why I say the Blacks have been the latrine of America.

Part of their tactics early on were designed to separate the poorer Whites from the Blacks. They gave small favors to the Whites and made them believe the Blacks were the source of so many of their troubles. And it continues.

You should research the early years of the colonies. It was very enlightening for me. Definitely nothing I learned in school. Some is online, and I have this book Stamped From The Beginning I've yet to finish.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It is very weird that such a strange setup long ago still affects Blacks so negatively. That's why I say the Blacks have been the latrine of America.

Yeah, I know...that's why I've been wondering if there was more to it.  

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Many weren't wealthy when they first arrived. But through stealing the Native's land and using free labor via slavery to produce goods many of them became wealthy. So slavery was always about money

I didn't know that.  I thought they came over here with money.  

 

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

just like keeping a huge amount of Black men in prison and feeding the prison industrial complex is about money

Yep.  This ^^^^^^^^ needs to change.  

But, like I wrote in another post, men were pushed aside for quite some time and women were the most hired because it was thought a woman could be paid less of a salary.

It's just sad.  Just sad, all of it.  

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

It's just sad.  Just sad, all of it.

It is. All we can do is fight power abuses when we see them. Learn, educate, vote, join groups fighting for change, phone our representatives both locally and nationally and make our voices heard. Quite a few changes have actually happened by flooding them with our voices.

We are never powerless!

Edited July 30, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

This post is directed to both you and @Arielle Popstar because she's frequently been involved in this particular topic.

I admire most the conservative Blacks who believe in individual responsibility and do not want Blacks to feel they are victims or be treated as such, and yet realize there still are some disadvantages in society which make it more difficult for some Blacks to succeed. They can both fight to strengthen the individual Black person along with fighting for society to change prejudiced attitudes toward that Black individual, and believe in removing barriers to success in the community as well as barriers to success within any individual.

 

Self actualization is what I saw in each of the Black Americans that were anti BLM, in that they realized that BLM as well as many liberals are promoting an unhealthy dependency on the state and its leaders. They reject the idea that Blacks as a whole are subject to the systemic racism constantly being waved in their faces as they understand that believing so makes them a victim and inferior in an underhanded way. They collectively seem to reject that they need the coddling and condescending overtures put out by certain parties looking for their vote through white savior policies.

Rather than it distancing them from the Black community, they become a much greater part of it, their lives setting an example for those who start to question the white lies fed to them since they were toddlers. They are the a-wokened ones, having not just recognized that there is discrimination but worked through it so it no longer affects their individual destinies, regardless of whether white people wake up and smell the coffee.

[Jordyn McGregor]

I'm tapping out.  I'm done trying to express my thoughts and opinions only to be shouted down and told I'm "torturing" everyone because I don't agree with the incredibly vocal few.

So I shall leave you (the collective "you" who know who they are) to your virtuous circle jerk of self righteousness, "wokeness" and virtual signalling, and just remind you that having a differing opinion does NOT make one a fascist and does NOT make one wrong.

[Akane Nacht]

57 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

having a differing opinion does NOT make one a fascist and does NOT make one wrong.

Some people here are simply repeating what they see in the news. I learned long ago to take what the press says with a big dollop of salt. 

'The superior man understands what is right; the inferior man understands what will sell.' ~ Confucius

[Pussycat Catnap]

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/30/florida-racial-profiling-luis-santos/

Quote

‘You’re not going anywhere’: Florida man charged after detaining Black teen biking to basketball practice

The sky was still dark on June 9 when a man slowed his car next to a Black teenage boy, wearing khakis and a T-shirt, who was biking to an early-morning basketball practice in Seffner, Fla.

Luis Orlando Santos Santiago, 54, stopped the boy and began interrogating him about where he lived, demanding the child tell him his home address. Then, the man declared: “You’re not going anywhere. You’re being detained."

The man phoned 911 and told a dispatcher he was an “off-duty officer” and had detained the boy after catching him stealing on video. He claimed he had seen the boy breaking into cars. Then, he alleged the boy had stolen the bike he was riding, and refused to let the teenager leave.

None of the allegations were true, police said. The boy had not committed any crimes. The man wasn’t an officer, and he had no videos to back up his allegations. In fact, the Hillsborough State Attorney’s Office said there hadn’t been a single crime reported this year in the Lakeshore Ranch neighborhood, which describes itself as a “charming and quiet community” of 264 single-family homes with access to a lakefront, a boardwalk and several local parks.

Video of the confrontation and audio from the 911 call were released by the state attorney and reported by WFLA.

After investigating the incident, deputies returned to arrest Santos on Saturday. The state attorney charged him with false imprisonment for illegally detaining the teenager.

The episode echoed many frightening, and sometimes violent, confrontations between Black children and adults who view them as suspicious or dangerous.

The scene in Seffner mirrored many of the circumstances that led to the fatal 2012 shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, also a Black teenager in Florida, who was shot and killed after George Zimmerman called 911 to report him as suspicious and then followed and confronted Martin. In February, 25-year-old Ahmaud Arbery was shot and killed in Georgia by a White father and son who believed he looked like a suspect from recent break-ins and stopped him while the young Black man was jogging in his own neighborhood.

Black teenagers have also been stopped by people for walking through gated communities where they live, spat on for participating in Black Lives Matter protests, and smacked in the face with a bike lock for playing loud music.

 

[Luna Bliss]

17 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Self actualization is what I saw in each of the Black Americans that were anti BLM, in that they realized that BLM as well as many liberals are promoting an unhealthy dependency on the state and its leaders. They reject the idea that Blacks as a whole are subject to the systemic racism constantly being waved in their faces as they understand that believing so makes them a victim and inferior in an underhanded way. They collectively seem to reject that they need the coddling and condescending overtures put out by certain parties looking for their vote through white savior policies.

Rather than it distancing them from the Black community, they become a much greater part of it, their lives setting an example for those who start to question the white lies fed to them since they were toddlers. They are the a-wokened ones, having not just recognized that there is discrimination but worked through it so it no longer affects their individual destinies, regardless of whether white people wake up and smell the coffee.

Isn't it possible to focus on the strength and self-actualization of the individual AND any barriers in society which might impede their self-determination at the same time? Does the solution have to be polarized with black & white thinking so that the solution is only one way or the other without any middle compromise? As I said before, these two dynamics need to be in balance.

The dynamics I've described for a healthy society are fundamental principles of humans as they exist today -- there's the individual AND there's the forces which surround the individual. Conservatism tends to focus more on individual factors while liberalism tends to focus more on the forces which surround that individual (the community). We need to consider both forces when seeking solutions.
What you have cited (apparently statements by certain conservative Blacks mixed with your interpretation of  polarized politics) is extremely politicized and unbalanced --  focusing on the individual and denying the impact society has on that individual. This is polarized politics, and the film you cited on another thread was created to get people to vote Republican.

We have to dive underneath the politics of the day to evaluate problems and find solutions. The political parties just want our votes, and they will pander to whatever brings them those votes. Democrats before the Civil Rights were against Blacks, now they say they're for Blacks. Republicans in earlier years considered Black issues to a greater degree, but developed the Southern Strategy so as to win White votes in the South via supporting White racism.

Let's say my child was a Black teenager and we lived in one of the poorer neighborhoods. I could emphasize the individual solution of taking responsibility for one's life and not blaming others when one doesn't succeed, and I could make him clean up his room and not cuss like a banshee. But I could AT THE SAME TIME focus on community solutions -- I could petition the school board to make sure the impoverished neighborhood we live in has the items needed to teach well, and I could voice my concerns in public venues if I saw Black kids targeted unfairly and advocate for police training, and I could push for more police accountability so that they don't use excessive force when apprehending possible criminals.

Bringing these horrific police abuses to light and pushing for changes does not mean we consider Blacks as victims, denying any personal responsibility Blacks need to manifest!?!  Only somebody who thinks in black & white terms pushes it all the way to one side and perceives the issue in this polarized manner. 

Can we do what I suggested -- take one Black person at a time (like the Shelby Steele Black conservative you posted some months ago) -- and evaluate which statements they make tend to be more conservative or liberal?  Because although I agree some of the dynamics you cited can be true in certain situations and for certain individuals, overall it seems like a conspiracy theory to me, making statements that are much too broad and sometimes strange (for example, white lies being fed to them, white savior policies, unhealthy dependency on the state, being the true a-wokened ones).

Edited July 31, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

I wonder how many of these solutions designed to change abusive policing have been put in place or are being considered, and where...

https://www.vox.com/2020/6/1/21277013/police-reform-policies-systemic-racism-george-floyd

Edited July 31, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Pussycat Catnap]

 

[Gage Wirefly]

 

[Janet Voxel]

 

[Gage Wirefly]

 

[Lyssa Greymoon]

Looks like my fears that the lulz would disappear when Miss slavers and Nazis weren't villains bailed were unfounded.

[Janet Voxel]

14 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Looks like my fears that the lulz would disappear when Miss slavers and Nazis weren't villains bailed were unfounded.

They'll be back...

[Luna Bliss]

42 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Looks like my fears that the lulz would disappear when Miss slavers and Nazis weren't villains bailed were unfounded.

Shame on you for not taking the White perspective -- these slavers and Nazis were just "men of their time".  Besides, Whites helped on the underground railroad too so it's all good   🥵

Yes...I'll say it again...hearing such stupidity again and again is torture.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

43 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

 

Even Black conservatives don't like her...you need to dig a little deeper for your amazing contributions to the thread:

https://newsone.com/3940911/black-conservatives-denounce-candace-owens-ahmaud-arbery-comments/

[Gage Wirefly]

5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

🥵

Yes...I'll say it again...hearing such stupidity again and again is torture.

Tell me about it! 😐