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4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Pain must be acknowledged by self and others before it can be transcended.  This is just Psychology 101 -- it's called "the stages of grief". Instead, here in America, we've either denied that POC have this pain because we don't want to face the fact that we've harmed them, or if we do manage to admit to our culpability we try to shut them down during the anger phase of dealing with grief because the anger frightens us.

How dare you come in here and suggest how Blacks should be managing their pain according to your timetable lest they have some sort of "doomsday" attitude, or imply that anger has "owned" them because you determine they are not making positive changes. 

Psychology 201 recognizes that some get stuck at one of the stages and may need a gentle nudge to the next level. Someone with some empathy who has traveled the same path is probably the best suited to do so. I felt Arkane being a POC was entirely appropriate in doing so.

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Was just thinking back to earlier posts about the criminal justice system and the 13th Amendment having the slavery exception...

While reading up on Songhai - the great West African kingdom that was conquered in a series of Arab invasions and had so many of it's people shipped away into slavery...

Songhai of course... did have it's own form of slavery - the same form that back then existed all over the world; war captives and indentured servitude...

So I'm not writing to justify Songhai...

 

But about something I noticed in it's criminal justice system.

People were, for many crimes, punished under Sharia law - which dictates loss of property as your punishment for most things, imprisonment for a few things.

 

Imagine that kind of punishment system. Who is at risk most when they commit crime? The wealthy... it is a system that sees the perpetrator of injustice is most likely those with wealth and power who have become corrupt.

Now look at imprisonment systems - they put the poor at great risk.

What does it means to a person who has nothing but a single pair of pants to their name, if for theft they lose those pants?

What does it mean to a person who owns a 100-acre estate with 200 cattle and a marketplace if for theft they lose all of that?

 

- Imprisonment is a criminal justice system designed to re-enforce classism / racism.

- What now still exists in our Civil law, injunctions banning conduct or fines for bad conduct - this is a criminal justice system designed to prevent corruption and abuse by the powerful...

 

We've got our whole system backwards here, and we have in history, and even in our Civil Law - a system that could replace mass incarceration. Saving prison only for the extremes.

But this won't happen, because modern societies are too often built upon a belief that it is the underclass that is a threat, not the overseer class. We spend all our effort punishing the fieldhand, and ignore the person holding the whip...

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

There is so much wrong with this statement, that I had to quote it for posterity. (In case the poster edits / deletes it.)

I don't do things like that. I watched at least one person get shouted down and stop posting in this thread because of it.

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7 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:
12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Pain must be acknowledged by self and others before it can be transcended.  This is just Psychology 101 -- it's called "the stages of grief". Instead, here in America, we've either denied that POC have this pain because we don't want to face the fact that we've harmed them, or if we do manage to admit to our culpability we try to shut them down during the anger phase of dealing with grief because the anger frightens us.

How dare you come in here and suggest how Blacks should be managing their pain according to your timetable lest they have some sort of "doomsday" attitude, or imply that anger has "owned" them because you determine they are not making positive changes. 

Psychology 201 recognizes that some get stuck at one of the stages and may need a gentle nudge to the next level. Someone with some empathy who has traveled the same path is probably the best suited to do so. I felt Arkane being a POC was entirely appropriate in doing so.

Almost everyone in Singapore has darker skin -- most are of Chinese, Malaysian, & Indian descent -- there's very little oppression there on account of skin color. So, no -- Arkane has no special empathy on account of having darker skin -- she has not been scapegoated and traumatized the way Blacks in the US have. Each country is unique in how oppression plays out among the population, and believe me the US is unique, and in a very bad way.

Regarding nudging another to move emotionally from one stage to another, the person doing the nudging needs to be able to see the other side clearly before any attempt should be made, and Arkane has seldom demonstrated she understands, or even wants to understand, the specifics of racial issues in America.

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Do you know what I liked about Portland? The used book stores. I loved getting used books because why pay full price for a book? Portland also has no sales tax. The city also has a height restriction on buildings so you can always see the sky. Too bad.

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14 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

If a people are rioting... then good leader need to look very hard at what led them to that point, and address something 3 steps back before it, not respond to the riot itself with force... But such leaders are rare...

You know how it goes though..

 

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Almost everyone in Singapore has darker skin -- most are of Chinese, Malaysian, & Indian descent -- there's very little oppression there on account of skin color. So, no -- Arkane has no special empathy on account of having darker skin -- she has not been scapegoated and traumatized the way Blacks in the US have. Each country is unique in how oppression plays out among the population, and believe me the US is unique, and in a very bad way.

Regarding nudging another to move emotionally from one stage to another, the person doing the nudging needs to be able to see the other side clearly before any attempt should be made, and Arkane has seldom demonstrated she understands, or even wants to understand, the specifics of racial issues in America.

The OP did not mention the discussion was only for American racism or wokeness. Though I had been pooh poohing the idea of white privilege up to now I have to admit that the the more of your postings I read on this topic, the more I am having to admit it is a thing for you, being that you as a white person, feel you have the privilege to dictate as to which minorities and from where are allowed to have an opinion or share their own thoughts on the topic.

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5 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:
9 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Almost everyone in Singapore has darker skin -- most are of Chinese, Malaysian, & Indian descent -- there's very little oppression there on account of skin color. So, no -- Arkane has no special empathy on account of having darker skin -- she has not been scapegoated and traumatized the way Blacks in the US have. Each country is unique in how oppression plays out among the population, and believe me the US is unique, and in a very bad way.

Regarding nudging another to move emotionally from one stage to another, the person doing the nudging needs to be able to see the other side clearly before any attempt should be made, and Arkane has seldom demonstrated she understands, or even wants to understand, the specifics of racial issues in America.

The OP did not mention the discussion was only for American racism or wokeness. Though I had been pooh poohing the idea of white privilege up to now I have to admit that the the more of your postings I read on this topic, the more I am having to admit it is a thing for you, being that you as a white person, feel you have the privilege to dictate as to which minorities and from where are allowed to have an opinion or share their own thoughts on the topic.

Honestly, you have twisted this in the most utterly ridiculous way I don't know where to begin. I've never said or implied people from other countries should not post their perceptions here -- in fact, I welcome their voice on this thread and have reasonably debated many of them.

This is very different from the point you were making however, which I countered. You said Akane would have empathy and should be able to tell POC when to change their emotional state away from anger because her darker skin gives her empathy, that she has "traveled the same path".  However if you live in a country where darker skin does not matter because everybody has dark skin, and you live in a country which never had the insane levels and specific types of racism the US has experienced due to that skin color, then one's skin color simply could not be a source of empathy.

You said: "Psychology 201 recognizes that some get stuck at one of the stages and may need a gentle nudge to the next level. Someone with some empathy who has traveled the same path is probably the best suited to do so. I felt Arkane being a POC was entirely appropriate in doing so."

 

Edited by Luna Bliss
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5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Honestly, you have twisted this in the most utterly ridiculous way I don't know where to begin. I've never said or implied people from other countries should not post their perceptions here -- in fact, I welcome their voice on this thread and have reasonably debated many of them.

This is very different from the point you were making however, which I countered. You said Akane would have empathy and should be able to tell POC when to change their emotional state away from anger because her darker skin gives her empathy.  However if you live in a country where darker skin does not matter because everybody has dark skin, and you live in a country which never had the insane levels and specific types of racism the US has experienced due to that skin color, then one's skin color simply could not be a source of empathy.

It's also very similar logic to posting a video of a right wing black person as if to say "See! they're black and they disagree too! So you must be wrong!" 

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14 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

It's also very similar logic to posting a video of a right wing black person as if to say "See! they're black and they disagree too! So you must be wrong!"

The inability many people have in processing very simple concepts, the lack of logical reasoning skills.....I honestly don't know how to express just how disturbing this is.  It's more disturbing than encountering the worst type of griefer because sorting issues out between reasonably decent people then seems hopeless.

It reminds me of when a couple of people equated my suggesting that people become aware of any part they might play in contributing to racial issues (their white privilege) as wanting them to be punished.  What??

Edited by Luna Bliss
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10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The inability many people have in processing very simple concepts, the lack of logical reasoning skills.....

It's not an inability or lack of, it's simply an unwillingness to...and what is really scary the propensity to attempt to "Own" and "Shred" you and your own viewpoint while simultaneously saying "....see, you're not willing to hear both sides of this. What we really need to do is come to an understanding.Why don't you want to just come to an understanding?"

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21 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

The truce was in the 90s. It was organized by Tookie Williams, founder of the Crips, and Nobel Peace prize winner for his anti-gang program that he started in prison to steer kids away from gangs. He was later executed by the state.

There's a second truce right now actually.

 

The areas that had projects and all of that didn't have them before the 50s and 60s. Just as in the Bay Area - project housing was a part of "Urban Renewal" which was about 'city cleanup' which was about moving people of color "out of the way" so that businesses could set up offices and freeways could be put down and so on.

 

JUST LIKE the Keystone XL-pipeline... all the development for some magical reason had to go through neighborhoods of color...

And this was seen as 'upliftment' because social scientists would go into communities of color and see 'people hanging out in front of houses talking, children running around outside, and old ladies just sitting there watching' and think this was blight... rather than realizes... the community is socializing, the kids are playing, and grandma's are taking shifts to watch those kids...

But I believe areas like Watts used to be Irish or Mexican before... well... ALL of California used to be Mexican... but before as in right before the Urban Renewal folks moved everyone around with eminent domain land seizures...

 

 

I missed this post yesterday.  I didn't see it.

I thought I had read the truce had started earlier in 1970's.  But, I read yesterday, the truce is still ongoing.  

I see about the homes.  I was wondering how old they had been there and if they were built during segregation.  So, thanks for the info that they weren't.

There are "turf wars" here in Southern California though.  There are people of different colors and beliefs that don't want to integrate.  They don't want others on their turf and they have wars about it.  Do you know anything about this?   The "turf wars"?    Some of Southern California is multi-ethnic/multi-cultural/multi-religious but other others are segregated and there are "turf wars".   I don't think the people who have turf wars want to be integrated with others.  Some hate each other, frankly.   We cannot force people to be integrated.  I'm not even for forced busing unless the kids and parents and teachers want it because it's a very long bus ride, so I think it's up to the kids and their parents.  

EDIT:  p.s.  I had heard Bob Hope bought most of the property for the Valley and other parts such as Santa Clarita Valley.  I'm not sure exactly though just how much property Bob Hope bought, but he had a great deal of it.  However, The Valley (which is really the San Fernando Valley) and the Santa Clarita Valley are both extremely multi-ethnic and especially the Santa Clarita Valley where I lived for 20 years could be the United Nations.  I call it that sometimes because it is.  And, it's very peaceful.  The Santa Clarita Valley had the 4th lowest crime rate for the whole country; our little United Nations community of just about everybody, 4th lowest crime rate for the whole country.    

Edited by FairreLilette
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Just wanted to post this here, this relates to the mural painting on streets and how others cannot be denied since it's set precedent. You either allow murals for all or for none, because streets are taxpayer funded, as I said...

Snip:

Activists who led an effort to paint a "Black Lives Matter" street painting say that the words were removed from a city street after a conservative resident emailed town officials demanding the right to paint a mural in support of President Trump on the same street.

Local news affiliate KRON 4 reported that Redwood City officials moved last week to quietly remove the yellow-painted words "Black Lives Matter" from Redwood City's Broadway, a stretch of boulevard leading through the city's downtown area.

 

Full story here: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/508492-activists-say-california-city-removed-black-lives-matter-street

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7 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The OP did not mention the discussion was only for American racism or wokeness. Though I had been pooh poohing the idea of white privilege up to now I have to admit that the the more of your postings I read on this topic, the more I am having to admit it is a thing for you, being that you as a white person, feel you have the privilege to dictate as to which minorities and from where are allowed to have an opinion or share their own thoughts on the topic.

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion and express it. Some opinions are, of course, sillier than others. 😉

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4 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Just wanted to post this here, this relates to the mural painting on streets and how others cannot be denied since it's set precedent. You either allow murals for all or for none, because streets are taxpayer funded, as I said...

Snip:

Activists who led an effort to paint a "Black Lives Matter" street painting say that the words were removed from a city street after a conservative resident emailed town officials demanding the right to paint a mural in support of President Trump on the same street.

Local news affiliate KRON 4 reported that Redwood City officials moved last week to quietly remove the yellow-painted words "Black Lives Matter" from Redwood City's Broadway, a stretch of boulevard leading through the city's downtown area.

 

Full story here: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/508492-activists-say-california-city-removed-black-lives-matter-street

100% it does create a bad precedent.

It's also not what people are asking for. Murals don't change anything, legislation does.

People aren't protesting for murals and TV shows removing episodes that could be viewed as problematic. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

100% it does create a bad precedent.

It's also not what people are asking for. Murals don't change anything, legislation does.

People aren't protesting for murals and TV shows removing episodes that could be viewed as problematic. 

 

Understood, just posted it because I touched on street murals further back in the thread. I should have stated that.

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2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

This is very different from the point you were making however, which I countered. You said Akane would have empathy and should be able to tell POC when to change their emotional state away from anger because her darker skin gives her empathy, that she has "traveled the same path".  However if you live in a country where darker skin does not matter because everybody has dark skin, and you live in a country which never had the insane levels and specific types of racism the US has experienced due to that skin color, then one's skin color simply could not be a source of empathy.

It's different from the outside looking in.  I've heard of civil unrest in other countries and thought how sad; I hope it's resolved soon and peace is restored.  It's human nature for most pacifists, as probably most of us here are, to just want peace.  Now, there is civil unrest in America and I think others want to see it resolved peacefully.  We do too!    But, I think Trump's response is fueling more problems.  He's not a good leader.  

Also, Luna, I don't think you understand the "racial" issues of Southern California because you don't live here, and I don't understand the discrimination issues of the state you live in which may be coming from conservative Southern Baptist eschewed views.   

But, just look at this report from the The San Gabriel Tribune, ethnic cleansing of Blacks by Hispanics.  

There are lots of gangs here in Southern California.  The Bloods and The Crips having a decades long truce is a rare truce between two Black gangs.   Do you know how to solve all the problems for Southern California?  Probably, not, it's going to take the people who live here  to do that.   I think the Bloods and the Crips did establish a short-lived truce in the 1970's but now it's been a kind of a truce since the 1990's and these are two Black gangs against each other.   It's like I said before, we have problems in Southern California other's don't understand.  You haven't lived through a nearly 10-year drought for one plus other racial issues which are very alarming here.  

In a murderous quest aimed at “cleansing” their turf of snitches and rival gangsters, members of one of Los Angeles County’s most vicious Latino gangs sometimes killed people just because of their race, an investigation found.

There were even instances in which Florencia 13 leaders ordered killings of black gangsters and then, when the intended victim couldn’t be located, said “Well, shoot any black you see,” Los Angeles County Sheriff Lee Baca said.

“In certain cases some murders were just purely motivated on killing a black person,” Baca said.

Authorities say there were 20 murders among more than 80 shootings documented during the gang’s rampage in the Florence-

Firestone neighborhood, exceptional even in an area where gang violence has been commonplace for decades. They don’t specify the time frame or how many of the killings were racial.

Los Angeles has struggled with gang violence for years, especially during the wars in the late 1980s and early ’90s between the Crips and the Bloods – both black gangs. Latino gangs have gained influence since then as the Hispanic population surged.

 

https://www.sgvtribune.com/2007/12/30/gang-accused-of-racial-cleansing-turf-war/

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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