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27 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Marxists killed intellectuals, doctors, teachers, religious people of any faith. They burned all books, schools, libraries and hospitals. Not ideals but real actual behavior. I know a coworker who still remembers going fishing as a child, to live not for recreation, and saw bodies floating by from mass killing by the communists. 

Marxism is actually just a system of economics.  Others have altered the system as Marx envisioned it and used it for both good and horrific purposes. People propose these changes and alter it to suit what they see as the best way to structure the world economically all the time. Communism is a political system which used tenants of Marxism to try and enact its vision for the world.

* Notions of Communism were around way before Marx came along, although many cite Marx as the father of communism, especially in various right-wing articles that try to scare people away from anything that doesn't let Capitalism reign supreme.

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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35 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Marxists killed intellectuals, doctors, teachers, religious people of any faith. They burned all books, schools, libraries and hospitals. Not ideals but real actual behavior. I know a coworker who still remembers going fishing as a child, to live not for recreation, and saw bodies floating by from mass killing by the communists. 

There have been murders and killings all over this planet, but here we've been examining mostly those that happened in Europe and The Americas.

The 20th Century saw horrible wars and murder and ethnic cleansing but it was going on in Europe for millennia.  

Just look at just one excerpt about Gypsies.  If you read the whole Wiki on the torture and brutality of Gypsies, it makes me want to throw up.  I can only say I hope the next millennia will be different but it won't if we don't stand up and do something about it now.  

And, if you read the below about Gypsies, what about the countless others of types of people and/or religions and/or political or economic theories who've committed atrocious murders and torture.  They all have, Bree.  They all have.  All our ancestors.   Looking to the past won't really help us unless we can change the future.  Another irony, is the Gypsies are the Aryans.  This is what Hitler wanted, a perfected Aryan race.  How was Hilter going to achieve a perfected Aryan race by killing the Aryans?   And, also the Gypsies are Christian.  The Dutch murdered them saying they were heathens.  

GYPSIES

During the latter part of the 17th century, around the Franco-Dutch War, both France and Holland needed thousands of men to fight. Some recruitment took the form of rounding up vagrants and the poor to work the galleys and provide the armies' labour force. With this background, Romanis were targets of both the French and the Dutch.

After the wars, and into the first decade of the 18th century, Romanis were slaughtered with impunity throughout Holland. Romanis, called ‘heiden’ by the Dutch, wandered throughout the rural areas of Europe and became the societal pariahs of the age. Heidenjachten, translated as "heathen hunt" happened throughout Holland in an attempt to eradicate them.[182]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

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2 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

As a White person, I am more likely given appropriate pain medication.  I don't like to be in pain so this is certainly an advantage.

Tests have shown that a high percentage of doctors more often evaluate Blacks as needing less pain medication for the same medical conditions.

Sources for this claim would be appreciated. We can all say anything on the internet .

Found one source...didn't need to go all the way back to historical records:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2016/04/04/do-blacks-feel-less-pain-than-whites-their-doctors-may-think-so/

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@FairreLilette The difference between me bringing up the Marxists and you bringing up the killing of gypsies is that college kids aren't saying, "Gee, killing the gypsies is a great idea!" Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

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45 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Marxists killed

Here we see how W.E.B Du Bois is interpreting Marxism in the early 20th century. Not sure which parts carried through to the way various Black people envision Marxism today. 

But you can see here, it has nothing to do with murdering people:

http://www.webdubois.org/dbMNP.html

Capitalism has major flaws. It keeps classes of people at the bottom in poverty while funneling excess resources to the top. Capitalism also has major resets where it crashes like in 2008 where the bottom classes end up losing their resources disproportionately.  We definitely need either a new system or a severe restructuring of Capitalism so that the poor (usually POC) don't end up getting the short end of the stick.  I'm not sure which tenants of Marxism, original or in a modified state, should be a part of a new way to structure economic realities, but it's interesting to explore.

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2 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

@FairreLilette The difference between me bringing up the Marxists and you bringing up the killing of gypsies is that college kids aren't saying, "Gee, killing the gypsies is a great idea!" Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

Okay, no problem.  

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Here we see how W.E.B Du Bois is interpreting Marxism in the early 20th century. Not sure which parts carried through to the way various Black people envision Marxism today. 

But you can see here, it has nothing to do with murdering people:

http://www.webdubois.org/dbMNP.html

Capitalism has major flaws. It keeps classes of people at the bottom in poverty while funneling excess resources to the top. Capitalism also has major resets where it crashes like in 2008 where the bottom classes end up losing their resources disproportionately.  We definitely need either a new system or a severe restructuring of Capitalism so that the poor (usually POC) don't end up getting the short end of the stick.  I'm not sure which tenants of Marxism, original or in a modified state, should be a part of a new way to structure economic realities, but it's interesting to explore.

Tell that to the millions of dead people. 

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9 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

The poverty endured by POC compared to Whites is central to the discussion of BLM.  Additionally, the misunderstanding of Marxism expressed here is used to discredit their struggle for equality, to paint the entire movement as bad.   So we have never left the topic of BLM.

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29 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:
32 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Here we see how W.E.B Du Bois is interpreting Marxism in the early 20th century. Not sure which parts carried through to the way various Black people envision Marxism today. 

But you can see here, it has nothing to do with murdering people:

http://www.webdubois.org/dbMNP.html

Capitalism has major flaws. It keeps classes of people at the bottom in poverty while funneling excess resources to the top. Capitalism also has major resets where it crashes like in 2008 where the bottom classes end up losing their resources disproportionately.  We definitely need either a new system or a severe restructuring of Capitalism so that the poor (usually POC) don't end up getting the short end of the stick.  I'm not sure which tenants of Marxism, original or in a modified state, should be a part of a new way to structure economic realities, but it's interesting to explore.

Tell that to the millions of dead people. 

Oh you mean the dead people (40,000 yearly in the US) who die from lack of health insurance?

Or perhaps the murdered Natives when Capitalism spread like a plague across the land?

Maybe the slaves who died in transit to the US and never even made it to the US to be abused by Capitalism as it used every means it could to profit while ignoring human rights.

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10 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

@FairreLilette The difference between me bringing up the Marxists and you bringing up the killing of gypsies is that college kids aren't saying, "Gee, killing the gypsies is a great idea!" Anyways, we should stop talking about this because it's too intellectual and I don't want to get killed by the communists. Back to the topic of BLM please.

College kids aren't saying we should kill anyone.  You are misinterpreting Marxism and so imagine they are saying that.

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4 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

I won this debate on Marxism!

A debate on Marxism would take many, many pages of discussion....so can't see how you already won it.

Can you at least grasp that Marxism does not equal communism?

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3 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Be flippant if you wish. Marxism is only about control and power, the rest is just fluff.

Yes I’m being flippant, because saying someone is a leftist, socialist, communist, Marxist, in this context is ridiculous.

Its been pointed out many, many times politics in the US is so screwed and have shifted so far to the right what is called a liberal would be a conservative anywhere else in the world. 

The sky isn’t going to fall and Bolsheviks aren’t going to come for the elites because people are protesting for equal rights and police and criminal justice reform.

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25 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

College kids aren't saying we should kill anyone.  You are misinterpreting Marxism and so imagine they are saying that.

But are college kids being taught what happened with the the 20th century experimentation with Marxism?

I like Peterson's thoughts on it:

 

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If anything, the way millennials and generation Z are trending politically, they are already woke

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/

and that only means one thing, we’re heading for socialism.

There has to be something we can do about this...it’s gotta stop.

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51 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you at least grasp that Marxism does not equal communism?

What I was trying to say by showing Europe's history for the past several millennia is that all forms of government have been atrocious but that doesn't mean all are still the same either.

Plus, capitalism doesn't exist on it's own in America.  We have forms of socialism in our country too; the welfare system is one example.  However, this welfare system and unemployment, imo, are inadequate in the 21st Century as the job market has changed and we even have machines that are replacing certain jobs.

And, communistic countries have forms of capitalism in them especially China and Japan with their gifted ones in music such as C-Pop (Chinese Pop) and J-Pop (Japanese Pop) forms of music.  There are elitist communists too.   As a matter of fact, the "food" in the wet markets where it is suspected coronavirus may have started is not food for the poor, it is food for the wealthy who see certain "delicacies" a status symbol in Asia.  Your average working Chinese shop at modern grocery stores like we have in America; they cannot afford those kinds of "delicacies".  

Most capitalistic countries are really a mixture of systems.  

So, I don't really think any of it is necessary to bring into this discussion.  

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47 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

If anything, the way millennials and generation Z are trending politically, they are already woke

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/01/17/generation-z-looks-a-lot-like-millennials-on-key-social-and-political-issues/

and that only means one thing, we’re heading for socialism.

There has to be something we can do about this...it’s gotta stop.

We have hope for the future then!   And to hasten the new world..........

Fuddy-Duddy Be Gone.jpg

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29 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

So, I don't really think any of it is necessary to bring into this discussion.  

It shouldn't be necessary, I agree. But a primary reason T-rump got elected was because they managed to scaremonger too many people into believing the supposed horrific effects which would befall the US if those who want more socialism in the US were in power.  And so, we must define these terms to demonstrate that, for example, the Socialism we see in Europe (where 50% of taxes are spent on the public good as opposed to the 25% we spend here and so have inadequate health care & students unable to afford college) is actually a good thing.  

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1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

College kids aren't saying we should kill anyone.  You are misinterpreting Marxism and so imagine they are saying that.

But are college kids being taught what happened with the the 20th century experimentation with Marxism?

I like Peterson's thoughts on it:

I think they are being taught for the most part, but this depends a lot on the school and on their major.

But if the Marxism of the 1900's is extremely dissimilar to the modified Marxism being proposed today as possible solutions for economic problems,  Peterson equating the two as if Marxism is never modified throughout time, or implying the dangers are the same, is incorrect.

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51 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

And, communistic countries have forms of capitalism in them especially China and Japan

A small correction, Japan was never communistic , it was one of the imperialistic countries (emperor Hirohito).

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23 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

A small correction, Japan was never communistic , it was one of the imperialistic countries (emperor Hirohito).

Thank you.  It's funny, when I typed that, I wasn't sure about Japan, if it was communist or not.  I should have looked it up.

But, yet, my point was that many economies are really mixed now.  America does have aspects of socialism, though looks to me may be inadequate for the 21st Century.  Many jobs lost for many reasons as most people know already.  It's a different world now.   However, I'm sure others will disagree that America's aspects of socialism are inadequate, but let me just state my opinion too because I don't have time to get into something many of us already talked about a long time ago.  

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35 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

I can't stand the guy, and was never quite able to put my finger on his philosophy -- your article describes it well as 'fascist mysticism'.  It would be easy to simply dismiss him until realizing just how influential he is, within circles I won't mention.

Here's another article:

https://jacobinmag.com/2020/04/jordan-peterson-capitalism-postmodernism-ideology/

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1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Thank you.  It's funny, when I typed that, I wasn't sure about Japan, if it was communist or not.  I should have looked it up.

But, yet, my point was that many economies are really mixed now.  America does have aspects of socialism, though looks to me may be inadequate for the 21st Century.  Many jobs lost for many reasons as most people know already.  It's a different world now.   However, I'm sure others will disagree that America's aspects of socialism are inadequate, but let me just state my opinion too because I don't have time to get into something many of us already talked about a long time ago.  

Yes it's totally different world. These days all "developed" countries have elements from every economical system more or less while keeping main aspects of their base system.

Fact is a pure marxism/communism actually never existed, the whole idea was exploited by political parties and dictators so we are talking about a non viable solution even in those times.You don't expect of course someone who is overambitious to come and tell you "Hey you know what? I will fk you up in the end." Sweet talking works better.

Regardless of that though it has affected in multiple ways humanity to "progress" (according to how we understand the world today) on many things.

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4 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Yes I’m being flippant, because saying someone is a leftist, socialist, communist, Marxist, in this context is ridiculous.

Its been pointed out many, many times politics in the US is so screwed and have shifted so far to the right what is called a liberal would be a conservative anywhere else in the world. 

The sky isn’t going to fall and Bolsheviks aren’t going to come for the elites because people are protesting for equal rights and police and criminal justice reform.

Okie doke.

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