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12 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

In other words, that employer got woke!

The trouble is the word 'woke' now has huge negative connotations to it within the business world so business's are now wary of doing things that will upset the status-qou of their client base however small that change to 'woke' is. A prime example of this negativity is the phrase "get woke, go broke" and was the prime reason why Gillette lost $12billion in revenue and became the how-to of not to do PR ad's. The were blamed for calling their userbase sexist during the MeToo campaign. What's worse is they then brought it down to race.

Using their add, of the 43 abusive males in their 'woke' ad – 42 were white. 7 of the 8 hero men in the ad were black. Rather than showing an even percentage of white and black people being the hero's and an even percentage being 'abusive' they not only dominated it with males (their target audience) being abusive to females but what's more also stated through the ad that white males were worse than black males. The result, all males revolted and saw Gillette loose $12 billion in revenue.

If you want more examples of the negatives of a business or employer going 'woke' as you say here's a list of a few movies, games, businesses etc that decided to show how 'woke' their business is: http://theperilousfight.us/2019/06/17/get-woke-go-broke-the-master-list/

Perhaps its time to get a different word than 'woke'.

What Molly says is correct. There needs to be a better method of achieving this without outright saying everyone has 'implicit bias' or everyone has white privilege. You don't attack people by saying such things without seeing backlash to that very thing you want to have happen. The more of an attack there is the more people will continue to not be interested or push back against that idea. Unfortunately that is how humanity is.

Should people educate themselves and changed sure, but you cant expect people to not give backlash or outright refuse change when all they get from the other side is an oppressor.

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

The result, all males revolted and saw Gillette loose $12 billion in revenue.

I remember that advert, and since then, I've actively avoided their products as I thought that is a derogatory portrayal of men. Women make a lot of household consumable purchasing decisions. 😉 

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1 hour ago, Drayke Newall said:

The trouble is the word 'woke' now has huge negative connotations to it within the business world so business's are now wary of doing things that will upset the status-qou of their client base however small that change to 'woke' is. A prime example of this negativity is the phrase "get woke, go broke" and was the prime reason why Gillette lost $12billion in revenue and became the how-to of not to do PR ad's. The were blamed for calling their userbase sexist during the MeToo campaign. What's worse is they then brought it down to race.

Using their add, of the 43 abusive males in their 'woke' ad – 42 were white. 7 of the 8 hero men in the ad were black. Rather than showing an even percentage of white and black people being the hero's and an even percentage being 'abusive' they not only dominated it with males (their target audience) being abusive to females but what's more also stated through the ad that white males were worse than black males. The result, all males revolted and saw Gillette loose $12 billion in revenue.

If you want more examples of the negatives of a business or employer going 'woke' as you say here's a list of a few movies, games, businesses etc that decided to show how 'woke' their business is: http://theperilousfight.us/2019/06/17/get-woke-go-broke-the-master-list/

Perhaps its time to get a different word than 'woke'.

What Molly says is correct. There needs to be a better method of achieving this without outright saying everyone has 'implicit bias' or everyone has white privilege. You don't attack people by saying such things without seeing backlash to that very thing you want to have happen. The more of an attack there is the more people will continue to not be interested or push back against that idea. Unfortunately that is how humanity is.

Should people educate themselves and changed sure, but you cant expect people to not give backlash or outright refuse change when all they get from the other side is an oppressor.

We stopped buying Gillette just because of that add.. My husband seen it and took it personal, I seen it and took it personal just because I know the men in my life are nothing like that..

It really makes me mad when I see things like that and know that it is just a campaign that is trying to give tunnel vision to some cause.. It's a sheep herder gathering their sheep.

There are Dead Beat Dads and Dead Beat Moms, Abusive Husbands and Abusive Wives, Child abusing Men and Child abusing Women..

Boys say mean things, Guess what world,so do girls..

But that's just focusing on the negatives..

There are also Great Dads and Great Mothers and Loving Husbands and loving Wives and Parents that will put themselves in front of us and harms way..

It really doesn't sound like getting woke if you end up half blind..

 

That add was an insult to the good men, like my husband and the great fathers, like mine..

I get mad just thinking about it.. My father is my freaking hero!

 

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Interessting list. I played Wildstar, but the reducing of the female chestsize had nothing to do with why they failed. At all. 
Oh, and ME:A didn't completely fail either, despite the controversy, and it had unrelated problems as well. 

So... dunno, makes it hard for me to take that list seriously. 


 

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2 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

I remember that advert, and since then, I've actively avoided their products as I thought that is a derogatory portrayal of men. Women make a lot of household consumable purchasing decisions. 😉 

Here at Gillette,We care about women so much.. Because they'll pay more for razors.

hehehehe

 

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4 minutes ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

Interessting list. I played Wildstar, but the reducing of the female chestsize had nothing to do with why they failed. At all. 
Oh, and ME:A didn't completely fail either, despite the controversy, and it had unrelated problems as well. 

So... dunno, makes it hard for me to take that list seriously. 


 

That list must have been made before Terminator and Charlies Angels came out..

I can't believe they killed John Connor!! \o/

hehehehe

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1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

That list must have been made before Terminator and Charlies Angels came out..

I can't believe they killed John Connor!! \o/

hehehehe

Not to mention Ghostbusters, MIB 4, star wars (the Mary Sue), han solo etc. It is an old list just best I could find at quick glance.

1 hour ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

Interessting list. I played Wildstar, but the reducing of the female chestsize had nothing to do with why they failed. At all. 
Oh, and ME:A didn't completely fail either, despite the controversy, and it had unrelated problems as well. 

So... dunno, makes it hard for me to take that list seriously. 

I never played Wildstar but did know of some of their issues. Whilst female chest size may not have been the main issue it is once again like I mentioned the negative connotations any form of 'woke' has on a product or business these days. It is instantly perceived as an attack against their userbase. If Wildstar had simply made the change without any form of article from the left or that Anna whosawhatsit that was all the rage saying games like wildstar are sexist, there probably wouldn't have been any impact. The fact though that the move was tied to concerns shown by some and articles that males are sexist cause of liking to use female toons with larger proportions, that instantly impacted on their userbase and saw backlash.

As to ME:A, no that as an utter failure both system, story wise but also due to the backlash seen towards developers in relation to racism as well as the whole gay relationship scenario.

Even if some are in that list are far fetched (i don't believe they are) you cant deny that everything that is used to either discredit males, females or bring issues like race, LGBT etc in a negative way i.e. 'woke'  against the original intent always fails. For example Battlefield V replacing a story in RL that was achieved heroically by males with females (Anna whosawhatsit was their go to for such things) or Gillette implying that black people treat women better. These are undeniable. Woke is toxic at the moment and is why most businesses have learnt to steer clear of any form of it showing. There is a reason why Disney continued with Mandalorian as is despite people complaining no women and why other shows have now continued recently despite backlash as to BLM etc

If a person changes for the better due to realisation or research on such topics, good for them, but don't force it down peoples throats as it will only ever end badly for not only the business but also whatever agenda they are trying to push.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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7 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Not to mention Ghostbusters, MIB 4 etc. It is an old list just best I could find at quick glance.

 

I didn't mind that one that much since I'm a really big Kristen Wiig fan..I think she is the funniest woman on the planet..

It didn't really feel like a woke movie to me since they were mostly from SNL like the original..

Where Terminator, they just destroyed the heart and core of the story just to be woke. it felt like a political invasion..

 

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I'm not denying that they got backlash from that move - I was against the change as well. I'm just saying it had VERY little to do with why they failed. 
Blizzard got backlash for changing one of Overlooks characters Poses - yet they're not broke and still milking their userba... I mean, they are thriving.
Eso put in quite a few gay couples. No backlash, no going broke.

(I'm saying that as someone who is female, and happens to have no problem with any of that, I happen to like skimpy armor and will almost always pick the tiny waist, busty chest option in any game that lets me, and I know many women that do so as well.  I hate options taken away from me because someone else decides that it's demeaning for me.)

I don't view ME:A as an utter failure. Is it a great game? Lol no, of course not, but I had fun playing it. I played it after almost all patches went through, tho. 
Storywise - not sure if it ever had a chance to be good, it had some gargantuan shoes to fill. What I'm saying is, it's a decent game on it's own. It's a mediocre at best ME game, tho. 
EA is a *****ty publisher, and that's a big reason for th games shortcommings. (Too little time for bugfixes and polishing, artifically bloated gameplay - not enough development time, basically)
That's not intendet as an excuse for the devteam. They DID screw up a loooooot, and most of that is the reason why it wasn't as successfull. 
I don't know what you mean with Gay Romance scenario. Bioware games usually have at least one gay/lesbian romance option. The later installations got a bit more than the first ones. 
Not sure what's the problem with that?

Look, I didn't like what they did with ghostbusters either. I'm all for more women in leading roles and stuff, but I prefer them to star in their own adventures.


 

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Talk about hypocrisy, you want white people to wake up and understand the systemic racism  that is prevalent in this country, yet get offended by an ad showing the systemic sexism in the same country?!?!? I was NOT offended by the gillette ad. I cried. I wish someone had stopped the bullies i dealt with daily. I wish someone had told off my sexist uncles who teated my aunts and female cousins as servants. Never once was a male asked to fetch something, it was always a female told to do it. More and more men are realizing how bad they unconsciously treat women and you think that's a bad thing?

We need to do better as a society. We need to treat each other with respect no matter the skin color or gender.  

I am sadly disappointed in some people in this thread. 

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Anyone who was offended by the Gillette ad should probably spend a lot more time doing some serious introspection. 

4 hours ago, Haselden said:

All I have to say about that, but if I had all these issues as a white person i'd move to canada or europe.

You haven’t really thought that through, have you?

 

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20 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Talk about hypocrisy, you want white people to wake up and understand the systemic racism  that is prevalent in this country, yet get offended by an ad showing the systemic sexism in the same country?!?!? I was NOT offended by the gillette ad. I cried. I wish someone had stopped the bullies i dealt with daily. I wish someone had told off my sexist uncles who teated my aunts and female cousins as servants. Never once was a male asked to fetch something, it was always a female told to do it. More and more men are realizing how bad they unconsciously treat women and you think that's a bad thing?

We need to do better as a society. We need to treat each other with respect no matter the skin color or gender.  

I am sadly disappointed in some people in this thread. 

You'll have to dig to find me hating on white people or any people for that matter, because of their color or race or even telling them to wake up..

What you will find me going after is politicians and government, federal and city and media and things of that nature..

Unlike that add trying to catch a wave/opportunity to sell more women's razors by trying to show all men have this problem.. I look at the individuals with my eyes wide open and my own experience and view, not someone else's..

 

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1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I was NOT offended by the gillette ad.

that's fine. I had a different reaction, which is also fine. We can all make our statement with our wallets.

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1 hour ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Anyone who was offended by the Gillette ad should probably spend a lot more time doing some serious introspection. 

You haven’t really thought that through, have you?

 

yes beats getting shot, or living in the gutter for all your life. Moving to another country for equal benefits would make sense for most people. Heck, in US history that was one of the main reasons why the colonials left great Britain back during the 1700s, for rights. Like I literally gave a bucket list of on issues African American issues they face and they won't move. Unhappy African Americans want to duke this out with BLM card. Which is fine, they got chokeholds banned now in all 51 states, and most of all the confederate crap removed.

 
However,  I don't see America being able to fix other issues such as employment, poverty, and courtrooms getting fixed. Not in this pandemic. If this keeps up America could also run the risk of going into another depression. We're most likely heading into a recession again no doubt.
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24 minutes ago, Haselden said:

yes beats getting shot, or living in the gutter for all your life. Moving to another country for equal benefits would make sense for most people. Heck, in US history that was one of the main reasons why the colonials left great Britain back during the 1700s, for rights. Like I literally gave a bucket list of on issues African American issues they face and they won't move. Unhappy African Americans want to duke this out with BLM card. Which is fine, they got chokeholds banned now in all 51 states, and most of all the confederate crap removed.

 
However,  I don't see America being able to fix other issues such as employment, poverty, and courtrooms getting fixed. Not in this pandemic. If this keeps up America could also run the risk of going into another depression. We're most likely heading into a recession again no doubt.

Have you sat down yet and figured out how much it would cost to move to another country? Including all the legal fees and the amount you must have IN CASH to move to Canada? I think not. Must be nice to have the kind of money that you can just pick up and move to another country whenever you feel like it. 

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22 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Have you sat down yet and figured out how much it would cost to move to another country? Including all the legal fees and the amount you must have IN CASH to move to Canada? I think not. Must be nice to have the kind of money that you can just pick up and move to another country whenever you feel like it. 

Should read my first post, I mentioned this already. But you get the point. But honestly, it's a lot more feasible and cheaper to move. If the government were to fund the trip to another country for African Americans that are in poverty. Would probably fix a lot of this issue, then African Americans have the same solution as Native Americans in the US do today. African Americans could either live with their community in Africa with their own laws & government.  Or try to stick it out as racism gets fixed slowly because it's not going to be overnight.

 

I also think that would be better than what BLM wants trying to support the black communities for years which won't fix employment issues on African Americans...  

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13 hours ago, comitose said:

One will always get takeaway or two from sitting in on a panel discussion. The speakers were very good and being held in voice you felt how emotional the speakers were as they spoke. There were over 50 people there, some from European time. More talks should take place.

Yes. It's very interesting the way I was taught in school. Just the other day a friend had pointed this out to me. 

I'm glad the meeting went well and that you had a few takeaways. I find that any time I put a little focus on these issues my awareness grows. I hope you will announce any further meetings.

Yes,  education can be unbelievable in retrospect.  I remember my earliest notions of America, even lines from poems such as "Columbus sailed the ocean blue, in fourteen hundred ninety two". And then we all had a happy turkey dinner with Indians donning feathers and all present at the table passing the peas to each other, smiling . I remember coloring the black clothing of the kind Pilgrims wearing funny hats. But I can't blame a more sanitized version taught to young children who should be protected from the intensity of violence, but surely one would think eventually, in high school at least, we should be learning that the slaves were not simply gardening out in the field or happy to have a job so they could eat on the big, beautiful plantation...lol.

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6 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Talk about hypocrisy, you want white people to wake up and understand the systemic racism  that is prevalent in this country, yet get offended by an ad showing the systemic sexism in the same country?!?!? I was NOT offended by the gillette ad. I cried. I wish someone had stopped the bullies i dealt with daily. I wish someone had told off my sexist uncles who teated my aunts and female cousins as servants. Never once was a male asked to fetch something, it was always a female told to do it. More and more men are realizing how bad they unconsciously treat women and you think that's a bad thing?

We need to do better as a society. We need to treat each other with respect no matter the skin color or gender.  

I am sadly disappointed in some people in this thread. 

lol yeah I remember the last time my father tried to get me to wait on him like a waitress would, slouched all comfy-like in his recliner displaying his usual king-like attitude of expecting any women surrounding him being there only to wait on him hand and foot as if we were his personal slaves.
He held out a glass to me expecting a refill and I ignored it, giving him a piercing look of disapproval so intense that it was the last time he ever held out his glass to me for a refill..lol.
My fathers attitude toward my mother was that she was always expected to serve him food and drink, and to keep the house clean -- this was especially ridiculous as she worked twice as hard in her job outside the home as he did.

Of course I don't mind, and even enjoy, serving drinks and food to family in present times. But it's when another expects you to do all the serving as if that's why you exist, and never thinks of reciprocating, that it becomes a problem. 

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This advertisement featuring a lesbian couple was released in India when gay sex was illegal. Now, India has finally caught up with the times by legalizing homosexuality. And what a cute couple:

 

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2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

You'll have to dig to find me hating on white people or any people for that matter, because of their color or race or even telling them to wake up..

What you will find me going after is politicians and government, federal and city and media and things of that nature..

Unlike that add trying to catch a wave/opportunity to sell more women's razors by trying to show all men have this problem.. I look at the individuals with my eyes wide open and my own experience and view, not someone else's..

 

This is certainly the most honest answer I see here. The problem is not that some have become more or less "WOKE". This is just an invention of politicians that has caught on to the gullible population and brings votes to one party or another, depending on how woke or anti-woke each is.
An extraordinary example is the controversial "Gone with the wind". For some it is a film that should be banned because it does not really show what slavery was like in America. For others, it is a work of art that must be preserved and for the fact that he brought the first Oscar to a black person , Hattie McDaniel. What is not really discussed is the fact that Hattie McDaniel was unable to attend the premiere of "Gone with the Wind" in Atlanta because it was held at a whites-only theater, and at the Oscars ceremony in Los Angeles she sat at a segregated table at the side of the room; the Ambassador Hotel where the ceremony was held was for whites only, but allowed McDaniel in as a favor. McDaniel died in 1952. Her final wish – to be buried in Hollywood Cemetery – was denied because the graveyard was restricted to whites only.

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12 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

We stopped buying Gillette just because of that add.. My husband seen it and took it personal, I seen it and took it personal just because I know the men in my life are nothing like that..

It really makes me mad when I see things like that and know that it is just a campaign that is trying to give tunnel vision to some cause.. It's a sheep herder gathering their sheep.

Yes I don't look at it like they are actually trying to support positive changes in society, sincerely believing in a cause.  I think they're just trying to sell more stuffs   :(    

As an example of a company truly supporting social causes, I feel LL's announcement in support of Black Lives Matter is sincere  -- I think many or most of LL actually believes in equality.  Likewise with their graphics on their website I see portrayals which support gays during Pride month. What I like best is that the presentations are tasteful, not showing any hatred or disapproval toward those who might not agree with their beliefs. The adds are purely affirmative.

However we can't deny the usefulness of advertisements for reflecting back the values of a society, or even moving society in a better direction in some cases.  For example, POC and gays who never see representations of themselves on TV can feel they are not important in society -- they feel unseen and unheard like they are invisible and don't matter.

Like it or not, TV commercials do demonstrate what is occurring in society, and under the right circumstances could be useful in changing it.  Put those capitalists to work for us!

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53 minutes ago, Haselden said:

Should read my first post, I mentioned this already. But you get the point. But honestly, it's a lot more feasible and cheaper to move. If the government were to fund the trip to another country for African Americans that are in poverty. Would probably fix a lot of this issue, then African Americans have the same solution as Native Americans in the US do today. African Americans could either live with their community in Africa with their own laws & government.  Or try to stick it out as racism gets fixed slowly because it's not going to be overnight.

 

I also think that would be better than what BLM wants trying to support the black communities for years which won't fix employment issues on African Americans...  

 I am First Nations. No, the same solutions will not apply to us as the situations are different. This was our country long before the Vikings showed up, we aren't leaving.

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15 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Perhaps its time to get a different word than 'woke'.

There needs to be a better method of achieving this without outright saying everyone has 'implicit bias'

Everyone does have implicit bias though. This is simply reality. We are socialized to deal with the world via people who gave us direct instruction and rewards for conforming in the past, and we also model behaviors and attitudes of others which we soaked up like a sponge with little awareness of the processes occurring. Much of this socialization was imprinted into our brains at a very young age, making it difficult to gain access to the early brainwashing.  A percentage of early learning is spontaneously altered throughout the natural course of life as we have new experiences and process them, choosing new attitudes and behavior, but much of it is buried at unconscious levels and we can't change until we make a deliberate effort to become more conscious so we can clearly see how our early impressions affect current beliefs and behaviors.

Years ago there were groups formed to bring to light the socialization of men and women into certain roles which limited their freedom -- they were called "consciousness raising" groups.  In more recent times it appears Black people have chosen a word  -- "woke" -- to represent bringing awareness and subsequent solutions to the issues they face, and it is now applied to other social issues related to equality and justice as well. But in any case, most Blacks I've encountered and researched approve of this term. It's not for us, as Whites, to decide what words they can use to define their experience in society -- even if the word becomes politicized by idiot politicians seeking votes, or even if it's used by those who have nothing better to do than fight battles for fun on TwitterSphere.

We must focus on the core issue -- that Blacks and other POC are discriminated against and we need to develop greater awareness and solutions. Don't get caught up in those who try to profit and use or distort worthwhile issues for their own gain, subverting the real and sincere cause we need to pay attention to.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Yes *some* black people may be well off, but the good majority of us are not. I think a lot of people see celebrities and sports players and assume black people are doing wonderfully. But it's just not the case. As of 2009, the average black male makes around 23-24 thousand a year. That's low income. Not to far from poverty level. And, black women fair no better. There's a lot of discrimination when it comes to the job and housing market. As well as higher education. 

Real integration is true equality, which as I've said before we are simply not. I go into more detail on Twitter as I've been walking on egg shells here.

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