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14 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

 

This video makes me really sad. I mean it's bad enough when a group with more power exploits a less-powerful group for their own gain, but when the group with the most power manages to get the disadvantaged group to turn against themselves it's especially heartbreaking. This internalized sense of identity is so common among colonized populations -- taking on the perception of those who have exploited them in a misguided attempt to become empowered themselves.

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On 7/5/2020 at 9:56 PM, Akane Nacht said:

There is a saying I heard once: Those who are not liberal in their youth have no heart, and those who are not conservative in their maturity have no brain.

People are free to believe what they like in Singapore, but if they stir discord on race and religion, they will be explaining themselves to the police.

I am a minority in Singapore, and in my 50s. And I think this person you cited is suffering mainly from youth and an excess of idleness. She can thank people like me and my family who made Singapore a more tolerant society so she is free to indulge in her ideas. Let's hope she recovers some sense as she grows older.

ps. I googled this person. Apparently she was given a warning by police last year. Also she doesn't live in Singapore anymore. 😂

** Plus a government propaganda video interviewing  Tharman Shanmugaratnam **

There are many good things about your society and in some aspects I view it as better than America -- I hope you will keep this in mind as I proceed to analyze what I see as wrong. The most important factor for me in evaluating any society is how it treats the the least among its population -- it's a matter of what the powerful does to the weak -- and I'm afraid your society gets a failing grade in this respect. The migrant workers, making up over 1/5th of your population, live in deplorable conditions without even the protection of a minimum wage. Your economy is based on this slave labor due to the lack of innovation in technology which many other Asian countries figured out, and all because you followed a neoliberal path, raking in higher profits via enjoying a cheap supply of labor that maintains a bottom class to exploit and prop up your economy. In other words, it's a hyper-capitalistic society and places profit above human rights. The criminalization of homosexuality and excessive control of its citizens via Facebook and the Sedition Act is bad enough, but the exploitation of migrants to prop up your very high standard of living is even worse.  There are two Singapores -- one for citizens, long-term residents and expatriates, and one for the low-wage migrant workers who provide the back-breaking labor upon which Singapore gleams.

Regarding the video you posted, despite it being government propaganda which always paints itself in the best possible light while hiding faults, I like Tharman Shanmugaratnam as a person from what I can see. I actually have a soft spot for Indians as I've been involved in Yoga meditation for years and even attend services in India these days via Zoom, but I think Tharman is what we call here an 'Uncle Tom', or I guess since he's Indian we could call him an 'Uncle Tomananda' since he's Indian himself and abusing mostly Indian migrants in Singapore. He appears to have no loyalty to where he came from and exploits Indian migrants in order to profit via his Singaporean status. It COULD be a good thing to join with others in a new venture such as the relatively new creation of the city-state known as Singapore, and Singapore does appear to minimize racial & culture differences when one is an established Singaporean, but I'm afraid 'Uncle Tomananda' is an apt description of him when he exploits the culture which nurtured him and from which he emerged.

Both America and Singapore built their wealth on the backs of cheap slave labor, albeit in different ways and degrees.  I hope your country is doing something to remedy the situation, but so far I can't see it's even acknowledged as a problem by the PAP-government. Here in America, well, the streets have been exploding and I only hope at least a few more of those who were sleeping will 'get woke' and see we have a problem.

Why Does Singapore Have So Many Low-wage Migrant Workers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtNsGDLKCIM

COVID-19 Surge Exposes Ugly Truth About Singapore’s Treatment Of Migrant Workers
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/singapore-coronavirus-migrant-worker_n_5ea15e27c5b69150246df77f

Maybe the prime minister of the conservative PAP-government which has been in power since 1959 could reduce his salary a bit more (I guess he's down from 3 million yearly to a bit over 2 million) and help the disadvantaged migrant workers:

 

singapore salary.jpg

Edited by Luna Bliss
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24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

...when the group with the most power manages to get the disadvantaged group to turn against themselves it's especially heartbreaking. This internalized sense of identity is so common among colonized populations -- taking on the perception of those who have exploited them in a misguided attempt to become empowered themselves.

Getting people to turn on themselves is the key tool needed to keep a system going...

Something else the video shows - this form of discrimination has been globally exported by the 'beauty industry' with assorted 'lightening creams' sold in Asia, Latin America, and Africa.

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Solidarity...

Solidarity means getting people of color across the world working together to end downpression. It also means accepting allies who come from the 'oppressor class' of their relevant society when and where they are truly allies seeking to end things.

One that thing that is bad for solidarity is when we rip into each other's weak points and end up doing the work of the downpressor for him.

Disunity, discord, and infighting are the easy paths.

 

Before we get into battles of who is failing to clean up their own house, let's try to focus on the wider struggle.

 

One of the things the downpressive systems of the world are extremely good about is ignoring each other's flaws when it comes to advancing their cause. Look at how the GOP always circles the wagons even though we all know they hate each other, look at how people like Putin, Trump, Xi, Dutarte, Kim, et al always 'get on message' with each other when they need to, despite their differences.

 

So when I see in this thread that folks are ripping into each other because of who's society fails worse... it's just sad... I'm just old enough to remember the days when all the Civil Rights of the 60s was shattering into the fighting of the 70s and cross-racial gang wars of the 80s - the downpresser gets in there, and uses your weakest links to rip your movement apart. All while 'Evangelicals' ally with the KKK, an Atheist Rape-happy President, and Wall Street - because when the chips fall; evil works together to get it done.

So...

Solidarity.

Take a moment and think about it...

Or you'll just rip yourselves apart again and be easy pickings.

 

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2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

...when the group with the most power manages to get the disadvantaged group to turn against themselves it's especially heartbreaking. This internalized sense of identity is so common among colonized populations -- taking on the perception of those who have exploited them in a misguided attempt to become empowered themselves.

Getting people to turn on themselves is the key tool needed to keep a system going...

Something else the video shows - this form of discrimination has been globally exported by the 'beauty industry' with assorted 'lightening creams' sold in Asia, Latin America, and Africa.

Yes the key to divide people seems to be giving one group small favors (am reading about that now...how in the early colonies the wealthy Whites divided the poor Whites via giving them favors so they would be less likely to join with Blacks and present a larger and formidable force against wealthy Whites).  I suppose you could say regarding colorism, those with the lighter skins are rewarded in numerous ways (jobs, relationships, general social approval) and this creates a split between darker-skinned and lighter-skinned Black women in their community.

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1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Disunity, discord, and infighting are the easy paths.

So when I see in this thread that folks are ripping into each other because of who's society fails worse... it's just sad.

Agree, I've encountered enough infighting in feminist groups to see the folly in that.

I don't know if you're taking about me regarding trying to see who has the worst society, but that's not what I was doing. 

My intent is never to prove one society is worse than the other. In any such comparison I'm afraid the US, built totally on slavery and genocide, would win hands down. Comparisons between countries can provide a unique understanding of one's own country however, if one takes the time to investigate and compare in depth. Sometimes similarities are discovered, and sometimes differences of degree.  It's kind of amazing really -- seeing what one is not via understanding the differences in another country can illuminate what one is. It certainly has developed awareness for me.     

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Agree, I've encountered enough infighting in feminist groups to see the folly in that.

I don't know if you're taking about me regarding trying to see who has the worst society, but that's not what I was doing. 

My intent is never to prove one society is worse than the other. In any such comparison I'm afraid the US, built totally on slavery and genocide, would win hands down. Comparisons between countries can provide a unique understanding of one's own country however, if one takes the time to investigate and compare in depth. Sometimes similarities are discovered, and sometimes differences of degree.  It's kind of amazing really -- seeing what one is not via understanding the differences in another country can illuminate what one is. It certainly has developed awareness for me.     

You don't have to look too far to find a good comparison..Just look upward.

 

Years ago I heard this song.. I was really surprised how much information they knew for a bunch of head bangers..That's what I get for stereotyping them..

hehehehe

 

 

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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18 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

You don't have to look too far to find a good comparison..Just look upward.

Not quite sure I know what you mean, but if you mean our world around us I can say that if I read anymore hidden History of what Natives and Blacks endured in our country I may not be able to function as well as I should. Perhaps it's something that should only be discovered in small doses...in between gardening and playing with the cats...

* Well, I guess I should extend my dismay to all countries, as I've been reading about colonialized countries as well as systems of government, Capitalist ones, outside the US too...

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43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Not quite sure I know what you mean, but if you mean our world around us I can say that if I read anymore hidden History of what Natives and Blacks endured in our country I may not be able to function as well as I should. Perhaps it's something that should only be discovered in small doses...in between gardening and playing with the cats...

 Many tend to focus on this country and not the continent.

I understand it can be a bit much to take in and I'm not saying, dive in and do research..I'm just saying, you wouldn't have to look far to find a comparison..

In my eyes, it seems like most never seem to look above us.. It's always south of the border or here, but never seem to see up.

 

I don't like going into the past myself and looking at all the terrible things, because I start getting angry..I try to focus on how resilient and strong hard to get rid of we are..

There have been Vikings,Spaniards, English, French and more.. When I really get to thinking deep about it, and how much the people of this half of the world have went though and still remain.. There comes a sense of power with being part of that legacy.

There is a message there to stay resilient and strong and keep on chugging..I've heard people say, you can't get a positive out of a negative.. If that were the case we would never get anywhere from our experiences and lessons..There would be no such thing as ,what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger..

My families link could have been cut at any time through all the things of the past, but it wasn't.. When I get that deep in thinking about it, how close it was to happening.. A lot of things that I thought were important become low on the list..

To lay down would be disrespectful to all those before me that were taken away that made it possible for me to be here..

I'm gonna stop now.. I'm starting to get into long post territory and don't want to really change any course of where the thread is going..

I tend to ramble on at times..

hehehe

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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3 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

There have been Vikings,Spaniards, English, French and more.. When I really get to thinking deep about it, and how much the people of this half of the world have went though and still remain.. There comes a sense of power with being part of that legacy.

There is a message there to stay resilient and strong and keep on chugging..I've heard people say, you can't get a positive out of a negative.. If that were the case we would never get anywhere from our experiences and lessons..There would be no such thing as ,what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger..

My families link could have been cut at any time through all the things of the past, but it wasn't.. When I get that deep in thinking about it, how close it was to happening.. A lot of things that I thought were important become low on the list..

To lay down would be disrespectful to all those before me that were taken away that made it possible for me to be here..

This! So much this! 

The problem is, no one ever really listens. They hear it but they don't see it. If they did they would have to admit to all the past, present and future wrongs, so they choose to not listen and remain blind.

 

And the Russians. Don't forget what the Russians did in Alaska.

Quote

Some groups of Alaska Native peoples have experienced actual slavery and extreme economic exploitation and cultural violence at the hands of colonial powers. Russian enslavement of the Aleut peoples as workers in the fur seal harvest was replaced in the late 1800s by continuing exploitation by the United States government after Russia sold Alaska to the U.S. In addition, the internment of the Aleuts during World War II resulted in death and dislocation for many villagers. (In 1988, at the direction of the United Nations, the U.S. government issued a formal apology to the Aleut and Japanese-American people interned during WWII.)

Lastly, although the Anti-Discrimination Act was passed in 1945, discrimination against Alaska Native people (as well as other non-dominant groups) persists in subtle and not-so-subtle ways in modern society. Native people regularly report instances of mistreatment, ranging from long waits to receive service in business establishments to being on the receiving end of negative jokes and slurs to threats or incidents of physical or sexual violence.

Such mistreatment contributes to the stresses that can fuel episodes of drinking or violence.

https://www.adn.com/voices/article/colonialism-wreaked-havoc-alaska-native-peoples/2009/02/05/

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9 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

So when I see in this thread that folks are ripping into each other because of who's society fails worse... it's just sad...

Couldn't agree more. We could try to learn from each other's strengths, too, and be open minded about different solutions, even if it doesn't dovetail with our own ideology. I really believe most people are after the same thing, just using different methods to get there.

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8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

So you are denying racial issues are a problem in your country, despite one fifth of the migrant population living in deplorable conditions, and without even minimum wage protection?   I think this is the reason why you can't comprehend the racial problems we have in our country...because you deny your own. You've repeatedly made fun of "white privilege", and "Chinese privilege", and the minorities in your country trying to bring abuses to light, among other statements you've made I never confronted . And this is why I pointed out your own issues -- in the hope you would see the racial problems both our countries have.

i think you are wrong with this portrayal

Akane has not denied that there is racism in their country. Akane, like others on here, chooses not to wear sackcloth and prostrate themselves, petitioning for forgiveness, before the suffering altar

penitents can sometimes make it more about themselves than about the issue. Meaning that for penitents it can become all about pointing out their own failures and the failures that they see in others. A view of failure born from their prostration before the suffering altar

it isn't about prostration, forgiveness, or the levels of purity of penitence. Is about remedies

here is a situation in the USA that affects some black people in the US South. Is similar to a situation that happens in Hawaii to the native population there. Google for Mark Zuckerberg Hawaii for an instance of this. To prevent this situation from continuing to happen then what remedy needs to be put in place in these systemic cases ?  In the Hawaii case, it isn't for Mark Zuckerberg to become a better person, even tho this is what happened in at least in this one particular Hawaii matter

https://features.propublica.org/black-land-loss/heirs-property-rights-why-black-families-lose-land-south/

is not enough to point out that there is a situation here. My question is: What could the remedy be ?

i asked Akane a question about another situation earlier. Akane's answer was that in a situation where there is no remedy then best to let it go.  Which is true when there is no remedy. Some situations tho do have a remedy and when so then what might that be

there is a remedy for the people in the US South story I linked too. The question is: What is it ? And when we read the accompanying linked articles then we can see what that can be

 

articles, blogs, posts, vids, interviews, etc from majoritarian people about situations that overly-benefit the majority, and do not propose a remedy are the ultimate form of self-serving penitence suffering. Made even more penitent-pure by simply proposing that the remedy is for majoritarians to be better people. Lets make it about my perception of your and mine own personal failure to be a better person, and how we can be better

i don't mean to be sound harsh Luna, but I would like to see the conversation more turn toward what we think the remedies could be. We (the royal readership we) may not always agree on what those remedies could be, but I do think that only pointing to being a better person (and the perceived failings to be better in others) is not what is being asked of the majority by an oppressed minority

the only actual way to be a better person is to actually do something about it. To help actuate remedies that have a tangible non-negative effect on the lives of the oppressed persons. The remedy being sought is not for the oppressor to become a better person as if this is the goal in itself. The remedy goal being sought is to actually relieve the actual suffering of the oppressed persons

 

this said, here is another story

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/122055047/doing-well-for-a-mori-my-experience-of-racism-in-new-zealand

this person's proposed remedy is that those who give him chit, please stop doing this. This person doesn't care why or how they stop. Just that they do. Stop giving this person chit and they will think better of those who do stop

it isn't that we think that we are a better person. It is that others know we are a better person by our actions. Am getting into the concept of mana now so will finish here

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12 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

In my eyes, it seems like most never seem to look above us

Well this is something I've been wondering about, regarding "above us", or Canada (in present times).  Do they have what is called a modern day slavery system in Canada as we do here (the prison system which unfairly targets POC and incarcerates them in unequal proportion compared to the White population)?

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47 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i don't mean to be sound harsh Luna, but I would like to see the conversation more turn toward what we think the remedies could be. We (the royal readership we) may not always agree on what those remedies could be, but I do think that only pointing to being a better person (and the perceived failings to be better in others) is not what is being asked of the majority by an oppressed minority

the only actual way to be a better person is to actually do something about it. To help actuate remedies that have a tangible non-negative effect on the lives of the oppressed persons. The remedy being sought is not for the oppressor to become a better person as if this is the goal in itself. The remedy goal being sought is to actually relieve the actual suffering of the oppressed persons

You don't sound harsh at all Molly. I agree with your main point -- that we need to actually do something about the problem eventually and not simply recognize it.  I think you're missing a step here though, in that people can't actually do something about the problem until they admit there actually is a problem. This is the point we are at with so many people in the US today -- they don't believe POC are discriminated against in the least -- there is some sort of disconnect. Many don't believe the bias experiments or testimony by POC which proves prejudice exists.  Hence, this is why there is the movement toward "getting woke", or bringing awareness to the issues. This doesn't mean nobody wants or is thinking of solutions, or is thinking the goal is only to be "good".... it simply means.....how can you solve a problem people don't believe is even there?

 

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

this said, here is another story

https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/122055047/doing-well-for-a-mori-my-experience-of-racism-in-new-zealand

this person's proposed remedy is that those who give him chit, please stop doing this. This person doesn't care why or how they stop. Just that they do. Stop giving this person chit and they will think better of those who do stop

it isn't that we think that we are a better person. It is that others know we are a better person by our actions. Am getting into the concept of mana now so will finish here

Nobody I know is fighting for social justice in order to believe they are a good person (thinking of my Social Work friends and others working hard to bring awareness to the injustice minorities face).  They are doing it because they believe in justice and want to minimize suffering in the world.  The viewpoint you are expressing is actually a right-wing talking point -- that liberals are in this fight only to feel they are 'the good people' as they point out the faults others have in perpetuating prejudice.  It's the way the right-wing deflects the issues, blames liberals via assigning an inaccurate motivation for their behavior, instead of owning the fact that we do indeed have prejudice here and they are responsible for it as much as anyone else is.

Not to say there aren't some liberal  'goody two-shoes' out there simply wanting to fight and be the virtuous winners, the 'good ones',  displaying little depth in their beliefs and efforts and so only 'virtue signalling'.....especially in the twitter-sphere. But to portray all those who are trying to bring awareness to prejudice as one of them is inaccurate. 

* Not to say, Molly, that you are any kind of alt-right person in the least!   I just think you might be, in your usual quest to see the positive,  unaware of or unable to truly comprehend how many weird people we actually have in America!

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17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well this is something I've been wondering about, regarding "above us", or Canada (in present times).  Do they have what is called a modern day slavery system in Canada as we do here (the prison system which unfairly targets POC and incarcerates them in unequal proportion compared to the White population)?

I'm not an expert on current Canada, But I just did a quick search at a few places and am finding pretty similar numbers at each of the places I visited..

As of 2018 1/3 of the prison population was indigenous.. more than 30%

Indigenous might have made up 5% of the population of Canada at the time. I thought it was more like 4.5%..But like I said,I'm not an expert on Canada today..hehehe

Blacks with a population of around 2.5% at the time made up around 7% of the prison population..

Whites with a population of around 78% made up around 56% of the prison population..

 

My main reason for replying was, I took it as you saying how the U.S. built..I was just saying you wouldn't have to look far to find a comparison in that..

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

others on here, chooses not to wear sackcloth and prostrate themselves, petitioning for forgiveness, before the suffering altar

penitents can sometimes make it more about themselves than about the issue. Meaning that for penitents it can become all about pointing out their own failures and the failures that they see in others. A view of failure born from their prostration before the suffering altar

it isn't about prostration, forgiveness, or the levels of purity of penitence. Is about remedies

There are some White people who, upon developing awareness of how they have harmed minority populations, and how they continue to benefit off the wealth in this country acquired through slavery and genocide, feel bad.  This could be a good thing, I mean doesn't it simply demonstrate they have a conscience?  If someone ruminates on feeling 'bad' and has trouble functioning, or thinks this is the only meaning to becoming woke however, then I'd say they need to seek therapy!   Or if they are one of those  few people proclaiming to be White is now bad and they are guilty, well once again they need to seek therapy.

Not sure why you bring this up though, as there are so few who actually walk around feeling like they are so 'bad'.  There is quite a bit of joking going on in comedy shows where comedians joke about knowing they are bad related to racial issues though, and this seems to be a way to cope with finding out faults in oneself - relief humor.

There was one such joke awhile back when abuse against women was coming into greater light in America, and at the same time an Oscar-winning movie was prominent where a woman falls in love with a fish.   One night a comedian joked "we men have been so bad that women now prefer fish over us!"   lol  So you see, it's a way of acknowledging wrong-doing while trying to accept the matter at the same time.

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

I would like to see the conversation more turn toward what we think the remedies could be.

The remedy is for Whites not to think they are better than POC because they have lighter skin.  Once we stop having this bias toward POC, the bias which prevents them from acquiring equal admittance to colleges and jobs, and equal representation in government, their oppression will begin to fall away.  I think if you talk to most POC in this country they'd rather we not DO anything. If you read our History the solutions we've come up with to "help" have mainly harmed.  I trust POC to find their solutions once we stop thinking of them as inferior, although I do recognize the effectiveness of some stopgap measures remaining in place until that time comes and I hope they will continue (like affirmative action).

What is too frequently occurring in America though is based on a common notion in America and elsewhere, that if you insist on talking about racial divisions then you are the one causing the division. It's a way of basically telling the person who is rightfully complaining about an injustice to shut up.

We have to be willing to let the aggrieved people express the injustices they have lived, the pain and anger they feel, before any healing can take place. To attempt to solve the problem our way (oh just drop this racial division thing, we are all one people, I don't see color, or here I'll fix it by doing X... blah blah blah) is putting the cart before the horse, and exhibiting extreme disrespect toward those who have not had enough of a voice in this country for so many centuries.  

Edited by Luna Bliss
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I just seen the greatest T-Shirt ever while watching a N.A.A.G.A. video.. If anyone is unfamiliar with them, it's The National African American Gun Association..

on the front of the T-Shirt It looked like voter registration check boxes

The options were

 Republican

 Democrat

 Pissed Off

With the third option's box checked..

I'm getting me one if I can find it and gonna wear it with pride..:D

I think that would be a perfect name for a third party.. Imagine the diversity in that party hehehehe

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This is the only confederate statue I think should remain standing, because it so accurately reflects the psychological makeup of people who believe they are ordained by God to enslave the "inferior negroe race".   i.e., the guy looks crazy.

statue confederate crazy guy.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The options were

 Republican

 Democrat

 Pissed Off

With the third option's box checked..

I'm getting me one if I can find it and gonna wear it with pride..:D

I think that would be a perfect name for a third party.. Imagine the diversity in that party hehehehe

If you find it somewhere let me know please...    :)

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10 hours ago, Mollymews said:

 

articles, blogs, posts, vids, interviews, etc from majoritarian people about situations that overly-benefit the majority, and do not propose a remedy are the ultimate form of self-serving penitence suffering. Made even more penitent-pure by simply proposing that the remedy is for majoritarians to be better people. Lets make it about my perception of your and mine own personal failure to be a better person, and how we can be better

This is somewhat what the term 'White Fragility' captures.

Anytime we begin to discuss issues of racism and injustice someone from the 'majority' has to step in and either say "but I'm not like that" or "but not all white people" or "well some of [ insert oppressed group ] are also bad/racist/etc. or they step in with a personal "all about me" story that counter-punches the systemetic issue...

Majoritarian folks are so used to everything in existence being framed from a perspective that centers them as a character in the narrative and tells the story in a way they can relate to, that when they encounter "someone else's story" they need to 'steal it' and cast themselves as the "last samurai" in the drama...

 

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8 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Anytime we begin to discuss issues of racism and injustice someone from the 'majority' has to step in and

Luckily for humanity..that "majority" is shifting.  REAL SOON NOW we will have a "majority minority", at least in the US.  I celebrate the closeness of that day!

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