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4 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

The War of Northern Aggression, they call it. I'm told it was a stalemate. 

Sadly the last sentence of your joke is actually kinda right.

There's no other way to explain Jim Crowe, anti-miscegenation laws, share-cropping, thousands of lynchings by mobs now known as "the police", the Klan (now known as 'very fine people' but until recently simply called militias or just "the police"), formerly de-jure but now still de-facto segregation, forcing people into Projects, mass incarceration (which removes voting rights and allows for slavery - prisoners can be used as slave labor), and all these confederate monuments and flags than to acknowledge that after defeating them, the North decided the South had actually won...

 

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Anyway, I'm interested in this "Chinese privilege" you mentioned awhile back, where some were claiming the Chinese in Singapore are privileged and have been influenced by claims of 'white privilege' in the US, and how or why this felt silly to you. I see from a bit of research that Chinese make up 74% in Singapore, and I can see the remainder would also have darker skin, so am wondering how your situation differs from the US.

From a cursory search I found a student research paper from the UK citing there are racial problems there. Is it fairly accurate?
https://www.ukessays.com/essays/sociology/examining-prejudice-and-discrimination-in-singapore-sociology-essay.php

That paper touches on a wide range of issues, across a number of countries, all of which (I keep saying this) are complex. If you are really interested in digging into Singapore history, I suggest starting here:  http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history. Then move on to oral history, from all ethnicities, and hear in their own words. Singapore also has a sizeable foreign population, many living here for decades or entire lifetimes.

About the privilege thing: Singapore is a multicultural place, and the laws reflect this. These laws are strict about attacks aimed at any one race, or religion, and the laws are applied equally. It is not ok to attack the majority ethnicity either. 

I think of it this way: if someone looks at another group and says "they have privilege" why not drill down to exactly why that is? Did they finish school? to what level? what did their parents work as? did they have a stable place to live? did any laws prevent them from working, studying or living in good conditions? Until you can define it, it's merely pointing fingers based on skin colour and assumptions. How is being reductive going to help anything? I know how the argument goes - 'But the poor Chinese person still is more privileged than the poor Indian person' - Rubbish I say. It just doesn't bear scrutiny when you look at real living breathing complicated humans, and not stereotypes.

Now, I'll add - this is a small country. It is easier to drill down than in a huge, diverse place like the US. Maybe you need to take some shortcuts. But I still believe, unless you really investigate, listen to people and address the root issues, you won't effect lasting change.

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11 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thanks...am watching the one about Lozen now. My mother grew up in that area near where Geronimo made his last stand. Love Lucy Lawless, the Xena of years past who narrates, remember her from ages ago and how apropos that she would narrate a series about warrior women.

* Found it @ Amazon Prime, and higher quality.

The 'We Shall Remain' series looks good, but too expensive to watch now   :(  I do wonder if I watched some of it 10 years ago when American Experience was playing on PBS.

I'll see if I can find it for you..

I found it before where they had all the episodes that you could watch on the net..

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

prisoners can be used as slave labor

This should be done away with.  

Most "crimes" today I'd call "petty" and most involve drugs or alcohol when someone is not in their right mind because they are in a high state of poisoning.  And, even the "petty" stealing is considered drug related.  

I live in a war zone of drugs called "the drug war" and I am always wondering who puts the drugs here in the first place?  Someone who wanted the lower classes to take it in order to control them or enslave them?   There are whites in the lower classes too.  But, drugs can destroy the lives of all classes.  Drugs - the equal opportunity destroyer.  

My sister before she went into her deep depression of nearly eight years and wouldn't speak, wouldn't eat, wouldn't drink, wouldn't move...one of the last things she said to me is "people are evil".  If someone, like the government, put drugs here in the hopes it would keep us down and enslaved, we need help to get rid of these drugs.   The drugs are worthless.  We need freedom from them already!    But, it never seems to change.  I think the governments put the drugs here and that is evil.  

I think these petty drug crimes should not result in prison either but rather treatment centers.  

I think my sister has serious PTSD and that's why she said "people are evil".  This is the sister who was beaten by the out of uniform police officer along with her son.  

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8 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

About the privilege thing: Singapore is a multicultural place, and the laws reflect this. These laws are strict about attacks aimed at any one race, or religion, and the laws are applied equally. It is not ok to attack the majority ethnicity either. 

I think of it this way: if someone looks at another group and says "they have privilege" why not drill down to exactly why that is? Did they finish school? to what level? what did their parents work as? did they have a stable place to live? did any laws prevent them from working, studying or living in good conditions? Until you can define it, it's merely pointing fingers based on skin colour and assumptions. How is being reductive going to help anything? I know how the argument goes - 'But the poor Chinese person still is more privileged than the poor Indian person' - Rubbish I say. It just doesn't bear scrutiny when you look at real living breathing complicated humans, and not stereotypes.

From what I understand about your country so far it seems your conflicts there relate more to ethnicity (learned behavior,culture) vs the racial issues (biological factors, skin tone) now taking center stage in America.

But back to America, I don't doubt for a second that certain conditions within any person's life (as you put this "Did they finish school? to what level? what did their parents work as? did they have a stable place to live? did any laws prevent them from working, studying or living in good conditions?") contribute immensely to the quality of that person's life. But you are ignoring the racial factors which can contribute to the problems you've stated. In this present time, in America, we are finally addressing racial issues in a prominent way again, something we've needed to do since the Civil Rights Acts of the 60's, and before that the Civil War era which began the movement toward viewing Blacks as equal to Whites.

I don't get a sense you really understand the prejudice which still exists today for POC in America on account of skin color. You can really only glean this from the many experiences and links people have posted on this thread, or through your own research where you can read the thoughts and experiences of POC in America. One such example comes to mind that expresses the attitude we have toward Blacks very clearly. It was a link someone posted where a Black youth who has been one of the rare Blacks who lived among wealthy Whites his whole life goes to to a bar one night with his White friend. The Black youth comments to his friend that he's interested in a pretty Black woman entering the bar. His White friend says something like "oh you don't need to go after her, you could get a White girl". Just this simple statement from his friend indicates the common belief that many have in this country -- that Whites are more valued, the better choice.

This attitude -- that Whites are better -- is what fuels the disadvantages POC endure in this country. Because what is deemed 'best' will always be chosen first -- for employment, housing, college admittance, and all the other privileges a civilized society enjoys.

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12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I question whether the experience of the poor black is much different from the poor white. Is the experience of the middle class black much different from the middle class white? I haven't seen much difference and have lived in both those economic states. I have also had a wild youth which though I thankfully survived, also showed me that my "whiteness" didn't mean squat when it came to not being beat up by police in a late night empty subway car by 4 policemen, given the maximum sentence every time I faced a judge, overdoses, DUI's, profiling etc.

Makes me wonder if these white people who think their color has given them some sort of privilege are just nice people who had a reasonable upbringing, in a nice neighborhood, did their schoolwork and went to college and started their careers without any major run in's with drinking, drugging or other dysfunction and now comparing their "normal" lives with the often dramatized stories of the underprivileged. Start doing those sorts of things and you will quickly realize that there is no magical white get out of jail free card unless you have a good lawyer and even then it will only go so far.

I'm sorry but this just reads to me like "what about meeee, the poor white person who had troubles too!!!", without taking the time to understand the specific pain those affected by racial discrimination endure. White privilege doesn't mean a White person never has any pain, or that they couldn't be far worse off overall than a specific Black person who might be doing fine in society -- it only means that had the White person been born Black they would have been forced to endure being thought of as a 2nd class citizen on top of it all, and all the discrimination which follows this perception.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm sorry but this just reads to me like "what about meeee, the poor white person who had troubles too!!!", without taking the time to understand the specific pain those affected by racial discrimination endure. White privilege doesn't mean a White person never has any pain, or that they couldn't be far worse off overall than a specific Black person who might be doing fine in society -- it only means that had the White person been born Black they would have had to endure being thought of as a 2nd class citizen on top of it all, and that they would have had to endure the discrimination which follows this perception.

Probably more whites are in rehab too.   White people are assumed to be more "delicate" and to have "delicate conditions".  This is also something to be considered that needs changing.    In regards to drugs or alcohol, the white sent to rehab, the POC sent to prison?   If this is the case, it's disgusting.  I'm just been disgusted with the whole thing in regards to looking at Europe's and the United State's past.   I see some of how my sister became so seriously depressed by all of it.   White people are in some ways "babied" too because of this presumption they are of frail and delicate conditions.   

 

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12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is interesting that when I post links to talks by black people who don't see the racism you claim, they are Uncle Tom's or black conservatives.

I don't know about Uncle Tom's, but I have actually researched some of the Black people you have posted who dismiss racial prejudice as a primary factor in the problems many Blacks face. They are always Conservatives -- it's stated in their bio, and in the organizations they belong to. Conservatives overall feel the individual is responsible for their problems and if they can even admit that a society, a group of people, exists beyond the individual they minimize any influence on individuals from that society. In other words, they like to think the individual is the sole cause of everything and has total control.  It's the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' mentality, and if you can't then you are solely to blame and attempting to play the victim when stating forces outside yourself which are also contributing to your problems -- and even Black conservatives are true to form in their political perception.

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5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

In regards to drugs or alcohol, the white sent to rehab, the POC sent to prison?   If this is the case, it's disgusting.  I'm just been disgusted with the whole thing in regards to looking at Europe's and the United State's past.   I see some of how my sister became so seriously depressed by all of it.    

Seeing reality can be dangerous   :(

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9 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

But I still believe, unless you really investigate, listen to people and address the root issues, you won't effect lasting change.

What is the root issue of the multi-billion dollar industry known as "skin lightening products", a global phenomenon, and a problem in Singapore too?  Having lighter skin is thought to be better than having darker skin, and having a lighter skin confers privileges all over the world -- better prospects for marriage, for employment, among other privileges.

The abuse of colonialism caused this shame of darker skins -- caused POC to feel they could only have a decent life if they became like the Whites who dominated them and had all the power for so many years.

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1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I'm just been disgusted with the whole thing in regards to looking at Europe's and the United State's past.

When times get tough it's time to SHOP!!!    I want some of those tumblers for my patio:

https://thedixieshop.com/

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1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

In regards to drugs or alcohol, the white sent to rehab, the POC sent to prison?

Basically yes.

In blatent form:

Crack epidemic was about crime and gangs.

The current Opioid epidemic is about psychological trauma from a changing job environment and medical over-prespription.

We should note that... the folks who got on Crack largely got there because of depression and desperation from jobs being pulled out of minority communities, or to take things like pain or war injuries (Vietnam) and industrial accidents away.

Same fact patterns... different race being predominantly hit.

 

 

Projects were created to revitalize the economies of working and middle class black and hispanic communities - because revitalize meant clearing us out...

GI Bill was created to revitalize the economy of working and middle class white communities ravaged by the depression. It was done using the massive war chest of WWII and the fact that the cities had been rebuilt by black and latino labor shipped in during the war effort. We make a hero of Rosy The Riveter, but ignore all the POC who worked in those plants with her as if they never existed...

Note that GI Bill benefits for education and housing excluded blacks, asian, and latino veterans. It was largely a white only benefit until 1965 by virtue of banks being told to deny the loans and payouts to non-whites. This is kinda where Caesar Chavez comes into things - as a decorated WWII veteran.

Reservation system was created to 'save' the destitute Native Populations after a successful genocide... because they needed to be "managed" as a people "not genetically capable" of handling their own affairs - a set of logic later used when the Projects were made by first taking away land ownership from blacks and latinos... (when I noted how in Peru the Conquistadors are heroes... it's connected to them still treating the Inca; my cousins, with this kind of brutality. It's only in the last few years that suddenly the Inca language, Quechua, has been declared a national language that must be taught in schools, and only in the last 20 years or so that forced sterilization of Inca/Quechua women has ended).

And Chinatowns... same story...

 

At every turn when tragedy strikes one race gets actual help, all the others get "managed". That is one of many of the core pillars of systemic racism.

 

These days media and politicians spend a lot of time talking about swing voters in the rustbelt - who lost their jobs to automation and need help. Yet I can walk through Oakland, Richmond CA, Pittsburg CA and more and see black and latino communities who lost their jobs to the exact same thing... and they're being treated like a criminal problem or people that just 'failed to keep up with gentrification because of their own failure'... And it's funny how those 'lost their jobs to automation' stories always drive AROUND Detroit (a mostly black city) rather than through it... Detroit only comes back to the story when they want to talk about incompetent city management and dysfunctional communities that failed to adapt... ie: they get blame, the others in the rust belt get help.

So this didn't end with the 65 Civil Rights Act...

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

At every turn one race gets actual help, all the others get "managed". That is one of many of the core pillars of systemic racism.

Your whole post is tragic.  But, sad, even more, is that "management" used to include white women too.  White women were also deemed to be incompetent nor able to handle their own affairs.  Some rare women excelled irregardless so I'm speaking in general terms.  What you are describing is the "white man's privilege".  The white man was capable.  All others needed management.  

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18 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Note that GI Bill benefits for education and housing excluded blacks, asian, and latino veterans. It was largely a white only benefit until 1965 by virtue of banks being told to deny the loans and payouts to non-whites. This is kinda where Caesar Chavez comes into things - as a decorated WWII veteran.

Was trying to edit this in but couldn't.  

The GI Bill and it's discrimination was brought up in another thread.   I think there is a lawsuit in regards to the GI Bill for POC but I think the government may have immunity in regards to lawsuits.  Qualified immunity we are trying to over-turn as far as police but for the rest of the government and their immunity against lawsuits, I just don't know.  I think POC should pursue it though.  

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11 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Your whole post is tragic.  But, sad, even more, is that "management" used to include white women too.  White women were also deemed to be incompetent or able to handle their own affairs.  Some rare women excelled irregardless so I'm speaking in general terms.  What you are describing is the "white man's privilege".  The white man was capable.  All others needed management.  

Pretty much yes. This is what makes it all the more extremely frustrating when you realize that most racist violence against blacks begins with what we now call a 'Karen' or a 'Becky' - a white woman making a false accusation. And that one of the saddest takeaway of the suffrage movement was that they were extremely racist and worked to specifically exclude women of color. To this day feminist groups will speak over or around women of color rather than to or with. That lack of solidarity ends up really damaging the ability to get results.

(As a mixed race person, Solidarity is like my key talking point... both on race and gender - I see people dividing up their corner of the jail cell rather than working together to break down the door... and when they're ALL your kin it's just frustrating to look at your cousins on the left and your cousins on the right and you sisters by your side and ask to the just stop it and work together, only to be ignored...)

 

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32 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Was trying to edit this in but couldn't.  

The GI Bill and it's discrimination was brought up in another thread.   I think there is a lawsuit in regards to the GI Bill for POC but I think the government may have immunity in regards to lawsuits.  Qualified immunity we are trying to over-turn as far as police but for the rest of the government and their immunity against lawsuits, I just don't know.  I think POC should pursue it though.  

They'll likely just argue it's too far back now anyway... this is one the points that comes up in talk of reparations.

I myself did benefit from the GI Bill, and have a nice home in the Bay Area as well as a Juris Doctorate degree as a result of it. But the point in time when the American Middle Class was created was the post WWII era - when the nation turned it's poor masses of workers and farmers into what we're losing now... and during that key point in history, a whole lot of people were intentionally excluded.

 

Oh and... they don't "help" the white man because they identify with him more... read Ibram Kendi's book on the history of American Racism... the first slave revolt in the colonies was black slaves and white sharecroppers uniting together... the land owning class realized that they could make one dog put the other dog down... and that trick still works to this day...

- This actually helps illustrate how artificial racism is. See it's natural to fear or hate distant strangers so they convinced people to hate the Native population with ease. But the put the blacks inside the plantation and even inside their homes - and when people are living side by side fear and distrust eventually break down and people see themselves as connected, bonds, friendship, and love grow.

So there in the early days of slavery - the white and black regular population had to learn they were not kin in the cause of life.

It took the wealthy class centuries to manufacture a system that can overpower human nature and endure through time to even a century and a half past the institution is was created to uphold...

Manufacturing racism was a very intentionally designed process... for the sole purpose of making an unpalatable product (mass-market human torture/slavery) sell-able. Long past it's expiration date, the packaging is still in the water...

 

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2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Manufacturing racism was a very intentionally designed process... for the sole purpose of making an unpalatable product (mass-market human torture/slavery) sell-able. Long past it's expiration date, the packaging is still in the water...

Well I guess the fact that race and racial prejudice was created only proves it can be undone! I was reading about how the notion of a White race was created at the same time, so as to differentiate from the Black race they wanted to dominate.

I remember a strange family gathering long ago, and there was an older relative from the South there who had some Baptist religious influence during her upbringing. At one point she kind of lapsed into what almost appeared to be a trance, like some Youtube 'medium' who channels long-departed loved ones and spirits, and began saying things in a low, weird tone, things like "the races should not mix". The older kids just looked at her out of the corner of our eyes with a 'wtf!' expression on our faces. It really was like she'd been brainwashed and suddenly some kind of conditioning from her younger days was erupting. I think a little alcohol may have been involved at the time too...lol.

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43 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well I guess the fact that race and racial prejudice was created only proves it can be undone! I was reading about how the notion of a White race was created at the same time, so as to differentiate from the Black race they wanted to dominate.

I remember a strange family gathering long ago, and there was an older relative from the South there who had some Baptist religious influence during her upbringing. At one point she kind of lapsed into what almost appeared to be a trance, like some Youtube 'medium' who channels long-departed loved ones and spirits, and began saying things in a low, weird tone, things like "the races should not mix". The older kids just looked at her out of the corner of our eyes with a 'wtf!' expression on our faces. It really was like she'd been brainwashed and suddenly some kind of conditioning from her younger days was erupting. I think a little alcohol may have been involved at the time too...lol.

Was it tongues?

That's usually what the baptist call something like that..But a lot of times it's more just babble..

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well I guess the fact that race and racial prejudice was created only proves it can be undone! I was reading about how the notion of a White race was created at the same time, so as to differentiate from the Black race they wanted to dominate.

Pretty much yes. You will note that over time the definition of the 'White Race' has been an extremely mobile target.

Why does it not include people from India and Iran - other than skin tone India Indians are likely closer to Europeans than any other group (though I am also aware that this is a close echo of a neo-nazi claim for the origin of the word 'Aryan' so I am not sure of this statement)... and then people in the Middle East are just 'Europeans that go to a different church.

White has basically been defined along the terms of whoever are seen as the current political allies of the person claiming or defining it... which is why for a long time Irish were not considered White by 'WASP' people despite the fact that the difference between the two is basically a few miles of water and... what church they go to... kinda like Turks and Greeks...

Race in general is a biological fiction. Sort of. See, the entire genetic diversity of every single last human being who is neither African nor Native Australian is basically as diverse as '5 random guys from the same exact town in the middle of Ethiopia'

- We might all look pretty different at a skin level, but everyone who is not an African is basically a clone of each other...

But that then gets people to the nasty conclusion that maybe they can say 'African and non-African' but even there there is not that much genetic difference. And even there it would also be trying to say 'these 5 random guys from Ethiopia are a different race from the entire rest of humanity'...

 

But race is also dead real... because at a culture and political level it is something concrete and has become something deadly...

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21 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

She defined it well enough for where I am at but at the same time she pointed out that those with white guilt and yet still feel superior, may have a harder time with being able to recognize that they really are not privileged.

21 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Can you rephrase that?

At around 2:57 she mentions that maybe white sjw's have this white guilt because they really do feel a sense of superiority but basing it on an illusory privilege.

 

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9 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I was going by some friends of mine that were telling me about their grandmother..

They are southern baptists.. she would talk in tongue..They said her church is wild..Snakes and everything.. hehehehe

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22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Ahhh, so now we see your fears...this evil socialism.  And all this "complaining" of Blacks is really an effort to usher in a more socialist state and has nothing to do with the fact that we've made them the latrine of America?

Your mind was made up from the get-go, from your very first posts. You don't believe people are still prejudiced against Blacks today.

You're wrong, and if you talk to the majority of Blacks they will tell you how they've been discriminated against or looked down on, and scientific tests in the Social Sciences prove the bias still exists today, as well as our monuments to white supremacy we are so reluctant to take down or rename.  You can dig up all these Youtube exceptions you want, or a minority of Black conservatives, but that doesn't change reality.

* You didn't answer me...do you live in the US?

I didn't say the complaining of the Blacks was an effort to usher in a socialist state (though considering BLM's stated objectives that could be argued) but wondered if it was yours.

Yes, I'm sure there is still predjudice against Blacks, just as there is against whites, asians and aboriginals, as there is against skinny people, fat ones. short and tall ones. The list of potential discriminations are as varied as there are people on the face of the Earth. 

As far as the Youtube videos I come across, I don't have to dig for them. Seem to be quite a few out there, even more then one's focused on the racism. What they point out is that perhaps there is more then one solution to racism. And honestly, I think it is too important of an issue to drag it down with petty politics.

 

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