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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Very informative, and I love the cited poem in the 2nd one by Langston Hughes, and particularly this one verse within it:

He's up to 4 of them now, or maybe more - youtube showed me 4 and I realize I failed to see if there are more.

 

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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interesting read here. Descendants of confederate military officers talking about the legacies of their forbears as they see it

a majority prefer that their ancestors names be removed from public display. That while history can't be undone, their ancestors fought for the wrong cause. That the Union fought for the right cause, and they find it disconcerting that their ancestors are championed by the Union for having fought for values which were then and now anti-ethical to Union values

a minority prefer that their ancestors continue to be championed by the Union for a variety of reasons. From personal familial pride to the thought that their ancestor helped to shape what the USA is today for good or bad

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/07/01/rename-confederate-generals-military-bases-341278

 

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7 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Isn't it weird how we always cite Hitler as being so evil when he got his ideas from bigots in the US whose ideas and monuments have not been completely tossed into the mud.  The monuments of the Nazi's were taken down ages ago, but we still have not removed all our statues glorifying the egregious practices of slavery and genocide.

It's simply an abomination that Indigenous and Black history is not taught in our schools too.

There is a really good documentary that gives a different perspective of how this nation was born.. It's called, We shall remain..

It's not really in depth but gives a good view and perspective from the other side.. It goes all the way from the mayflower to the second wounded knee..

I think you would really enjoy it..

I only wish they added Lozen in there when they were on the part with Geronimo..She was such a key part of the success they had..

A lot of heroes in this nation are from the perspective of the sides we are on.. When people look at Lincoln they see a great man and a hero..

Looking from an indigenous perspective and the things he did, you'd be hard pressed to find many that see him as a hero and a great man. He was still a leader of the invasion of the west..

There wouldn't really be any Monuments left in DC if we were to start tearing them down that glorify those things.

I'm really not going to start rolling on  in that area, but just thought perspective is an important thing to consider..I'm sure you have and I'm not trying to show you the way or anything like that..I know you research a lot..

I just sometimes have to say things out loud for myself I guess hehehe

 

Aaaanyways..

I think you would really like this documentary they did of Lozen.. Out of all my Heroes, She is one of the most amazing..

I really think you will enjoy it..

I'll just link it that way it will hopefully go into the next part since i couldn't find the full version..This is also not as in depth, but gives a really good view of her life..

ETA: instead I'll link them all..

Lozen

Lozen pt2

Lozen pt3

Lozen pt4

Lozen pt5

Well I'm off to bed..Work has me about as worn out as worn out gets.. hehehe

Have a nice night, or day,which ever it is by you..

Edited by Ceka Cianci
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5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just Protestants? Not Catholics too?

Only slightly kidding. I do realize the issue. I just happen to go to a LGBT+ church (protestant but non-denominational) that is NOT racist or white supremacist. So it's easy for me to forget that "churches are bad". lulz

Not Catholic, no.  This country was founded on Protestantism by the English who were "reforming".  Actually, there was a split in the 1600's or so where the English Protestants broke off from the Catholic church because they wanted their clergymen to marry.  Catholics remain with celibate priests.  This was the main reasons for the split - Protestants at the time wanted married clergy, the Roman Catholic church did not - it wanted celibate priests.  

It has to do with Puritanical America.  You can read the Wiki  on it.  The Catholics, however, were conquering the South America's, tragically, very tragically.  It was Spain on the one side and the English on the other [mostly].  

 

 

Puritans were dissatisfied with the limited extent of the English Reformation and with the Church of England's toleration of certain practices associated with the Roman Catholic Church. They formed and identified with various religious groups advocating greater purity of worship and doctrine, as well as personal and corporate piety. Puritans adopted a Reformed theology and, in that sense, were Calvinists (as were many of their earlier opponents). In church polity, some advocated separation from all other established Christian denominations in favour of autonomous gathered churches. These Separatist and independent strands of Puritanism became prominent in the 1640s, when the supporters of a presbyterian polity in the Westminster Assembly were unable to forge a new English national church.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritans

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25 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Actually, there was a split in the 1600's or so where the English Protestants broke off from the Catholic church because they wanted their clergymen to marry.

   1534. And it was mostly to do with the pope refusing to allow Henry VIII a divorce. But Protestantism had already been on the rise for a while in many parts of Europe, with various kingdoms adopting it for various reasons .. Like Sweden in 1527, which was largely to banish the Catholic clergy and take their land and assets. 

   . . . Carry on.

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21 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   1534. And it was mostly to do with the pope refusing to allow Henry VIII a divorce. But Protestantism had already been on the rise for a while in many parts of Europe, with various kingdoms adopting it for various reasons .. Like Sweden in 1527, which was largely to banish the Catholic clergy and take their land and assets. 

   . . . Carry on.

I've heard some of the Catholic/Protestant "craziness" that went on in Europe in centuries past. 

The reason it's important to the history of the Civil War and the South, is it was about religious beliefs in owning slaves.  Plus, I can only venture to guess they thought of themselves as "righteous" while, in their eyes, indigenous people were "savages".  

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21 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

-

 

After listening to this gentleman, one the recommended videos to play next was this woman who I think gives some good rebuttals to his talk.

(for those so inclined, some of the comments below it are insightful too)

 

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Posted (edited)

There's always one fool out there willing to push their own people into the gas chamber...

And there's always one Nazi out there seeking to hold up that fool and yell out that 'see, they're making it all up; no problem here'...

Rather than key in on that one fool, you should consider the masses of people speaking to their lived experience of the opposite.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

this woman who I think gives some good rebuttals to his talk.

This woman doesn't even define white privilege correctly.  Between this video you posted and your explanation as to why slaves were thought to feel less pain I'm starting to think there's 'other' reasons you didn't get callbacks on your job apps we discussed, having nothing to do with your ethnic-sounding name.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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14 hours ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Apparently the Confederacy won the Civil War.

The War of Northern Aggression, they call it. I'm told it was a stalemate. 

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1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

religious beliefs in owning slaves

A couple years back we had a good discussion on Confederate flags here, and I went into one of those deep dives into the past, ending up at some website where photocopies of letters by Confederate soldiers were displayed. They all spoke of God being on their side and that slavery was ordained by God, and so they were on a special mission to win the war and put slaves in their proper place.

This is an interesting site discussing religion during Civil War times:

https://classroom.synonym.com/religious-factors-of-the-civil-war-12087212.html

Edited by Luna Bliss
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4 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

ETA: instead I'll link them all.. (Lozen documentary and the We Shall Remain Series)

Thanks...am watching the one about Lozen now. My mother grew up in that area near where Geronimo made his last stand. Love Lucy Lawless, the Xena of years past who narrates, remember her from ages ago and how apropos that she would narrate a series about warrior women.

* Found it @ Amazon Prime, and higher quality.

The 'We Shall Remain' series looks good, but too expensive to watch now   :(  I do wonder if I watched some of it 10 years ago when American Experience was playing on PBS.

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7 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:
9 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Very informative, and I love the cited poem in the 2nd one by Langston Hughes, and particularly this one verse within it:

He's up to 4 of them now, or maybe more - youtube showed me 4 and I realize I failed to see if there are more.

He really is an amazing speaker and so perfect for the task he's undertaken.

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21 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

There's always one fool out there willing to push their own people into the gas chamber...

And there's always one Nazi out there seeking to hold up that fool and yell out that 'see, they're making it all up; no problem here'...

Rather than key in on that one fool, you should consider the masses of people speaking to their lived experience of the opposite.

 

The way I understand her, she is pointing out how not to walk into the gas chambers voluntarily by taking on a victim mentality. She along with some others I have posted already, are better examples of what it is to be "woke" as originally defined:  "Stay woke became a watch word in parts of the black community for those who were self-aware, questioning the dominant paradigm and striving for something better", the dominant paradigm being that which the masses of people you refer to as holding on to.

 

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18 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

The way I understand her, she is pointing out how not to walk into the gas chambers voluntarily by taking on a victim mentality. She along with some others I have posted already, are better examples of what it is to be "woke" as originally defined:  "Stay woke became a watch word in parts of the black community for those who were self-aware, questioning the dominant paradigm and striving for something better", the dominant paradigm being that which the masses of people you refer to as holding on to.

No, the dominant paradigm has been that Blacks are not oppressed any longer and that we do not have white supremacy in America anymore.  To allow this perception to prevail and not confront white supremacy would make them a victim.  Fighting the prejudice is reclaiming their power and is making them victims no longer.   1500 confederate statues are coming dooowwwwn, and hopefully the military bases named after white supremacists too...  unless trump prevents it, that fool:

On Tuesday night, Trump tweeted: “I will Veto the Defense Authorization Bill if the Elizabeth 'Pocahontas' Warren (of all people!) Amendment, which will lead to the renaming (plus other bad things!) of Fort Bragg, Fort Robert E. Lee, and many other Military Bases from which we won Two World Wars, is in the Bill!”

 

trump-mouth-gty-680x430.jpg

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31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This woman doesn't even define white privilege correctly.  Between this video you posted and your explanation as to why slaves were thought to feel less pain I'm starting to think there's 'other' reasons you didn't get callbacks on your job apps we discussed, having nothing to do with your ethnic-sounding name.

She defined it well enough for where I am at but at the same time she pointed out that those with white guilt and yet still feel superior, may have a harder time with being able to recognize that they really are not privileged.

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2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:
39 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This woman doesn't even define white privilege correctly.  Between this video you posted and your explanation as to why slaves were thought to feel less pain I'm starting to think there's 'other' reasons you didn't get callbacks on your job apps we discussed, having nothing to do with your ethnic-sounding name.

She defined it well enough for where I am at but at the same time she pointed out that those with white guilt and yet still feel superior, may have a harder time with being able to recognize that they really are not privileged.

Can you rephrase that?

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58 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

After listening to this gentleman, one the recommended videos to play next was this woman who I think gives some good rebuttals to his talk.

The YouTube algorithm knows what you want to see.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, the dominant paradigm has been that Blacks are not oppressed any longer and that we do not have white supremacy in America anymore.  To allow this perception to prevail and not confront it would make them a victim.  Fighting the prejudice is reclaiming their power is making them victims no longer.   1500 confederate statues are coming dooowwwwn, and hopefully the military bases named after white supremacists too...  unless trump prevents it, that fool:

 

You perhaps misunderstand. The word "woke" is from the black community referring to their own view of the paradigm, not what the rest of the population may or may not think.

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1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:
8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, the dominant paradigm has been that Blacks are not oppressed any longer and that we do not have white supremacy in America anymore.  To allow this perception to prevail and not confront it would make them a victim.  Fighting the prejudice is reclaiming their power is making them victims no longer.   1500 confederate statues are coming dooowwwwn, and hopefully the military bases named after white supremacists too...  unless trump prevents it, that fool:

 

You perhaps misunderstand. The word "woke" is from the black community referring to their own view of the paradigm, not what the rest of the population may or may not think.

Are you in the US?

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10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

   1500 confederate statues are coming dooowwwwn, and hopefully the military bases named after white supremacists too...  unless trump prevents it, that fool:

On Tuesday night, Trump tweeted: “I will Veto the Defense Authorization Bill if the Elizabeth 'Pocahontas' Warren (of all people!) Amendment, which will lead to the renaming (plus other bad things!) of Fort Bragg, Fort Robert E. Lee, and many other Military Bases from which we won Two World Wars, is in the Bill!”

I have seriously been wondering whether your main concern here is the actual discrimination of Blacks and other minorities or whether this whole thing is just a convenient piggyback ride to political upheaval and the ushering in of a more socialist state?

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24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:
37 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

   1500 confederate statues are coming dooowwwwn, and hopefully the military bases named after white supremacists too...  unless trump prevents it, that fool:

On Tuesday night, Trump tweeted: “I will Veto the Defense Authorization Bill if the Elizabeth 'Pocahontas' Warren (of all people!) Amendment, which will lead to the renaming (plus other bad things!) of Fort Bragg, Fort Robert E. Lee, and many other Military Bases from which we won Two World Wars, is in the Bill!”

I have seriously been wondering whether your main concern here is the actual discrimination of Blacks and other minorities or whether this whole thing is just a convenient piggyback ride to political upheaval and the ushering in of a more socialist state?

Ahhh, so now we see your fears...this evil socialism.  And all this "complaining" of Blacks is really an effort to usher in a more socialist state and has nothing to do with the fact that we've made them the latrine of America?

Your mind was made up from the get-go, from your very first posts. You don't believe people are still prejudiced against Blacks today.

You're wrong, and if you talk to the majority of Blacks they will tell you how they've been discriminated against or looked down on, and scientific tests in the Social Sciences prove the bias still exists today, as well as our monuments to white supremacy we are so reluctant to take down or rename.  You can dig up all these Youtube exceptions you want, or a minority of Black conservatives, but that doesn't change reality.

* You didn't answer me...do you live in the US?

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@Arielle PopstarYou can't just suddenly define what woke means for everyone else, twist it to fit your narrative, when it already has a meaning:

"Woke means being conscious of racial discrimination in society and other forms of oppression and injustice. In mainstream use, woke can also more generally describe someone or something as being "with it."

Where does woke come from?

 

Figurative woke—being socially and politically awake, or aware—starts in emerging in Black English at least by the 1940s. A 1943 article in The Atlantic quoted a black United Mine Workers official from 1940 playing with woke in a metaphor for social justice: “Waking up is a damn sight than going to sleep, but we’ll stay woke up longer.”

By the 1960s, woke could more generally mean “well-informed” in Black English, but it still strongly aligned with political awareness, especially in the context of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950–60s and appearing in the phrase stay woke. The term was notable enough to prompt a 1962 New York Times article commenting on black slang, titled “If You’re Woke You Dig It.”

woke.png

After Trayvon Martin, a young unarmed black man, was shot dead in February 2012, many in the black community issued calls to stay woke to the discrimination and injustice black people face in the US, particularly in the form of police brutality.

Especially under the hashtag “#staywoke” on social media, woke took off in 2014 with the Black Lives Matter movement, ignited by the tragic shooting of two other young, unarmed black men by police officers. Among activists, woke and stay woke were cries not just to be aware of racial injustice, but to organize and mobilize to do something about it.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/woke/

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15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Ahhh, so now we see your fears...this evil socialism.  And all this "complaining" of Blacks is really an effort to usher in a more socialist state and has nothing to do with the fact that we've made them the latrine of America?

Your mind was made up from the get-go, from your very first posts. You don't believe people are still prejudiced against Blacks today.

You're wrong, and if you talk to most Blacks they will tell you how they've been discriminated against, and scientific tests in the Social Sciences prove the bias still exists today, as well as our monuments to white supremacy.  You can dig up all these Youtube exceptions you want, or a minority of Black conservatives, but that doesn't change reality.

You assume a lot, so much for an open mind. No wonder you can only see what you have already decided to see.

I question whether the experience of the poor black is much different from the poor white. Is the experience of the middle class black much different from the middle class white? I haven't seen much difference and have lived in both those economic states. I have also had a wild youth which though I thankfully survived, also showed me that my "whiteness" didn't mean squat when it came to not being beat up by police in a late night empty subway car by 4 policemen, given the maximum sentence every time I faced a judge, overdoses, DUI's, profiling etc.

Makes me wonder if these white people who think their color has given them some sort of privilege are just nice people who had a reasonable upbringing, in a nice neighborhood, did their schoolwork and went to college and started their careers without any major run in's with drinking, drugging or other dysfunction and now comparing their "normal" lives with the often dramatized stories of the underprivileged. Start doing those sorts of things and you will quickly realize that there is no magical white get out of jail free card unless you have a good lawyer and even then it will only go so far.

It is interesting that when I post links to talks by black people who don't see the racism you claim, they are Uncle Tom's or black conservatives. Ever considered that maybe they just had a fairly functional life that didn't put them in harm's way like white "privileged" people? The privilege comes from living a functional life that doesn't put you in harms way and that comes down to making wise choices. Not the color of your skin.

 

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