getting woke and SL

[Innula Zenovka]

54 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

The first two- People, in general. We, especially Americans, are blaming each other and making each other out to be enemies over stupid things like political affiliation instead of working on solutions.

Note, I'm not saying all political affiliations are good or that there aren't bad ones or anything, just that we're vilifying each other as the evil, abstract "they", which makes it infinitely harder to actually come together and solve issues.

That last we was definitely directed at this thread.

While I hesitate to disagree with someone about what's happening in their country when I don't live there and they do, I must say I don't see people blaming each other in what I read and see in the media and online.    I see people blaming particular police departments, and particular city administrations, and particular local and national politicians, and so on, but not "each other" unless it's for something the person being blamed has, in the opinion of the person apportioning blame, actually done or not done that they should have done, or not.

As to this thread, I think, rather than arguing with people, I think it might be a lot more helpful for us white folks  simply listen to what black people have to tell us, and to ask what kind of assistance and support they would most welcome (and, of course, what they'd like us to stop doing, too), either online or in specific countries and areas.

As to the concept of white privilege, I really don't see why other white people find this so threatening a concept -- all it means, as I understand it, is that if you're white in the US (or in Europe, though it may manifest itself differently in different countries) then, whatever problems you might have in your life, you don't have, on top of all these problems,  the additional problem of having to deal with them as a black person, particularly. at least in some places, if they're problems involving the police.                

That seems a simple statement of fact,  a description of a deplorable state of affairs that I would think any decent person would want to do their best to remedy.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Innula Zenovka

[Mollymews]

53 minutes ago, BelindaN said:

Just to say....I find the use of the term "white people" as a generic term to be unhelpful. In todays troubled world, these people are spread across the world with a huge range of genetics and an even greater range of cultural similarities and differences. Even across Europe, there are huge differences between "white people". And there is huge poverty and disengagement in this group.

White is a race classification used by the US government. White, Black, Asian, Hispanic being the 4 main US classifications. These have specific meanings as they relate to the USA

an example of this is here: https://www.census.gov/library/working-papers/2018/adrm/rsm2018-03.html

other countries use other official descriptors. In NZ for example the main descriptors historically are: Maori, Pacific, Asian, European. the NZ government now includes New Zealander as a ethnic classification in itself. Lots of people of all races now identify on official forms as New Zealander. In time as the generations pass then more and more people will do this 

perhaps people in the USA could advocate for the same. Have official documents include American as an ethnic identifier in its own right.  So White, Black Asian, Hispanic, American to begin with

[Talligurl]

13 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

Last time I checked, basic human rights, like dignity & respect & not being accosted &/or murdered by a bigot(s) wasn’t a matter of politics.  Standing up for the oppressed wasn’t politics.  It’s called being a decent human being.  

 

What policies are put in place to benefit the lives of minorities is politics. We live in a political climate where even questioning the effectiveness of liberal policy is labeled as racism. Lots of people believe many liberal policies are doing the black community more harm than good, but if you are white and you say this you are accused of being a racist. If you are black and you say this you are accused of selling out to the white man. This is why it is so hard to talk about racism, because free thought on the discussion of solutions is not tolerated.

[Extrude Ragu]

1 minute ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As to the concept of white privilege, I really don't see why other white people find this so threatening a concept

I think it's pretty simple. Most people have self respect and work hard, and do not want to be told how easy they have it by people who have little to no idea what their life is like and just want to lump everyone together by the color of their skin.

7 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

that automatically 'others' anyone who doesn't fit into the dominant majority

I respectfully disagree with this statement. People is a broad word that crosses all ethnicity, cultures, ideology. It is simply an acknowledgment of humanity. It's probably the most inclusive word one can use.

[LexxiXhan]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I respectfully disagree with this statement. People is a broad word that crosses all ethnicity, cultures, ideology. It is simply an acknowledgment of humanity. It's probably the most inclusive word one can use

Then how do you discuss the ways in which issues of race can impact Black and White people differently?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, LexxiXhan said:

Then how do you discuss the ways in which issues of race can impact Black and White people differently?

Maybe they don't want to discuss or acknowledge the issues.

[Extrude Ragu]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Maybe they don't want to discuss or acknowledge the issues.

Maybe you might be creating enemies between people who might otherwise discuss more respectful ways to talk about each other if you did not intervene?

[Innula Zenovka]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I think it's pretty simple. Most people have self respect and work hard, and do not want to be told how easy they have it by people who have little to no idea what their life is like and just want to lump everyone together by the color of their skin.

Quite possibly so, but I don't take someone's drawing attention to the fact that, whatever problems I may have, I don't have to worry about, for example, routine interactions with the police in the same way I would do if I were black as suggesting I have it at all "easy."      

[Pixie Kobichenko]

14 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

What policies are put in place to benefit the lives of minorities is politics. We live in a political climate where even questioning the effectiveness of liberal policy is labeled as racism. Lots of people believe many liberal policies are doing the black community more harm than good, but if you are white and you say this you are accused of being a racist. If you are black and you say this you are accused of selling out to the white man. This is why it is so hard to talk about racism, because free thought on the discussion of solutions is not tolerated.

I think you missed the point of my post you referenced.

i was responding to someone who said yay another political thread.

The OP that that individual responded to never said politics.

My point is policies won’t change mindsets.

& no amount of politicking can make for decent people.

You can’t force someone to be decent.

That comes from nurturing & education.  & sometimes, sadly, well, even the birth of new generations has not been able to cure these ills.  But we must continue to strive & be better than we were the day before.

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

 we must continue to strive & be better than we were the day before.

this ^^

[BelindaN]

If people were just people, and shared values, and got along, the world would be a better place.

Maybe its instinctive to be wary of different cultures. If our skins were all the same colour, and we all spoke the same language, the issues would still be around of privilege, poverty, and discrimination but based on something else. Look at Victorian England to see abject poverty and excessive riches.

You only have to look at the "ruling class" in the UK now to see how that works.

[Extrude Ragu]

4 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

Then how do you discuss the ways in which issues of race can impact Black and White people differently?

This is a fair question.

I think that the best approach to this is to simply talk about the statistics of how black people and other minorities might not have equal opportunities in life and how everyone, regardless of their race or color can help with that cause. I think that if we talk about it inclusively, then people will respond to it better in general.

There was a point in another thread where Luna gave me an alternative way to help, that was simply to donate to help Black kids go to school, which I was receptive of. I'm also receptive of re-thinking budget around police and better social measures, and adequently holding to account those who act on racial prejudice. What I am and I think most other 'trolls' like me opposed to is the 'Black vs White' talk that lumps all the white people in as this oppressive force and all the black people in as these poor helpless individuals. I think there's far more nuance to this and it's unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.

[Innula Zenovka]

15 minutes ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

You can’t force someone to be decent.

No, but you can reasonably expect them to behave decently in particular situations, particularly if you're paying them -- in the exercise of their official duties, for example, whether as a police officer, an employer, a mortgage lender or whatever -- and draw up policies to which they must adhere to ensure this, and then fire them or prosecute them if they don't.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Innula Zenovka

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

While I hesitate to disagree with someone about what's happening in their country when I don't live there and they do, I must say I don't see people blaming each other in what I read and see in the media and online.    I see people blaming particular police departments, and particular city administrations, and particular local and national politicians, and so on, but not "each other" unless it's for something the person being blamed has, in the opinion of the person apportioning blame, actually done or not done that they should have done, or not.

"Libtards", "Demmocommies", and "Republikklans" come to mind. I didn't just make those up.

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As to this thread, I think, rather than arguing with people, I think it might be a lot more helpful for us white folks  simply listen to what black people have to tell us, and to ask what kind of assistance and support they would most welcome (and, of course, what they'd like us to stop doing, too), either online or in specific countries and areas.

I'm all for that- but not when the message is delivered as a racist accusation.

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As to the concept of white privilege, I really don't see why other white people find this so threatening a concept -- all it means, as I understand it, is that if you're white in the US (or in Europe, though it may manifest itself differently in different countries) then, whatever problems you might have in your life, you don't have, on top of all these problems,  the additional problem of having to deal with them as a black person, particularly. at least in some places, if they're problems involving the police.                

That seems a simple statement of fact,  a description of a deplorable state of affairs that I would think any decent person would want to do their best to remedy.

Therein lies the problem.

51 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I think it's pretty simple. Most people have self respect and work hard, and do not want to be told how easy they have it by people who have little to no idea what their life is like and just want to lump everyone together by the color of their skin.

Was a great point, and I'll repeat what I've been saying. How you deliver a message is just as important as the message itself regarding the reaction you're going to get. You can't expect to get a positive reaction when you say "I want to stop racism! All you privileged, ignorant white people need to help!"

Edited June 11, 2020 by Paul Hexem

[Innula Zenovka]

9 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

How you deliver a message is just as important as the message itself regarding the reaction you're going to get. You can't expect to get a positive reaction when you say "I want to stop racism! All you privileged, ignorant white people need to help!"

How would you prefer to be asked for help in these circumstances?

[Paul Hexem]

2 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

How would you prefer to be asked for help in these circumstances?

See;

I'm already reading, reposting, donating, and in some cases literally getting directly involved. Personally, I don't need to be asked. But if I were, I'd prefer the approach I mentioned there. Share it. Share how you feel. Share solutions you think will help. Let the world know this behavior is not acceptable to you. Just don't contribute to it by being racist yourself.

[Jackson Redstar]

There are still some issue with cops - a small minority of them. Most are good. But I wonder if the thought has ever occurred maybe just stop resisting arrest? even if is a BS stop, a profiling stop, or what ever, maybe let the attorney and courts settle it ......until we can fix (or remove) the bad cops this might help in the mean time....

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

See;

I'm already reading, reposting, donating, and in some cases literally getting directly involved. Personally, I don't need to be asked. But if I were, I'd prefer the approach I mentioned there. Share it. Share how you feel. Share solutions you think will help. Let the world know this behavior is not acceptable to you. Just don't contribute to it by being racist yourself.

And who, while you've been doing this, has said to you something like this?

25 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

"I want to stop racism! All you privileged, ignorant white people need to help!"

I'm struggling to see what the problem is.   I mean, references to white privilege might make you feel uncomfortable or embarrassed at times-- they do me, sometimes, anyway -- but I doubt anyone's talking about them simply to make you or me feel bad.

Related to this (though certainly not intended as a riposte to you), I've just seen this thread on Twitter, which I found made very illuminating, though at times uncomfortable, reading, as did some of the comments

 

[Innula Zenovka]

9 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

There are still some issue with cops - a small minority of them. Most are good. But I wonder if the thought has ever occurred maybe just stop resisting arrest? even if is a BS stop, a profiling stop, or what ever, maybe let the attorney and courts settle it ......until we can fix (or remove) the bad cops this might help in the mean time....

That, of course, assumes that the charge of "resisting arrest" (for what?) is anything more than a pretext for arresting the person anyway, whether as a show of force, a punishment for being uncooperative (or lippy) in the eyes of the arresting officer, or as an excuse to get back to the nice safe police station for a bit and enjoy a coffee while processing the paperwork for the arrest.

It also assumes the attorney and courts can be trusted to resolve the matter fairly, which I think is not always the case in some areas.

 

[Dano Seale]

11 minutes ago, Jackson Redstar said:

There are still some issue with cops - a small minority of them. Most are good. But I wonder if the thought has ever occurred maybe just stop resisting arrest? even if is a BS stop, a profiling stop, or what ever, maybe let the attorney and courts settle it ......until we can fix (or remove) the bad cops this might help in the mean time....

Oh, I put that suggestion forward a couple of days ago in the other pointless thread on this subject. It didn't go down well, lol. They just turn it into "so, george resisted arrest and "got what was coming to him then?"..."why should black people have to put up with that?", and such like.  Answer is, they shouldn't have to! but unless BOTH sides of the coin adapt and change....nothing ever will.

[Luna Bliss]

27 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm already reading, reposting, donating, and in some cases literally getting directly involved. Personally, I don't need to be asked. But if I were, I'd prefer the approach I mentioned there. Share it. Share how you feel. Share solutions you think will help. Let the world know this behavior is not acceptable to you. Just don't contribute to it by being racist yourself.

Do you think you've ever done anything wrong related to these issues?  I don't mean being a racist, but have you ever been prejudiced against people who were different from you?

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do you think you've ever done anything wrong related to these issues?  I don't mean being a racist, but have you ever been prejudiced against people who were different from you?

Heck yeah, maybe they are doing all these things out of guilt, at least in part.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Innula Zenovka said:

As to the concept of white privilege, I really don't see why other white people find this so threatening a concept -- all it means, as I understand it, is that if you're white in the US (or in Europe, though it may manifest itself differently in different countries) then, whatever problems you might have in your life, you don't have, on top of all these problems,  the additional problem of having to deal with them as a black person, particularly. at least in some places, if they're problems involving the police.                

That seems a simple statement of fact,  a description of a deplorable state of affairs that I would think any decent person would want to do their best to remedy.

Yes.

As Whites we've enjoyed many privileges simply because we are White. Doesn't mean our life hasn't been difficult. It means that whatever troubles we have had as a White person it would have been far greater in many instances had we been Black.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Do you think you've ever done anything wrong related to these issues?  I don't mean being a racist, but have you ever been prejudiced against people who were different from you?

Heck yeah, maybe they are doing all these things out of guilt, at least in part.

You mean resisting descriptors such as 'white privilege'?

[Jordyn McGregor]

11 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

 

 

White person here!  When I ask anyone how they are feeling, I really want to know how they are feeling!  I'm dazzled by Academic Foxhole's mind reading abilities though since they seem to be able to tell the sentiment behind a question.