Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

so you would be aggrieved if the property was yours. But not if the property was your great-great-great-grandfathers ?

you understand why people, including yourself, are aggrieved when this happens

lets look at this generationally. At what point do we cut off restitution (or compensation) of property taken by the State since the establishment of the State. We are not talking about things that happened before this establishment. Just things that have happened since


a generational posit

suppose the property was a ring, an heirloom, which had been passed down from mother to daughter in your family for as long as anyone can remember. Then one day your grandmother turns up not happy. The ring has been taken by an agent of the State for no reason other than that they could, so they took it

you say what to your grandmother, your mother, your daughter and your granddaughter ?

do you say: Oh! well. Nevermind. It wasn't my ring. Grandma, you, Mum, my daughter and my granddaughter need to get over yourselves ?

then as time goes by your grandmother and mother die. You are now the oldest generation in the family. Your great granddaughter (of the now 6th generation since the ring was taken) says to you: Nana I know where the ring is. I am going to try and get it back

do you say: Child the ring is not yours, it was my grandmothers ?

child then says: It would have been mine had the State not taken it. I am going to try and get it back so I can give it to my daughter one day (the 7th generation). What do you say to this ?

do you just repeat yourself: Child let it go. The ring is not yours to give to your daughter - my great great granddaughter

or do you say: Child is all ancient history now, forget about it and get over yourself ?

a thing. 6 generations is 120 years. 7 generations will be 140 years. Is a long time. However is not ancient history. The ring was taken in living memory. Your living memory

your great granddaughter to aid her efforts in getting the ring back, asks you to attest in an affidavit that the ring was taken from your grandmother. What do you say to her ?

do you say: I am not going to attest to this. Let it go ?

Is this a reality you are speaking about regarding the Queen of England?

My gawd, if this becomes a reality, every Polish and Jew from 4 to 5 generations back at least could/would sue Germany and completely and totally bankrupt the whole country.  The whole European Union would go down.  Not to mention Germany stole half of Poland - most of our artworks and music and most of it's Classical music, so they owe us a freakin' fortune.  It would put them into slums.   

Edited by FairreLilette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

do you just repeat yourself: Child let it go. The ring is not yours to give to your daughter

Yes. I would think it and say it.

There is a book I am very fond of called Dream of the Red Chamber (Hong Lou Meng). It tells the story of the rise, glory days and decline of a family in 18thC China. It is in some respects autobiographical, as the author's family mansion and goods built up over lifetimes were confiscated by the state (emperor at the time). 

It resonates with people who lost their family homes and goods during China's modern political transitions, and in one translation of this work the translator spoke to a man who took him on a walk past his former home in Beijing. He asked this man, do you resent it, that the state took your home? The man replies, it did make me very sad for many years, but now I just laugh.

I would want to pass on this message to a younger generation: Enjoy the good in life, grieve a little when it goes, but then, just laugh. 

 

ps. You may wonder why I said I would be aggrieved if someone took my stuff. This is because it would violate the common pact of the community I live in today, ethically and legally. Letting things go doesn't mean letting yourself be trampled on. I think a lot of people misunderstand that. It's more like tipping a boat back into balance. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Is this a reality you are speaking about regarding the Queen of England?

My gawd, if this becomes a reality, every Polish and Jew from 4 to 5 generations back at least could/would sue Germany and completely and totally bankrupt the whole country.  The whole European Union would go down.  Not to mention Germany stole half of Poland - most of our artworks and music and most of it's Classical music, so they owe us a freakin' fortune.  It would put them into slums.   

about the Queen. In New Zealand when it comes to the native people then yes

there is a Treaty of Waitangi tribunal settlements process in place.  Is a pretty robust process.  Nobody can just make stuff up to claim restitution, the claim has to be proven.  Also nobody can claim to be such and such a native just because they say so, they have to be able to prove it. Also any group of people has to be able to prove that the group is who they claim to be, to be recognised as having standing. And the representatives of that group have to be able to prove that they have a mandate from the group to represent it

when a settlement is reached with a iwi (tribe/group) thru this process then the Minister of Treaty Settlements recommends to the Parliament thru the Cabinet (government of the day). On Parliament signing off on it, the Prime Minister formally advises the Governor-General (who is the Queen's Representative). The Governor-General formally advises the Queen. Queen consents.  Lands returned, money paid, apologies issued. And done

 

about Europe.  People who had their property confiscated by the State during the Nazi era, have been able to get their property back. As Akane says: Some people choose not to do this. Others tho do

Edited by Mollymews
type
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Yes. I would think it and say it.

There is a book I am very fond of called Dream of the Red Chamber (Hong Lou Meng). It tells the story of the rise, glory days and decline of a family in 18thC China. It is in some respects autobiographical, as the author's family mansion and goods built up over lifetimes were confiscated by the state (emperor at the time). 

It resonates with people who lost their family homes and goods during China's modern political transitions, and in one translation of this work the translator spoke to a man who took him on a walk past his former home in Beijing. He asked this man, do you resent it, that the state took your home? The man replies, it did make me very sad for many years, but now I just laugh.

I would want to pass on this message to a younger generation: Enjoy the good in life, grieve a little when it goes, but then, just laugh.

is interesting this as it is a personal pov

in your own case then you would let it go. As this is your choice and there is nothing to prevent you from making this choice then I have no problem with you making this choice

for those who would prefer to choose the opposite then I don't think it is justice, for us as a society to organise our societal procedures in ways that prevent these people from making their choice

this latter is the story of Hong Lou Meng. When there is no procedural way within the society to reclaim your property then for your own peace of mind, best to let the thought go

 

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

  This is the tame and extremely abridged version. When folks tell you they have been under 4-500 years of brutality and injustice... listen.

yes. We continue to tell of our history.  Who we were, what happened, and who/where/what we are now. Sometimes people listen, sometimes they don't.  Either way we just keep on with the telling as best we can

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:
22 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

the deprivation is passed on through the generations via inadequate parenting. One generation is abused so severely (in America, say Native Americans), that their culture is decimated and they are not able to parent adequately, and so their children are not able to successfully parent the succeeding generations. And so here in the US we have rampant alcoholism on the reservations, and the wrecked, miserable, and wasted lives that accompany this disease.

How families fall into poverty, it's complicated. I wouldn't ascribe it to any one cause, but I would be cautious in calling it inadequate parenting. Poor people are not fools nor are they somehow morally damaged. Some of them just made unfortunate choices, or had unfortunate things happen to them through no fault of their own.

I've been referring to Natives & Blacks in poverty in the US though, not other groups of people in poverty.
Sure, sometimes all people can just make bad choices, or bad things happen to them, or society crumbles with the resultant job loss, or they don't have parents who value education, and so they end up in poverty.
 
But I've been explaining a different type of situation where entire cultures are damaged & broken, and often a pattern evolves in these cases -- this happened when we took the Native American's land which had a greater meaning for them than many comprehend, and when we separated Blacks from their families and enslaved them in a new world. This kind of severe abuse can create intergenerational poverty -- it's known as "the cycle of poverty" where the cycle continues, passed on via parents who never learned to cope well and so can't teach their kids to do so. If a person is severely damaged emotionally via a decimated culture and the inadequate parenting that evolves this adds a deeper dimension to the problem as they don't have some of the major skills in their repertoire which good parenting fosters -- not having those skills and an inability to function well doesn't mean they are "fools or morally damaged", as you described it, at all. The troubles and difficulty in functioning is just what happens when a person undergoes severe trauma. Not for all Natives or Blacks, of course, but for the ones who have lacked the support and resources to overcome the trauma.

I mention this dynamic because I've heard people criticize Blacks & Natives, blaming them for the severity of their disfunction after seeing other minorities doing okay and not understanding why Blacks and Natives often have so much more trouble in America. I even encountered this on a forum the other month, where someone was claiming that Blacks were defective human beings compared to other 'races', and citing as proof the fact that Asians do better in the US.  It's very difficult to overcome these deeper traumas caused by cultural decimation and genocide though, and people should be more understanding.

Edited by Luna Bliss
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've been referring to Natives & Blacks in poverty in the US though, not other groups of people in poverty.
Sure, sometimes all people can just make bad choices, or bad things happen to them, or society crumbles with the resultant job loss, or they don't have parents who value education, and so they end up in poverty.
 
But I've been explaining a different type of situation where entire cultures are damaged & broken, and often a pattern evolves in these cases -- this happened when we took the Native American's land which had a greater meaning for them than many comprehend, and when we separated Blacks from their families and enslaved them in a new world. This kind of severe abuse can create intergenerational poverty -- it's known as "the cycle of poverty" where the cycle continues, passed on via parents who never learned to cope well and so can't teach their kids to do so. If a person is severely damaged emotionally via a decimated culture and the inadequate parenting that evolves this adds a deeper dimension to the problem as they don't have some of the major skills in their repertoire which good parenting fosters -- not having those skills and an inability to function well doesn't mean they are "fools or morally damaged", as you described it, at all. The troubles and difficulty in functioning is just what happens when a person undergoes severe trauma. Not for all Natives or Blacks, of course, but for the ones who have lacked the support and resources to overcome the trauma.

I mention this dynamic because I've heard people criticize Blacks & Natives, blaming them for the severity of their disfunction after seeing other minorities doing okay and not understanding why Blacks and Natives often have so much more trouble in America. I even encountered this on a forum the other month, where someone was claiming that Blacks were defective human beings compared to other 'races', and citing as proof the fact that Asians do better in the US.  It's very difficult to overcome these deeper traumas caused by cultural decimation and genocide though, and people should be more understanding.

With the natives, any time we would start to thrive, the government would step in and hinder us, then it would take half the time to start to thrive again and here they would come again.. three or four times they have done this..

then also our population was starting to thrive and back in like the 1940, they sterilized like 40% of the young fertile woman which was devastating..

it's not been for the lack of trying..it's been from being cut down any time you start to get ahead.. They want the resources is why they do this..

As Russell Means said..Every group goes up and down with the economy, where natives, it's been a flat line the whole way.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

With the natives, any time we would start to thrive, the government would step in and hinder us, then it would take half the time to start to thrive again and here they would come again.. three or four times they have done this..

then also our population was starting to thrive and back in like the 1940, they sterilized like 40% of the young fertile woman which was devastating..

it's not been for the lack of trying..it's been from being cut down any time you start to get ahead.. They want the resources is why they do this..

As Russell Means said..Every group goes up and down with the economy, where natives, it's been a flat line the whole way.

Yes, what America did, and is still doing, to Natives......words fail me.  And how America tries to rewrite History regarding slavery too is disgusting. I feel so angry at times, and can start to hate America.  I don't know how the guy from the ACLU  (Jeffery Robinson) whose talk I posted awhile back, with such a clear awareness of all the abuses, can be so forgiving - he knows in depth what has happened, what is still happening, and yet still loves America.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yes, what America did, and is still doing, to Natives......words fail me.  And how America tries to rewrite History regarding slavery too is disgusting. I feel so angry at times, and can start to hate America.  I don't know how the guy from the ACLU  (Jeffery Robinson) whose talk I posted awhile back, with such a clear awareness of all the abuses, can be so forgiving - he knows in depth what has happened, what is still happening, and yet still loves America.

It's easy to love the country without loving the government..We are the country not the government.. just looking at the constitution shows this..

our constitution is a contract between the government and the united states of America..

I don't love the government and I've met too many good people to hate the people.. The government is the one holding the peoples back.. All those lying cheating rich politicians that have all these side games going on..

I just can't bring myself to trust a word out of any of their mouth's.. in my eyes they are not americans, they are government and will sell anyone of us out to get an inch ahead..

I was always told growing up, never trust a politician..and they were right.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

It's easy to love the country without loving the government..We are the country not the government.. just looking at the constitution shows this..

our constitution is a contract between the government and the united states of America..

I don't love the government and I've met too many good people to hate the people.. The government is the one holding the peoples back.. All those lying cheating rich politicians that have all these side games going on..

I just can't bring myself to trust a word out of any of their mouth's.. in my eyes they are not americans, they are government and will sell anyone of us out to get an inch ahead..

I was always told growing up, never trust a politician..and they were right.

Unfortunately I see the government as a reflection of the people   :(

But I agree, there are a lot of good, caring people in America.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Unfortunately I see the government as a reflection of the people   :(

But I agree, there are a lot of good, caring people in America.

I see it as us the people and then there is the government.. Give the government and inch and it will take it and keep it..

There is no reason in the world they should be living filthy rich lives..They should be living where the biggest problems are, then I bet you'd see improvements pretty quick..hehehehe

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:
17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Unfortunately I see the government as a reflection of the people   :(

But I agree, there are a lot of good, caring people in America.

I see it as us the people and then there is the government.. Give the government and inch and it will take it and keep it..

There is no reason in the world they should be living filthy rich lives..They should be living where the biggest problems are, then I bet you'd see improvements pretty quick..hehehehe

America, to me, is a nation of hustlers.  There are indeed those politicians at the top only concerned about money -- "All those lying cheating rich politicians that have all these side games going on", as you say.  But why do we allow them to be in power, over and over? I think too many people without power and money view themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", and don't want to lose the opportunity to 'get theirs',  to be on top,  and to lord it over everyone else.

Not all people in America, of course, but far too many have bought the American Dream hook line and sinker -- the American Dream of infinite resources for the taking, American exceptionalism, infinite progress, trampling over anything in their way to get to the top.

So we need a change in consciousness, a more cooperative one where competition is minimized, where we don't stratify society into layers and keep some people at the bottom.

Edited by Luna Bliss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

America, to me, is a nation of hustlers.  There are indeed those politicians at the top only concerned about money -- "All those lying cheating rich politicians that have all these side games going on", as you say.  But why do we allow them to be in power, over and over? I think too many people without power and money view themselves as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", and don't want to lose the opportunity to 'get theirs',  to be on top,  and to lord it over everyone else.

Not all people in America, of course, but far too many have bought the American Dream hook line and sinker -- the American Dream of infinite resources for the taking, American exceptionalism, infinite progress, trampling over anything in their way to get to the top.

So we need a change in consciousness, a more cooperative one where competition is minimized, where we don't stratify society into layers and keep some people at the bottom.

The reason we have so many at the bottom is because those above them have taken away the tools to keep them from joining the game..

The ones they want to keep down they are keeping down.. Just flat out, right in front of everyone ,doing it..

When a city tears down 50 schools in the inner city in one summer..  that's intended to keep a people down.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ceka Cianci said:

The reason we have so many at the bottom is because those above them have taken away the tools to keep them from joining the game..

The ones they want to keep down they are keeping down.. Just flat out, right in front of everyone ,doing it..

When a city tears down 50 schools in the inner city in one summer..  that's intended to keep a people down.

True, the ones in power have the tools and authority to keep the lower classes down if they only have to deal with small numbers, but  the people they govern are great in number and could overcome them.

Why weren't there more protesters in the Dakotas during the pipeline fiasco, for example.  There were some who joined the fight, but if more had come to help we could have easily overrun the police and protected the water there.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Mollymews said:

about Europe.  People who had their property confiscated by the State during the Nazi era, have been able to get their property back. As Akane says: Some people choose not to do this. Others tho do

Not those who fled World War I Poland, no, they never paid anyone back their lands and property.  My grandmother had one steamer chest on the small side.  They lost everything.  So, I'm speaking of the people who fled to America.  Plus during WWII the whole country of Poland was looted - the Nazi's stole everything.   Restitution is hardly from over.  Russia will not even return our paintings.  

 

2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

But I've been explaining a different type of situation where entire cultures are damaged & broken, and often a pattern evolves in these cases -- this happened when we took the Native American's land which had a greater meaning for them than many comprehend, and when we separated Blacks from their families and enslaved them in a new world. This kind of severe abuse can create intergenerational poverty -- it's known as "the cycle of poverty" where the cycle continues, passed on via parents who never learned to cope well and so can't teach their kids to do so. If a person is severely damaged emotionally 

When I was reading this of the pattern that evolves, I remembered what Ceka said about trust.  Their trust is broken.   I think trust is an important issue here.  

With issues that may begin to be addressed in this new decade of 2020, while it may seem like it's a token black, or a token women, I think a black women may really be what's needed to start to get some of these laws about police and other things changed, such as programs instead of so many police.  I think it's a good idea.  I'm not saying they will win the seats, but they very well might.  

Edited by FairreLilette
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

True, the ones in power have the tools and authority to keep the lower classes down if they only have to deal with small numbers, but  the people they govern are great in number and could overcome them.

Why weren't there more protesters in the Dakotas during the pipeline fiasco, for example.  There were some who joined the fight, but if more had come to help we could have easily overrun the police and protected the water there.  

It wasn't the only place being protested at the time on reservations.. You had protests going on in the Navajo nation at the time as well over foreign mining companies invating sacred lands..it's a not stop battle with the government breaking treaties..

They ran John McCain off for sneaking some bullcrap on the back end of a bill and screwing the Navajo over  big time....

John McCain died by the cancerous sword he swung and I rejoiced.

 

Edited by Ceka Cianci
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A society simply can't function when too much of the wealth resides in a small percentage of the population, and that's what we increasingly have in the US. Looking to the past, revolution always occurs.

I think it's working less and less for those who want to maintain the status quo to shove Blacks to the bottom, and to maintain them as scapegoats.

I do wonder what we're going to see in society as we emerge from our Covid-induced hibernation.  Will America be a nearly non-functioning, failed entity?  Or will we need a few more convolutions before it finally crumbles and greater equity is achieved?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyway, Ceka, hold tight to the loving community you're part of in Tennessee, and I'll hold tight to my meditation community. I think things are going to get very bumpy here in America, and I just hope it doesn't become too horrible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

With the natives, any time we would start to thrive, the government would step in and hinder us, then it would take half the time to start to thrive again and here they would come again.. three or four times they have done this..

then also our population was starting to thrive and back in like the 1940, they sterilized like 40% of the young fertile woman which was devastating..

it's not been for the lack of trying..it's been from being cut down any time you start to get ahead.. They want the resources is why they do this..

As Russell Means said..Every group goes up and down with the economy, where natives, it's been a flat line the whole way.

 

This is horrendous.  The Nazi's did the same to some Poles and Jews.  It's one of the most horrible things to talk about.  The 20th Century surely had some horrific things about it.  

 

Edited by FairreLilette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

A society simply can't function when too much of the wealth resides in a small percentage of the population, and that's what we increasingly have in the US. Looking to the past, revolution always occurs.

I think it's working less and less for those who want to maintain the status quo to shove Blacks to the bottom, and to maintain them as scapegoats.

I do wonder what we're going to see in society as we emerge from our Covid-induced hibernation.  Will America be a nearly non-functioning, failed entity?  Or will we need a few more convolutions before it finally crumbles and greater equity is achieved?

Sorry, OFF TOPIC for a bit.  I read yesterday another pandemic is coming out of China.  They think it may be the swine flu in a more veracious form.  When I read that, I thought it was a hoax.  

If another pandemic of swine flu occurs on top of coronavirus, all of us - the whole world - will change drastically.  We will probably have to have UBI or whatever it is called for awhile if this isn't a hoax regarding another pandemic.  

The thing with UBI is where is the productivity that humans derive so much joy from?   We need to be productive at something too.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

This is horrendous.  The Nazi's did the same to some Poles and Jews.  It's one of the most horrible things to talk about.  The 20th Century surely had some horrific things about it.  

 

Hilter studied how the U.S. treated the indigenous..If you notice similarities, that is why.

  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

The troubles and difficulty in functioning is just what happens when a person undergoes severe trauma.

Do you mean inherited trauma? That one is rather tricky. eg. Can We Really Inherit Trauma?  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/health/mind-epigenetics-genes.html

If it's personal trauma you meant, then yes that affects parenting, though exactly how will vary from person to person. It's really hard to generalise either the cause or the remedy for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Do you mean inherited trauma? That one is rather tricky. eg. Can We Really Inherit Trauma?  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/health/mind-epigenetics-genes.html

If it's personal trauma you meant, then yes that affects parenting, though exactly how will vary from person to person. It's really hard to generalise either the cause or the remedy for that.

We'll we know alcoholism and addiction are a disease that is inherited.  I don't know much about the scientific aspects of the disease and why it is inherited.  

But trauma can affect every part of the body.  

16 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

This?  https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3091114/new-swine-flu-found-china-has-pandemic-potential-researchers-say

if only we could get these viruses to do battle with each other and leave us alone

Yes.  I was just reading more about it.  It says there is a potential from the pigs for this variant of swine flu to jump to humans, but this particular strain hasn't yet is what I read this morning.

Yesterday, when I read it, it painted it far worse.   I thought it was a hoax.  I thought this can't be happening.  However, they need to keep international travel shut for a while because the headline in my news feed this morning reads "Coronavirus is Just Beginning".  

Edited by FairreLilette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Vincent
 
Starry, starry night
Paint your palette blue and grey
Look out on a summer's day
With eyes that know the darkness in my soul
Shadows on the hills
Sketch the trees and the daffodils
Catch the breeze and the winter chills
In colors on the snowy linen land
Now I understand
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen, they did not know how
Perhaps they'll listen now
Starry, starry night
Flaming flowers that brightly blaze
Swirling clouds in violet haze
Reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue
Colors changing hue
Morning fields of amber grain
Weathered faces lined in pain
Are soothed beneath the artist's loving hand
Now I understand
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen, they did not know how
Perhaps they'll listen now
For they could not love you
But still your love was true
And when no hope was left in sight
On that starry, starry night
You took your life, as lovers often do
But I could have told you, Vincent
This world was never meant for one
As beautiful as you
Starry, starry night
Portraits hung in empty halls
Frameless heads on nameless walls
With eyes that watch the world and can't forget
Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in the ragged clothes
The silver thorn, a bloody rose
Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow
Now I think I know
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen, they're not listening still
Perhaps they never will
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...