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36 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

Modern colonialism? I believe that was Portugal. In SE Asia at any rate, then came the Dutch. The English were late to the party. 

Anyway, arguing who did what first is pointless, as there were countless invasions before any Europeans came.  What matters is how we treat each other now.

Colonialism has been dead long before anyone now living was born, Those on the left want us to apolgise for things we never did nor believe in I will apologise the day after the left apologise for the 100 million or so that socialism has killed and the billions it plunged into ooverty, I dont believe in colonialism they still believe in socialism despite the evidenece that it leads to poverty, gulags and misery. Why should I apologies for something I dont believe in when they wont apologise for what they do believe in

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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4 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I admire you for continuing to try, but you might as well give up. 

That is actually how many feel about you.   

I'll alert my black friend Kim, one of the absolutely prettiest, sweetest, happiest girls I've ever met that her life is horrible since it isn't and she doesn't know this but I better let her know it's horrible.  She is too gorgeous, young, brilliant, funny, and having the time of her life with all the college guys falling all over her to care what you think about how her life should be.   Horrible?  Not hardly.  She's absolutely adorable and loving life.  

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9 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I'm not blaming her.

And yet...

On 6/11/2020 at 8:20 PM, Beth Macbain said:

White America has a race problem.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 1:50 PM, Beth Macbain said:

You live in Los Angeles. Home of Rodney King. You have a problem with racism.

People who have a problem with terms like "white privilege" are going to have a problem with any terminology. It's just another attempt to deflect.

 

On 6/26/2020 at 2:13 PM, Beth Macbain said:

the white man's belief that their race is superior to that of the black man. 

So you'd be okay if I said "Well of course black Fairre gets pulled over more, because the black man is always joining gangs and promoting violence and crime in their music!" ?

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6 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Yeah framing is everything.

Political Science studies have shown that people agree on roughly 80% of political stances / topics once you remove the assorted party framing that is designed to get us to back our team and hate the other teams.

The problem is that we all get so entrenched in only being able to see things from our own lenses.

And yeah - I posted a video of some crazy right wingers but... I spent my teen years in a hood surrounded by hippies that all though the FBI, CIA, and NSA were wiretapping them, and following their every last move and the government was planting bombs on them and so on... ie: crazy left wingers.

Crazy isn't a political side... it manifests anytime that bubble your in gets so thick it stops letting in fresh air... 😛

Not gonna lie, I have a hard time believing that it's 80%, but the number is definitely higher than most people will admit.

I blame this new trend of treating the "other side" as enemies. Dehumanizing them, like soldiers do in war, which is a terrible stance to have for people that are very likely your neighbors.

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21 hours ago, L3r0yj3nk1ns said:

Interestingly there was a pretty comprehensive study done about the idea that white police are killing blacks in higher numbers and that race is institutionalized as a result of this  https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877   Looking at that study, the conclusion was that idea is just not true. 

just a FYI

take actual data that measured what happened yesterday and use (MR) mulitinominal regression to predict if what happened yesterday will happen tomorrow

the actual data (included in the study) is 26% of people killed by police are black and 12% of the population is black. 88% of the population is non-black people and 74% of people killed by police are non-black

MR(100 - 26) >= 26. Accordingly, the MR model in the study predicts that any individual police officer is as likely (if not more so) to kill a non-black person tomorrow than they are to kill a black person

the MR prediction in the study doesn't mean what you think it does L3r0yj3nk1ns

 

this particular method of modelling happens a lot with political polls. Often called unskewing.  Make candidates happier by predicting that what will happen tomorrow will not look like what happened yesterday

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8 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Colonialism has been dead long before anyone now living was born

By modern I meant... 15th-early 20thC. It was going on before then in various forms too.

As you say, none of us alive today are accountable for any part of that. 

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14 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:
15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

If you had a child as Black Fairre you might have suffered more than had you been White Fairre, as 50% of doctors believe Blacks need less pain medication.  I don't know when this strange perception began, but Thomas Jefferson had it, saying Blacks can endure more pain (guess it served him to believe this as he could work the slaves longer).

Probably a result of the rationale that those who have an active lifestyle are less prone to feeling pain than those whose lives were more sedentary. I've certainly experienced that phenomenon over various periods of my life. Probably safe to assume that a slave of child bearing age would be quite a bit more active than the one's benefiting from her labors and as a result of that work, have a higher pain threshold.

The perceived characteristics of Black people throughout the ages and how these beliefs were used as justification for abuse is one of the most bizarre trips through History one can take; if 'horror' is your genre then cancel Netflix and search no more! Even the sick medical experimenters and slave owners of the past had somewhat of a conscience though, and so to ease their mind when committing torture and degrading Blacks they justified their procedures and desires by deciding Blacks felt less pain, or had thicker skin, as well as other reprehensible mind-creations to justify doing whatever they pleased (for example, check out Mr. "father of gynecology" and the torture he inflicted on slaves via medical exploration, as well as how the perception that slaves were perceived to have 20% less capacity in their lungs and the cure for this finding -- make them work harder in the fields to increase that lung capacity!). Slaves, dead or alive, fetched a good price via being sold to medical establishments for medical experimentation, and this was quite a business in the days of slavery.

Americans needed to explain why systematically whipping, raping and treating an entire race of people like chattel was okay under the Constitution. One solution was to make black people subhuman by law - thus the Three-Fifths Compromise was passed in 1787, determining that Blacks were only 3/5ths of a person compared to Whites.
Seen to be subhuman, it was only logical to assume their response to everyday stimuli must be different than those of the normal person (the whites). And so the stereotype was born -- that Blacks are just made differently. 

Whites spent huge amounts of effort in labeling Blacks as different from themselves so they could feel superior too. In fact, it was such an obsession to label Blacks as bad and Whites as better via all sorts of weird measurements, that at times this trip through the annals of History evokes a temporary respite from horror and becomes a kind of sick comedy; I found myself wondering, is this some sort of slavery era parody, like our modern day Onion website?

We can read how Thomas Jefferson perceived Blacks (smelly, less intelligent, lustful with few of the finer capabilities involved in loving relationships), among other jewels of thought:
Easier to read summary: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/black-people-according-to-thomas-jefferson/
Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia (perception of slaves) : http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h490t.html

More later on how some of the erroneous characterizations of Blacks (that they feel less pain, for example) translates to present times. Fortunately some of the absolutely weirdest ones bit the dust! But even today, Blacks (and lower status people) are sometimes treated unfairly by the medical establishment due to stereotypes which carried through from the past, causing such people more suffering via receiving inadequate medical treatment.

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11 hours ago, JanuarySwan said:
15 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I admire you for continuing to try, but you might as well give up. 

That is actually how many feel about you.   

I'll alert my black friend Kim, one of the absolutely prettiest, sweetest, happiest girls I've ever met that her life is horrible since it isn't and she doesn't know this but I better let her know it's horrible.  She is too gorgeous, young, brilliant, funny, and having the time of her life with all the college guys falling all over her to care what you think about how her life should be.   Horrible?  Not hardly.  She's absolutely adorable and loving life.  

Honestly, January, what do you feel we are trying to do by alerting people to the racial prejudice which exists in our society?

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11 hours ago, JanuarySwan said:

That is actually how many feel about you.   

I'll alert my black friend Kim, one of the absolutely prettiest, sweetest, happiest girls I've ever met that her life is horrible since it isn't and she doesn't know this but I better let her know it's horrible.  She is too gorgeous, young, brilliant, funny, and having the time of her life with all the college guys falling all over her to care what you think about how her life should be.   Horrible?  Not hardly.  She's absolutely adorable and loving life.  

Interesting.

Out of everything that has been discussed across all these threads, and all these posts, your take-away is that those of us who support BLM and recognize that there is a racism problem all think every black person's lives are exactly the same? Or do you think that? Do you think they all look alike as well? 

It's also cute that you believe your token "black friend Kim" has ever been the victim of racism. Have you ever had that conversation with her?

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5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Interesting.

Out of everything that has been discussed across all these threads, and all these posts, your take-away is that those of us who support BLM and recognize that there is a racism problem all think every black person's lives are exactly the same? Or do you think that? Do you think they all look alike as well? 

It's also cute that you believe your token "black friend Kim" has ever been the victim of racism. Have you ever had that conversation with her?

She's no "token" black person...she's a person.  I think basically some of you have a mindset that is in the 1950's.  Things have changed.  Blacks are leading full and loving lives.  

There are some under-privileged areas in this country but you all seem to be in stereotype that it's all black people are miserable and that is not true.

If you cannot understand that, it's your problem because this isn't the 1940's anymore.  

Don't make your problem, mine or other's peoples problem. 

I think you are a very narrow-minded person.  

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10 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

So you'd be okay if I said "Well of course black Fairre gets pulled over more, because the black man is always joining gangs and promoting violence and crime in their music!" ?

You do understand that if you did, you'd be making the exact point I've been trying to make, right? 

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23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Honestly, January, what do you feel we are trying to do by alerting people to the racial prejudice which exists in our society?

I feel most of you are in the 1950's.  I've said that went I first started reading your posts.  There are multi-ethnic communities now and jobs with all kinds of us.  

I think your minds are too stereotyped and do not focus on any positives.  

You views don't portray modern blacks, imo, but rather 1950's blacks as do your studies which are mostly from decades ago.  We are a different world now.  

If some blacks cannot be happy, don't destroy the black people who are happy by telling them they are miserable when they aren't.  It's not right.  

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56 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The perceived characteristics of Black people throughout the ages and how these beliefs were used as justification for abuse is one of the most bizarre trips through History one can take; if 'horror' is your genre then cancel Netflix and search no more! Even the sick medical experimenters and slave owners of the past had somewhat of a conscience though, and so to ease their mind when committing torture and degrading Blacks they justified their procedures and desires by deciding Blacks felt less pain, or had thicker skin, as well as other reprehensible mind-creations to justify doing whatever they

What does this really have to do with today?  

It's like saying the Poles cannot get over the Nazis because of all they have endured.  Well, you know what...we not only could overcome, we did overcome; and, if need arises, we will overcome again.  

We are all over-comers as this whole planet and especially Eurasia was barbaric.  We hopefully aren't barbarians anymore although restitution to certain Native Americans still needs to be done.  

What good would it do to keep perpetuating things about Nazis that aren't occurring today towards the Poles?  

In your final paragraph, you say it does carry over to blacks of today.  I think you need to have some discussions with doctors today.  I don't know any doctors treating anyone cruelly.  And, if there are, you sue.  

We have real things we need to accomplish today.  Health care for all is one.  No more qualified immunity for police another.   However, the whole government is immune and cannot be sued for injustices that have occurred to any of us neither in the future nor in the past, but we might be able to far lessen the immunity the police have the luxury of.  More mental health check-ups for officers; a more impartial setting to try officers, etc.  

There are still Nazi's today who hate certain white people.  Do I need to have my life ruined and say I am miserable because of it?  Or say I am miserable because a job wants to hire someone older than me with more experience or whatever?  

I just feel some of you need to focus on that fact that not all blacks are living horrible, miserable lives because they aren't.  

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26 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:
52 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Honestly, January, what do you feel we are trying to do by alerting people to the racial prejudice which exists in our society?

I feel most of you are in the 1950's.  I've said that went I first started reading your posts.  There are multi-ethnic communities now and jobs with all kinds of us.  

I think your minds are too stereotyped and do not focus on any positives.  

You views don't portray modern blacks, imo, but rather 1950's blacks as do your studies which are mostly from decades ago.  We are a different world now.  

If some blacks cannot be happy, don't destroy the black people who are happy by telling them they are miserable when they aren't.  It's not right.  

I've never attempted to "destroy the black people who are happy by telling them they are miserable when they aren't". You are thinking of your friend Kim and imagining that I am telling her this. In reality I am explaining the experience of other people, and my perception has nothing to do with those Blacks who don't appear to experience prejudice, like your friend, Kim.

I think you imagine all the rest of the world is like your multicultural area of the US, and so you negate the experience of others outside your own, personal existence. This is easy to do -- what we experience affects us the most and colors our opinions of reality.

I base my perception on what other Blacks have expressed to me -- on the prejudice they frequently encounter, even today. And I base it on experiments which show that more Blacks live in poverty, have lifespans shorter than Whites, have poorer health, and are less represented in the positions of authority which gives them more power to change society in ways that take their needs into consideration. And there are so many other measurements regarding quality of life that put Blacks at the bottom!

All the information is out there if you'd just care to leave your apartment behind and take a look. This has nothing to do with the 1950's, when it was of course much, much worse.  It's better for most POC now, true, but there's much improvement still needed.

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9 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

The perceived characteristics of Black people throughout the ages and how these beliefs were used as justification for abuse is one of the most bizarre trips through History one can take; if 'horror' is your genre then cancel Netflix and search no more! Even the sick medical experimenters and slave owners of the past had somewhat of a conscience though, and so to ease their mind when committing torture and degrading Blacks they justified their procedures and desires by deciding Blacks felt less pain, or had thicker skin, as well as other reprehensible mind-creations to justify doing whatever they

What does this really have to do with today?  

It's like saying the Poles cannot get over the Nazis because of all they have endured.  Well, you know what...we not only could overcome, we did overcome; and, if need arises, we will overcome again.  

We are all over-comers as this whole planet and especially Eurasia was barbaric.  We hopefully aren't barbarians anymore although restitution to certain Native Americans still needs to be done.  

What good would it do to keep perpetuating things about Nazis that aren't occurring today towards the Poles?  

In your final paragraph, you say it does carry over to blacks of today.  I think you need to have some discussions with doctors today.  I don't know any doctors treating anyone cruelly.  And, if there are, you sue.  

We have real things we need to accomplish today.  Health care for all is one.  No more qualified immunity for police another.   However, the whole government is immune and cannot be sued for injustices that have occurred to any of us neither in the future nor in the past, but we might be able to far lessen the immunity the police have the luxury of.  More mental health check-ups for officers; a more impartial setting to try officers, etc.  

There are still Nazi's today who hate certain white people.  Do I need to have my life ruined and say I am miserable because of it?  Or say I am miserable because a job wants to hire someone older than me with more experience or whatever?  

I just feel some of you need to focus on that fact that not all blacks are living horrible, miserable lives because they aren't. 

Those who don't know History are doomed to repeat it, somebody said. And many of the patterns of the past translate to the present, though not always in the most severe form. This is why it's wise to study History.

For the life of me I can't understand why focusing on present inequality between POC and Whites, injustices which still create a lot of suffering even if not as extreme as those in slavery times, should be ignored just because their experience is not as bad now!  What is the logic in this?

* Nobody has said all Blacks are living horrible miserable lives.  

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8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think you imagine all the rest of the world is like your multicultural area of the US, and so you negate the experience of others outside your own, personal existence. This is easy to do -- what we experience affects us the most and colors our opinions of reality.

Ditto except in reverse to "your area".  This is what I am trying to say.  This whole country is not the same.  Certain issues will have to be dealt with on a state to state basis but it's still not right to lump all blacks into one category like they are all the same.  We are all leading unique and varied lives.  

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1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:
7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think you imagine all the rest of the world is like your multicultural area of the US, and so you negate the experience of others outside your own, personal existence. This is easy to do -- what we experience affects us the most and colors our opinions of reality.

Ditto.  This is what I am trying to say.  This whole country is not the same.  Certain issues will have to be dealt with on a state to state basis but it's still not right to lump all blacks into one category like they are all the same.  We are all leading unique and varied lives.  

This is not what some of your other posts express though. You frequently try to downplay Black experience by saying it's not as bad as it was in the 1950's.  So you are dissing the experience of those who are facing injustice in these present times.

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39 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

In your final paragraph, you say it does carry over to blacks of today.  I think you need to have some discussions with doctors today.  I don't know any doctors treating anyone cruelly.  And, if there are, you sue. 

Once again, you know all doctors?  Andy why are  you jumping to "cruelty" to describe what's happening?  And  do you know of all the tests which demonstrate doctors have bias just like everybody else?

Doctors have been tested, and even they are shocked at their own bias. This affects medical treatment for POC, and so all people need to become aware of their implicit (unconscious) bias to as great a degree as is possible.  This enables POC to receive better treatment, even saving their lives in some cases.

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29 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This is not what some of your other posts express though. You frequently try to downplay Black experience by saying it's not as bad as it was in the 1950's.  So you are dissing the experience of those who are facing injustice in these present times.

You did present a study to me that was from 80's years ago from the 1940's and I knew it was old, but I was thinking it was from the 1950's perhaps from a perception of television and I said so in my post even before you told me how old it was.  

I am not dissing anyone, I simply think you do not know nor speak for all blacks nor should they be stigmatized that all there lives are so horrible.  There are under-privileged people of all colors in this country but I think you paint black people as all the same and/or it's very old data as you did present me with something I thought was prior to The Civil Rights movement along with other old studies.  

The Civil Rights movement was 60 years ago.  We have overcome a lot; all kinds of minorities.  

Look, I could say Polish are the most oppressed because the government may view us as "communists".  Look at Bernie Saunders, he's a socialist.  Poles are just too racial to the American government and I doubt will ever be a President.  People would probably see a Polish candidate and say he's a communist which is ridiculous but we are not going to have our whole lives ruined over it.    

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7 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

You did present a study to me that was from 80's years ago from the 1940's and I knew it was old, but I was thinking it was from the 1950's perhaps from a perception of television and I said so in my post.  

I am not dissing anyone, I simply think you do not know nor speak for all blacks nor should they be stigmatized that all there lives are so horrible. 

The Civil Rights movement was 60 years ago.  We have overcome a lot; all kinds of minorities.  

 

I'm not doing this (saying all Blacks lead horrible lives).  We are simply trying to become aware of the racial injustices that still  do exist today so we can remedy them -- becoming 'woke'. This does not mean we think every POC suffers from the same amount of racial injustice. 

I would have no problem if you simply want to bring up how conditions have improved, or reassure us that you know some people who do not experience racism. But that's not what I've seen you doing -- I've seen you trying to say that it's simply not that bad now, and this is disrespectful to all who suffer as well as those who are trying to change an unjust society and make Black lives better.

And if I bring up the past, it is to make a connection to the present so as to see the entire picture more clearly.  It is not to say the past is exactly as it is today.

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16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I'm not doing this (saying all Blacks lead horrible lives).  We are simply trying to become aware of the racial injustices that still  do exist today so we can remedy them -- becoming 'woke'. This does not mean we think every POC suffers from the same amount of racial injustice. 

I would have no problem if you simply want to bring up how conditions have improved, or reassure us that you know some people who do not experience racism. But that's not what I've seen you doing -- I've seen you trying to say that it's simply not that bad now, and this is disrespectful to all who suffer as well as those who are trying to change an unjust society and make Black lives better.

And if I bring up the past, it is to make a connection to the present so as to see the entire picture more clearly.  It is not to say the past is exactly as it is today.

Others of us have brought it up that their lives are great but it's laughed at and that is offensive.  They are enjoying their lives just like anyone else in this multi-ethnic community.  It's a great community.  We wouldn't have noticed we were multi-ethnic if you hadn't brought it up.  The constantly pointing out our differences isn't going to help.  If you keep pointing out a Middle Eastern person, how is that going to help?  I have engaged with Middle Easterners all my life, now I need to look at them differently.  Our lives in multi-ethnic communities are on a pretty even kneel in our neighborhoods, jobs, entertainment and we don't notice our differences.   But, now I see a Middle Eastern person now whereas I never did before, thanks to all of this.  

But, as far as what I say in my posts, I don't think you are even listening.  Take your response above regarding doctors for example.  I never said I know all doctors, E.gawd!  

 

 

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1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

The Civil Rights movement was 60 years ago.  We have overcome a lot; all kinds of minorities. 

The Civil Rights movement changed the laws so that material elements in society became better for Blacks. And while I think the movement changed some minds too, as MLK said, "you can't legislate morality".

So I see what's happening now as a Civil Rights movement of the mind. It's not an easy one. Far too people won't even agree they have an unconscious mind -- this is scary to them as they want to believe they're in control of everything. And so how could they understand or admit to implicit bias which is unconscious?  I wish to god I could send them on an acid trip or something..lol.

So we get person after person after person coming onto these threads, unaware that they might have any bias, unwilling to even entertain the idea much less experiment a bit to see if it's true.  There's all kinds of tests people can take to discover any sort of bias one might have, and I've posted a few.  But most don't investigate - instead they prefer to say racism is a thing of the past because they don't see any. I do wonder if they know what a profoundly ridiculous statement that is --  "I don't see something and so it doesn't exist".

I guess, January, with all your harping on the past as a way to discredit me, that you didn't notice someone brought in their utterly ridiculous theory as to why slaves would be perceived as being able to endure more pain, totally bypassing the volumes of History that describe abuse of slaves, and instead ascribing an oh-so-kindly motive for slave owner perceptions.  See, there's reason to bring in the past.

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3 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Others of us have brought it up that their lives are great but it's laughed at and that is offensive.  They are enjoying their lives just like anyone else in this multi-ethnic community.  It's a great community.  We wouldn't have noticed we were multi-ethnic if you hadn't brought it up.  The constantly pointing out our differences isn't going to help.  If you keep pointing out a Middle Eastern person, how is that going to help?  I have engaged with Middle Easterners all my life, now I need to look at them differently.  Our lives in multi-ethnic communities are on a pretty even kneel in our neighborhoods, jobs, entertainment.  

I'm glad you live in a nice community. But if you bring this up to counter, or make an attempt to minimize, the suffering of others outside your community then it's wrong.  This is the way I've always seen you bring up your community -- as an attempt to say it's just not that bad in America, not as bad as we are describing the situations we're examining on these threads.

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9 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

But, as far as what I say in my posts, I don't think you are even listening.  Take your response above regarding doctors for example.  I never said I know all doctors, E.gawd!

When I began to describe the bias of doctors that affects Blacks who seek medical treatment, you said:

" I think you need to have some discussions with doctors today.  I don't know any doctors treating anyone cruelly.  "

By your statement you seem to imply this isn't happening. I was pointing out you don't know all the doctors.

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