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44 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

No, Beth, it's hitting you over the head with your myopic and intellectually lazy responses.

I do so humbly apologize, Sir, for having my attention diverted in multiple ways while You were demanding my attention, Master. I most respectfully apologize, Sir, for neglecting to devote myself entirely to You and Your most desirous patriarchal requirements for correcting my exceedingly improper behavior. I shall set myself upon a course of correction that involves proper self-flagellation. Would Sir prefer I use the chain, or the barbed wire?

I'll try to do better. Please don't beat me again, Master. 

Translation: I'm working my real job, my internet keeps going up and down, there is an excruciatingly loud lawn mower right outside where I'm sitting, and also, **** **, *** ************* *******. 

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

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10 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I do so humbly apologize, Sir, for having my attention diverted in multiple ways while You were demanding my attention, Master. I most respectfully apologize, Sir, for neglecting to devote myself entirely to You and Your most desirous patriarchal requirements for correcting my exceedingly improper behavior. I shall set myself upon a course of correction that involves proper self-flagellation. Would Sir prefer I use the chain, or the barbed wire?

I'll try to do better. Please don't beat me again, Master. 

Translation: I'm working my real job, my internet keeps going up and down, there is an excruciatingly loud lawn mower right outside where I'm sitting, and also, **** **, *** ************* *******. 

I knew that there was something wrong with my response, but I forgot how to sub.

ETA I mean, how to be the sub.

did I get it right yet?

Edited by kali Wylder
to correct the grammar
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2 hours ago, kali Wylder said:
4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Cops generally only use force when interacting with criminals, particularly violent criminals. 

Wait a minute.  This is just not true!  

I couldn't find the post by Toyla where he said "Cops generally only use force when interacting with criminals, particular violent criminals."

At the time the marijuana laws were changed in California and other states, the articles I read said approximately 48% of those incarcerated currently are due to marijuana related charges.  

I didn't think those people were "criminals".  Yes, it was against the law then but it isn't now and that needed to change.  

My sister and nephew smoked pot at times, so what.  This did not give an out of uniform police officer the right to beat my nephew and sister nearly to death by jumping my nephew when he is taking out the trash.  The man lost in the lawsuit and had to pay $100,000 dollars to my sister and got off for the rest.  My sister didn't speak, eat, drink, move for almost seven years and was hospitalized for seven years partly because of the beating she took as a small 5ft woman from this *uckedUpperson.   It's not his job to go around beating citizens to a pulp because they smoked marijuana.  

Toyla, the police have some kind of power craziness.  It cannot be denied.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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I do know some LEOs and chatting with one recently he's saying it's the bad cops (Including ones that let the power go to their head) that makes all of them look bad. It's also some departments use old school training that shows the types of restraints that are some departments are now telling their officers not to do.

We also have been the subject of police harassment, especially like 30 years ago due to being an interracial couple. This happen when we took a trip across the US in a RV and some towns in the south looked at us like we were thugs and even got pulled over. We blamed them being stuck in the old ways.  Where we live now it's a very small town and we're never had issues.

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46 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Yes, but the data you provided was very vague and does not add up and I'm not insulting you either. If he proposed that many cuts to social programs....are you saying nothing got cut? What I was asking you for was more data as to what programs that money went to. Where was the increase? The data you provided could easily have gone to administration and other vague costs such as "overhead" and not to actual people that need it.

My assertion was simple: the US spends much less than it should on social programs than it should and it shows.

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/03/26/the-u-s-spends-far-too-little-on-social-welfare/

Your assertion was actually (if I remember) that spending was cut, not that it wasn't as much as it should be, which is a far more interesting discussion.  Spending has gone up, as I've shown.  But, you are correct, that is NOT the same thing as tax dollars reaching people it could really benefit.

Spending is often hard to pin down - right wing lunatics like me normally assume that's by design, so that there is less accountability for where the money really ends up.  If you're interested in details (it's more work than I'm interested in doing on this) you can pull up individual department budget requests (in those I've looked at, for NASA and DOE, they include actual spending from prior years) to get more in depth.  It is VERY tedious.  In addition, with social programs you really need to be careful how you characterize it beyond gross dollar amounts and trends.  So, Medicare and Social Security have gone through the roof in recent years - but that doesn't mean anything, since it's purely a factor of demographics and the spending (and funding) is locked in.  Education spending (at least federally) gyrates up and down, and really most of the education spending is state and local anyway, so it's not all that material anyway.  Income based programs can be cut intentionally (as Clinton did and Trump says he wants to) but most of the variation in spending is due to economic issues (ie. federal unemployment funding goes up when unemployment does, SNAP spending goes down as more low-wage workers get employed and incomes rise).  For the latter, what you may look at the data and see that as "spending cuts" while I would look at it and see "improving economy".  Finally, it needs to be remembered that agencies do NOT have the luxury or ability to put money away for a rainy day; they are legally obligated to spend the money allocated to them, and sometimes this is purely wasted.  I friend's wife worked for the VA back after the recession, and they got 3 lobby upgrades in 5 years, because, well, what are you going to spend the extra money on, taking care of veterans?

I haven't found anything you've said insulting - you're making your points and engaging in reasoned discussion, that's refreshing.

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19 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I couldn't find the post by Toyla where he said "Cops generally only use force when interacting with criminals, particular violent criminals."

At the time the marijuana laws were changed in California and other states, the articles I read said approximately 48% of those incarcerated currently are due to marijuana related charges.  

I didn't think those people were "criminals".  Yes, it was against the law then but it isn't now and that needed to change.  

My sister and nephew smoked pot at times, so what.  This did not give an out of uniform police officer the right to beat my nephew and sister nearly to death by jumping my nephew when he is taking out the trash.  The man lost in the lawsuit and had to pay $100,000 dollars to my sister and got off for the rest.  My sister didn't speak, eat, drink, move for almost seven years and was hospitalized for seven years partly because of the beating she took as a small 5ft woman from this *uckedUpperson.   It's not his job to go around beating citizens to a pulp because they smoked marijuana.  

Toyla, the police have some kind of power craziness.  It cannot be denied.  

Surely some police, and I've seen it first hand.  But most police are just trying to do good for their communities.  The trouble is, if you give 100,000 people guns and badges, a certain small percentage of them are going to become swaggering, arrogant, tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood, and some become cops just so they can do that.  Some.  Similarly, if you take 100,000 protestors, a certain small percentage of them will loot and riot and possibly commit arson and murder, and some will "join" the protests specifically to do that.  In neither case is it appropriate to label the great majority with the sins of the *uckedUp minority.

Remember, pot is still illegal under federal law in every state.  I was actually shocked (and relieved) Jeff Sessions didn't order every US attorney and the FBI to shut down every pot dispensary in the country.  Sessions could really use some mother nature.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I do so humbly apologize, Sir, for having my attention diverted in multiple ways while You were demanding my attention, Master. I most respectfully apologize, Sir, for neglecting to devote myself entirely to You and Your most desirous patriarchal requirements for correcting my exceedingly improper behavior. I shall set myself upon a course of correction that involves proper self-flagellation. Would Sir prefer I use the chain, or the barbed wire?

I'll try to do better. Please don't beat me again, Master. 

Translation: I'm working my real job, my internet keeps going up and down, there is an excruciatingly loud lawn mower right outside where I'm sitting, and also, **** **, *** ************* *******. 

lol that's actually funny :)

I'm sorry, I went off the deep end out of frustration.  If my reaction were a stereo, you deserved a 2, and I gave you a 9.  One of these days I'll learn to push the "X" in the upper right and move on to something useful while I cool down.

Not a fan of chain or barbed wire - too much blood.  Nettles are much better.

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28 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Surely some police, and I've seen it first hand.  But most police are just trying to do good for their communities.  The trouble is, if you give 100,000 people guns and badges, a certain small percentage of them are going to become swaggering, arrogant, tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood, and some become cops just so they can do that.  Some.  Similarly, if you take 100,000 protestors, a certain small percentage of them will loot and riot and possibly commit arson and murder, and some will "join" the protests specifically to do that.  In neither case is it appropriate to label the great majority with the sins of the *uckedUp minority.

Remember, pot is still illegal under federal law in every state.  I was actually shocked (and relieved) Jeff Sessions didn't order every US attorney and the FBI to shut down every pot dispensary in the country.  Sessions could really use some mother nature.

 

 

I know there are lone crazies out there.  But, some of the police methods certainly did need changing as well as racial profiling which works under an "assumption of presumed guilt" according to a skin tone.  

I don't smoke it currently, Toyla.  

But, this is not correct?....that's it's only illegal on "Federal lands"?  Marijuana laws for California:

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • You must be 21 or older to have, purchase or use recreational cannabis. This includes smoking, vaping and eating cannabis-infused products.
  • You may possess 28.5 grams of cannabis plant material (about an ounce) and 8 grams of concentrated cannabis.
  • It is illegal to give or sell retail cannabis to minors.
  • It is illegal to drive under the influence of cannabis.
  • It is illegal to consume, smoke, eat or vape cannabis in public. It is illegal to open a package containing cannabis or any cannabis products in public. This includes but is not limited to parks and sidewalks, business and residential areas.
  • It is also illegal to consume cannabis in other locations where smoking is illegal, including bars, restaurants, buildings open to the public, places of employment and areas within 15 feet of doors and ventilation openings. 
  • Even though it is legal under California law, you cannot consume or possess cannabis on federal lands such as national parks, even if the park is in California. Among the areas that are federal lands in the San Francisco Bay Area are the Presidio, Alcatraz Island, the Marin Headlands and Ocean Beach. 
  • You can consume cannabis on private property, but property owners and landlords may ban the use and possession of cannabis on their properties.
  • It is illegal to take your cannabis across state lines, even if you are traveling to another state where cannabis is legal.
  • Only state licensed establishments may sell retail cannabis products.
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6 hours ago, Lilathvom said:

However, if you are concerned specifically about police violence toward one single ethnicity, then frankly... you are a racist. Around 400 White people are shot by the police every single year. More than one a day. For every Black person killed by the police, two White people are shot.

What an odd pairing of statistics.    The obvious comparisons would be between numbers of people shot every year by the police, broken down by the presumed ethnicity of the victim, and between the number of people killed in police shootings every year, again broken down by ethnicity.

According to the Washington Post, since they started keeping track of all fatal police shootings in the US in 2015,  the number of fatal shootings by the police  was 13 per million of population for Whites,  23 per million for Hispanics and 31 per million for Black victims.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

 

 

 

Edited by Innula Zenovka
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3 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I know there are lone crazies out there.  But, some of the police methods certainly did need changing as well as racial profiling which works under an "assumption" according to a skin tone.  

I don't smoke it currently, Toyla.  

But, this is not correct?....that's it's only illegal on "Federal lands"?  Marijuana laws for California:

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • You must be 21 or older to have, purchase or use recreational cannabis. This includes smoking, vaping and eating cannabis-infused products.
  • You may possess 28.5 grams of cannabis plant material (about an ounce) and 8 grams of concentrated cannabis.
  • It is illegal to give or sell retail cannabis to minors.
  • It is illegal to drive under the influence of cannabis.
  • It is illegal to consume, smoke, eat or vape cannabis in public. It is illegal to open a package containing cannabis or any cannabis products in public. This includes but is not limited to parks and sidewalks, business and residential areas.
  • It is also illegal to consume cannabis in other locations where smoking is illegal, including bars, restaurants, buildings open to the public, places of employment and areas within 15 feet of doors and ventilation openings. 
  • Even though it is legal under California law, you cannot consume or possess cannabis on federal lands such as national parks, even if the park is in California. Among the areas that are federal lands in the San Francisco Bay Area are the Presidio, Alcatraz Island, the Marin Headlands and Ocean Beach. 
  • You can consume cannabis on private property, but property owners and landlords may ban the use and possession of cannabis on their properties.
  • It is illegal to take your cannabis across state lines, even if you are traveling to another state where cannabis is legal.
  • Only state licensed establishments may sell retail cannabis products.

It's illegal under federal law everywhere from sea to shining sea, same as heroin and cocaine, etc. although Congress did pass a law in like 2015 to prohibit the feds from interfering in "medical marijuana" laws.  When states were making it "legal" for recreational use I was actually confused why Obama didn't sue them under the supremacy clause, the way he did with other states enacting immigration-oriented laws.  Personally, I've been advocating that the GOP push for full federal legalization for years as a way to co-opt the normally more left-inclined youth vote.  Surely there are enough libertarians that would vote with the Dems on this, and, since the President who signs bills into law normally gets the credit, Trump could sign and right away take a mighty bong hit on national TV.  If anyone could use a good hit it's him.  At any rate, last year a bill passed some House committee to do just that, but I think it's stalled.  Once it finally does get made legal, I'm heading up to the mountains for a couple weeks with a kilo of the best stuff I can find.

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So many people think they are just going to stand up in front of protestors and say "Look! I put together this pie chart that proves once and for all that you don't have any concerns. Go on home and enjoy your lives! Better go quick. ... here comes the tear gas!"

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1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

  Once it finally does get made legal, I'm heading up to the mountains for a couple weeks with a kilo of the best stuff I can find.

As if you did not type this smoking a fat one .. :D

 

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6 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:
6 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

OK, you have officially joined the ranks of unwilling to believe anything that doesn't support your view, and too lazy to bother even reading something that might contradict you.  Those statistics are based on surveys of the people arrested, not what the cops reported.  You'd know that if you bothered to read it.  Enjoy your ignorance.

Wow. Really? Really, Tolya?! Disagree with me if you want, but that was really hitting below the belt.

I've basically left this thread after yesterday's crap show, but I cannot let this bit of cognitive dissonance stand. Are you effing kidding me, Beth? Did Tolya say to you that "The Klan will be really pleased with you"?*  because of your actions/words? Because you did, to me. Oh yes, and Sylvia will cluck cluck and count personal pronouns if someone strays out of the PC Rulebook lines and defends against personal attacks. Attack personally, like YOU did and that's ok. Defend personally with *I* and well, it is all about "you."

I was called, basically a Klansman, for daring to say "looting is wrong" to Scylla's "justifiable damages" in burning down a Target store ffs. 

Oh right, we weren't allowed to talk about looting as a separate topic because it wasn't on YOUR list of approved topics, despite the fact that 99% of this entire thread is OFF TOPIC. I see we've been talking dolls, and Churchill and IRA and... haven't seen anyone else be called the Klan. But Tolya telling you that you're ignorant, well, that's just too much below the belt.

Tolya, who everyone on the board knows is going to be pretty much the opposite of a Liberal viewpoint. But a like-minded liberal, not to mention people I considered at least Internet friendly? THAT"S who YOU chose to shut down and smear. Enjoy the cognitive dissonance. Enjoy the virtue PCing. 

What a load of crap.

ETA: I stand corrected, the exact quote is "The Klan would be so proud." THAT really changes the whole meaning, doesn't it.

Edited by Gatogateau
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Here we go again...

Your first paragraph proves my previous point. You have an unfortunate tendency to want to turn every discussion into being about you. It's been this way for years, and not just on the SL Forums. I realize you will not change, but I have the right to point it out now and then.

Now, back to the actual topic of this thread (which is not you).

Edited by Sylvia Tamalyn
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1 hour ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Here we go again...

Your first paragraph proves my previous point. You have an unfortunate tendency to want to turn every discussion into being about you. It's been this way for years, and not just on the SL Forums. I realize you will not change, but I have the right to point it out now and then.

Now, back to the actual topic of this thread (which is not you).

Are you going to change this again, Sylvia or can I quote it now? (rhetorical)

Thank you for doing the clucking I predicted.

I've never posted anywhere BUT the SL forums, unless you call my own SL feed and one SL related blog that was all about gossip 6+ years ago. And yes, in 10 years, all I've talked about is "me" and I've never added anything to the forum, unless of course I was siding with you then we're great. Have me get called a Klansman, and well, hey...I just make it about me. [sarcasm]

Also, thank you for the scorn laugh. That proves a pretty good point. If you can't see the PAIN in my post along with the anger, well, you don't read too well. That you want to laugh at the very real pain expressed in that, because I was treated like dirt by people I thought friendly and some of whom have gone on and on in IM and email about what a treasured friend I am... well... you know what you can do with yourself and your liberal empathy and your "good lives for all" crap.  Maybe Luna isn't all wrong about you.

Edited by Gatogateau
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1 minute ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

I'm laughing because you insist upon proving my point and at how quickly you can escalate your own drama. In a totally inappropriate thread for it, I might add. 

*plonk*

 

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4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Really, have any data to back that up?  Seems pretty counter-intuitive.  I mean, cops interact with people for traffic tickets, responding to calls, first aid, talking to witnesses, etc. and I'm reasonably certain they don't normally draw their guns or tase people in those situations, which is the vast majority of police work.   And I CAN back that up:

"In fact, only about a quarter (27%) of all officers say they have ever fired their service weapon while on the job"

You say that you are "reasonably certain" that "they don't normally" draw their guns in those situations. Then you used the stat about officers actually firing their weapons as the fact to back it up. Am I reading this wrong?

I've gone searching many times for videos and articles on weapons being drawn on black people during standard traffic stops. There are plenty. Those are just the ones that are reported or recorded. There is so little data on "how my experience went with the police".  People almost need to be able to leave a review. I can tell you that I am going to listen to the enormous group of black people telling me that there is an injustice against them over the smaller group of police with all the power.

We really do need a community driven first response force that can take care of most of the things you mention. They need people skills for all that, not military training. Soliders and SWAT (relatively speaking) have no business pulling people over for out taillights.

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1 hour ago, Gatogateau said:

"The Klan will be really pleased with you"?  because of your actions/words?

That’s not what I said. If you’re going to quote me at least do it correctly, please. You’re also reading meaning into words that I didn’t say and perhaps it would have been a lot simpler had you asked me to elaborate rather than jumping to conclusions and making it all about you.

Here are my actual words: 

“It’s pretty gross how this thread that was supposed to be about BLM has turned into white people arguing about looting.

The Klan would be so proud.“

 

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17 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

That’s not what I said. If you’re going to quote me at least do it correctly, please. You’re also reading meaning into words that I didn’t say and perhaps it would have been a lot simpler had you asked me to elaborate rather than jumping to conclusions and making it all about you.

Here are my actual words: 

“It’s pretty gross how this thread that was supposed to be about BLM has turned into white people arguing about looting.

The Klan would be so proud.“

 

  •  

Fine, "friend", thank you for the correction. I've changed the quote to quote you verbatim about how you said the Klan would be proud because "people" were arguing about looting... and I was the people. The minor correction changes nothing. I'm sure you made reference to me pleasing the Klan in the most positive way ever, right? Silly me. The posts are there, the context is clear. 

Edited by Gatogateau
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5 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

I knew that there was something wrong with my response, but I forgot how to sub.

ETA I mean, how to be the sub.

did I get it right yet?

Just go for the meatball sandwich. It's much more satisfying. Just squeeze and twist and squeeze and twist.

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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