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1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Every society, every country, every place has social norms rules and expectations of it's people. I don't think that is racist or unreasonable. 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do'. I crossed out the word 'White' and it reads much more reasonably to me.

But the US is multi-cultural/multi-racial, composed of people from all over the world.  So how does that work here?  When did America become Rome?

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

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2 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Would you care to provide some sort of reliable link for that claim of 7,000?  The data I can find puts that number in the 200 range annually, (the number of whites killed being consistently around double that) so about 1/6 of what you claim, and your number is in excess of the total number killed by police during that period  The vast majority of those appear to be of armed suspects, as the number of deaths of unarmed African Americans annually is between 10 and 20 (with Whites again about double that).

There are certainly issues with data on this subject, as police departments are not required to gather and report such data in any consistent manner, which is frankly ridiculous.  However, it seems unlikely that would explain such a disparity with your number.  There are also studies out there that call into question the narrative that this is a racial issue with cops (one shows Black suspects are more likely to be killed by Black or Hispanic cops than by White cops, for instance, others that link the greater per capita rate of Blacks killed by cops to the higher percentage of violent offenders that are Black, etc.)

Now, I realize several people will, the moment they read the first paragraph, immediately start typing their histrionic replies of righteous outrage, so let me just list my humble suggestion for curbing police murdering citizens:

  1. Make unjustifiable killing by a cop a federal crime
  2. Require that FBI field offices investigate all killings by police (combined with 1, this would make covering up in a police shooting, such as convent turning off of body cams, a federal crime)
  3. Dismantle police unions (which are a huge part of the reason bad cops keep getting put back on the street)
  4.  Murder 1 by cop = death penalty (federal). Murder 2 =  life in prison, no parole

You can't legislate racism away, and you can't get 50 states and countless municipalities to all get on the same playbook, so make it a federal issue, and enough of this "cops policing themselves" BS.  Knowing the FBI is coming for you with a needle and a dirt nap will either get cops to behave or, even more likely, get the corrupt ones out of policing (one way or another).  Trump claims he's against police murders, the Dems claim they are, the GOP claims they are, all they have to do is flip off the police unions and come together for legislation and screw the endorsements and campaign donations.

But, they won't, because this isn't about race or justice to them, it's about politics.

The source comes from "Mapping police violence." 

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2020/05/mapping-police-killings-black-americans-200531105741757.html

I didn't look at it in more detail because the claim being refuted hadn't, so it wasn't necessary and not easy on a phone to develop points with more subtlety 

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42 minutes ago, Lilathvom said:

 

ltimately, while I sympathize with George Floyd's family, and I think the arresting officer should be held responsible for criminal negligence resulting in Floyd's death, the reality is that George Floyd used meth, and fentanyl, and he was convicted of armed robbery. He didn't deserve to die

Stop right there.

You know, I do appreciate when the racists identify themselves, but FFS. 

ETA: I just caught the "criminal negligence" part. It was straight up murder. "Negligence"?????

Edited by Sylvia Tamalyn
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10 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No

So my question was: Are you seeing the other side to these protests, where the police are reacting violently to peaceful protests? Am I understanding that this is your response? No, you're not seeing the violence perpetrated by the police? or?

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

but then this is the other side of the coin:

The thing with this is: I haven't seen anyone condoning violence during protests. Full stop. From watching the video, even the police officer says "It was random acts of violence." How does that weigh against actual video of police attacking protesters and media? Meanwhile, you have police officers on social media doing things like this: http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-police-officer-urges-looting-of-cedar-riverside-arresting-press/571046391

I'm honestly trying to understand how these two things are being conflated. The only thing I can come up with is you're simply not seeing what I'm seeing.

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5 minutes ago, Lilathvom said:

I am inclined to think that the police should enforce the curfew, yes. I also think they have a right to defend themselves from a perceived threat.

Curfews are implemented, at night, because the police can't see in the dark. If you are out in violation of a curfew, they can reasonably assume that your intent is criminal.

You have no legal right to protest during a riot, which is also during a pandemic. Go home.

Would you agree that the force used by the officer should be reasonable and proportionate to the perceived threat, or does anything go?   And how reasonable does the officer's perception of the threat have to be?    I'm thinking of, perhaps, a rather nervous and inexperienced officer panicking and shooting at anyone who moved.     

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9 minutes ago, Lilathvom said:

If you get shot by the police, because you are running around 'protesting' during a riot, during a pandemic, don't expect any sympathy from me.

I always thought executions should be limited to the most heinous of criminals who callously murder people in cold blood.

You're really okay with a cop being judge, jury, and executioner? 

4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Every society, every country, every place has social norms rules and expectations of it's people. I don't think that is racist or unreasonable. 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do'. I crossed out the word 'White' and it reads much more reasonably to me.

Except in many cases this involves things like black women being asked to not wear their hair natural, or black men being told to cut off their dreads. You really don't find that racist?

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43 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Excuse me?  I never said that.  I said I prefer the lighter hair and skins in SL because of my eyes and that the darker skins and hairs are more difficult to see and the dark hairs have less definition in SL.

As far as the black doll, I thought she meant the children were given dolls with no pre-existing prejudice and were choosing by color only.  

The question being asked was why even black children prefer white dolls. You theorized that was due to our eyes, then cited SL as evidence. Though I was being somewhat facetious, I don't follow your logic.

Regarding the research into the beginnings of racial bias in children, your supposition that they'd tested children with no racial bias also confuses me. Why would the researchers pre-screen applicants to ensure they do not possess the thing they are trying to detect?

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Just now, Innula Zenovka said:

I'm thinking of, perhaps, a rather nervous and inexperienced officer panicking and shooting at anyone who moved.  

Well, that's my concern as well, as well as the concern of the government. Go home. The curfew is implemented for this very reason, so that police dealing with armed criminals can focus on the people throwing Molotov cocktails and trying to kill police officers.

If you are out after the curfew, I can totally understand that a police officer might feel threatened by you. They might be afraid you have a gun, or a bomb. When you violate a curfew knowingly, and intentionally seekto disrupt legitimate police activities - well, I'm not going to be very sympathetic if the police make a mistake. Go home. It's simple enough. Don't violate curfews. They are for your own safety.
 

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7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But the US is multi-cultural/multi-racial, composed of people from all over the world.  So how does that work here?  When did America become Rome?

I've only lived in multi-racial communities.  Our local leaders just in our City Hall are all ethnicities.  

But, I do feel some of the presumed ways blacks are supposed to be is very old-fashioned and some of the presumed ways whites are supposed to be is very old-fashioned and it keeps us in a box of unreality for a lot of communities who also share jobs and are all kinds of people, neighbors, team players, etc.  

I know a black woman who collects beautiful carvings from Africa and loves to celebrate her roots, but my Dad also loved carvings from Africa and collected them too.  

I feel this thread is bringing up too many old-fashioned stereotypes that many in multi-racial communities have never seen except in documentaries from a long time ago because they don't exist in many communities any more, such as those seen in the old documentaries.

We set aside times to celebrate our cultural roots here as best as possible too.  I don't have too many celebrations of Polish roots though as those seem to have been lost in many ways to society as a whole and mostly Polish are known for their Polka when in fact Polish people were such amazing artists and composers, Hilter stole over half the artworks and music.  

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9 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The question being asked was why even black children prefer white dolls. You theorized that was due to our eyes, then cited SL as evidence. Though I was being somewhat facetious, I don't follow your logic.

Regarding the research into the beginnings of racial bias in children, your supposition that they'd tested children with no racial bias also confuses me. Why would the researchers pre-screen applicants to ensure they do not possess the thing they are trying to detect?

I think you are blowing things out of proportion as I already explained myself.  I thought she said it was based on black dolls by children.  Children do not have prejudice unless it is taught to them.  I thought she meant they were choosing via the color, the color black.  I don't want to explain that again.

 

Edited by JanuarySwan
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3 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

I feel this thread is bringing up too many old-fashioned stereotypes that many in multi-racial communities have never seen except in documentaries from a long time ago because they don't exist in many communities any more, such as those seen in the old documentaries.

Well I go by my experience in the world, and by what POC tell me, and by the racial bias I see evidenced in Social Science experiments.  It's never easy to know the full truth for sure.

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1 minute ago, Lilathvom said:

If you are out after the curfew, I can totally understand that a police officer might feel threatened by you. They might be afraid you have a gun, or a bomb. When you violate a curfew knowingly, and intentionally seekto disrupt legitimate police activities - well, I'm not going to be very sympathetic if the police make a mistake. Go home. It's simple enough. Don't violate curfews. They are for your own safety.

The legal punishment for breaking curfew is not death. It's also incredibly stupid for anyone to assume a person out after curfew is a criminal with a gun or bomb. Hundreds of thousands of people were out after curfew this past week and you believe the police should assume every single one of them have a gun or a bomb? What about people legally carrying a gun? It's legal in most states, but you're saying they should be assumed to be criminal? And killed? 

Also, David McAtee was in his own home, in his own kitchen, on his own private property when police killed him dead while enforcing the curfew. 

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2 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

I think you are blowing things out of proportion as I already explained myself.  I thought she said it was based on black dolls by children.  Children do not have prejudice unless it is taught to them.  I thought she meant they were choosing via the color, the color black.  I don't want to explain that again.

It's really the same thing....Black people and black skin.  

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Here's another thing I want to discuss: Why is no one talking about how militarized the police are in the US? 4.3 billion dollars in military surplus pumped into police departments? Military surplus that is more likely to be deployed in minority neighborhoods? 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/police-militarization-fails-to-protect-officers-and-targets-black-communities-study-finds

That article is from 2018.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the mock outrage against this, when the writing has been on the wall (pun intended) for a long time.

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11 minutes ago, Lilathvom said:

Well, that's my concern as well, as well as the concern of the government. Go home. The curfew is implemented for this very reason, so that police dealing with armed criminals can focus on the people throwing Molotov cocktails and trying to kill police officers.

If you are out after the curfew, I can totally understand that a police officer might feel threatened by you. They might be afraid you have a gun, or a bomb. When you violate a curfew knowingly, and intentionally seekto disrupt legitimate police activities - well, I'm not going to be very sympathetic if the police make a mistake. Go home. It's simple enough. Don't violate curfews. They are for your own safety.
 

What about when you're in your house?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LozQg0oX-Gw

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2 hours ago, JanuarySwan said:

No, after reading your posts, I was just trying to make you see there are other people other than black who have been innocently brutalized or murdered by police.  But, you want to make it all about you and your people.

As far as you bringing up Jewish in another post, Jewish is a religion of all colors of people, including blacks.  My parents were friends with a black man who was Jewish.  

The world is made up of all kinds of people who have been innocently brutalized by police everywhere and not just in the United States.  To take on just one realm of it and say it's the focus, I can't do that because it is not the only focus.  

Then don’t, we never said stop standing up for everyone else you feel needs attention. But right now my main concern is my black community just like how last year it was me standing side by side with my friends who are from Hong Kong and I stood with them after i sat down and first understood what was happening.

What people forget over and over and over again is there will be always be a far left and a far right to any movement, those people make it seem like you HAVE to choose a side or ***** off but what the internet blinds us from is that the majority of us stand in the middle, willing to help whoever is in need at any specific time. 
 

this is an extreme example but if i was living during the Nazi era and a Jewish friend asked me to stand by them in the US for the wrong being done to there people my response would not be “ sorry i cannot back anything that does mot take into account everyone else” i will get my butt up and ask “how can i help? Tell me what is happening and how may I assist?”

again these are my own opinions but we see most of the extremists online and forget that they simply do not make up the majority. 

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2 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Here's another thing I want to discuss: Why is no one talking about how militarized the police are in the US? 4.3 billion dollars in military surplus pumped into police departments? Military surplus that is more likely to be deployed in minority neighborhoods?

And that when we're talking about defunding the police, we're talking about defunding this militarization and reinvesting it in different ways that will benefit all communities. 

Defunding the police seems extreme until you realize we've been defunding education for years. (I stole that from Twitter, but it's true)

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18 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Could you cite that again plus I think you are blowing things out of proportion as I already explained myself.  I thought she said it was based on black dolls by children.  Children do not have prejudice unless it is taught to them.  I thought she meant they were choosing via the color, the color black.  I don't want to explain that again.

If the study is important to you, please study the study.  I don't have time right now.  

I believe your explanation revealed that you didn't understand the study. That can be excused to some degree, as you hadn't read it. I also believe there was sufficient context for most people to get some grasp of it.

I believe I've read the same study Luna mentioned, and others that support the conclusion. I don't think studying them further would be a good use of my time. I'd be more interested in any new research that contradicts those studies.

11 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Did they have do a study to see what color children preferred from just a crayon for example?  

January, I suggest you drop this subject. You appear out of your depth here and I believe continued discussion will only make that more apparent to me, and potentially others.

ETA: I agree with you on some things. I do not wish you to drop out of the conversation, just to back away from this little part of it if you don't have the time or inclination to come up to speed on it.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:
4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's really the same thing....Black people and black skin.  

Did they have do a study to see what color children preferred from just a crayon for example?  

I think you're missing the point here. The prejudice in White society has been leveled against POC simply because they have varying degrees of browner skin. So the child is choosing based on what they've internalized via society, to prefer the darker or lighter color of skin.

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19 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:
Police Deaths % of Deaths % of Population
White (399) 40% 60.4%
Black (209) 20.9% 13.4%
Latinx (148) 14.9% 18.3%

 

 

 

These are numbers from 2018. Explain the disparity. 

That disparity has been explained multiple times by multiple studies.  Blacks account 47.1% of the murderers in the US (for 43.5% of the homicide victims and, all mostly the result of Black on Black crime), and 60% of the robberies.  Cops generally only use force when interacting with criminals, particularly violent criminals.  If a group accounts for almost 50% of the violent crime, it would make sense that they would be 50% of the people killed by cops.  Blacks actually consist of a far lower percentage than one would expect on that basis.

The group being disproportionately killed is Hispanics, who account for less than 5% of the murderers but die at the hands of law enforcement by 3 times that rate.

And, since we're talking about racial disparities, more than twice as many Whites are murdered by Blacks than vice versa:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

Oh, and on the related subject of hate crimes: 

Of the 6,266 known offenders in 2018 (most current year DOJ stats are available https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/hate-crime-statistics😞

  • 53.6% were White
  • 24.0% were Black or African American
  • 12.9% race unknown

 

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3 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Here's another thing I want to discuss: Why is no one talking about how militarized the police are in the US? 4.3 billion dollars in military surplus pumped into police departments? Military surplus that is more likely to be deployed in minority neighborhoods? 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/police-militarization-fails-to-protect-officers-and-targets-black-communities-study-finds

That article is from 2018.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the mock outrage against this, when the writing has been on the wall (pun intended) for a long time.

I can only speak for myself, Janet.  We didn't hear about it or it wasn't talked about.   Plus, pre-internet maybe of which the internet is also considered the information age.  Our community sadly had it's highest crime rate in domestic violence and speeding tickets which is a rather hush-hush kind of thing as far as domestic violence.  My significant other at the time told me that about our community.   It was a peaceful community.  I was just living my life like anyone else, though I'm not much of a news watcher for the last ten years or so.  

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