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7 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:
12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's mostly peaceful, but there is some violence yes, and I understand why (in some cases):

President Lyndon Johnson

What did you expect? I don’t know why we’re so surprised. When you put your foot on a man’s neck and hold him down for three hundred years, and then you let him up, what’s he going to do? He’s going to knock your block off.

 

But, that's double talk.  You say it's peaceful but it's not peaceful.  We don't have a right in this country to do anything else.  Should all those of a different colors be doing the same things such as knocking someone's block off?  Personally, I don't think so.   Because it's just behavior for behavior and what if you get the wrong person?  We have to make a more peaceful police for all and more accountability for all but the right way.  

This man who murdered this man needs to be held accountable.  He is going to be held accountable.  But, the craziness just keeps going on in the middle of a pandemic.   

No, I'm saying that when we do see violence I sympathize with why that is (that excludes griefers who are just out to have a 'good' time however).

You never responded to the following:

What you're saying feels logical to me, and I support helping all oppressed peoples.

However, something strange happens in America when Blacks try to get others to focus on their oppression. Unlike with other oppressed causes and people, we get people coming out of the woodwork to make sure we know about other causes.  For example, I've witnessed Native American protests and you just don't see people trying to insist that other groups have problems too. Or when someone has a "save the endangered bird" campaign you don't see pushback from others saying we should have a "save the endangered mammals" campaign.  This makes me think we don't actually value the concerns of Blacks when we frequently respond to their concerns with a "what about X and we need to focus on these other oppressed people too".

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

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Just now, Luna Bliss said:

Tell me how defacing some dumb statue representing one of your war heroes compares to the ongoing oppression of Blacks that keeps our boots on their neck in this country, the current slave trade of American prisons, and to something like this:

Our dumb statue helped put an end to Hitler, the person who you know, was responsible for the holocaust and spent perhaps a solid 10 years all in all dropping bombs on people in my country.

But no, I suppose racism in America makes it OK to defile our historic icons without a care in the 🤬 world.

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19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

No, I'm saying that when we do see violence I sympathize with why that is (that excludes griefers who are just out to have a 'good' time however).

You never responded to the following:

What you're saying feels logical to me, and I support helping all oppressed peoples.

However, something strange happens in America when Blacks try to get others to focus on their oppression. Unlike with other oppressed causes and people, we get people coming out of the woodwork to make sure we know about other causes.  For example, I've witnessed Native American protests and you just don't see people trying to insist that other groups have problems too. Or when someone has a "save the endangered bird" campaign you don't see pushback from others saying we should have a "save the endangered mammals" campaign.  This makes me think we don't actually value the concerns of Blacks when we frequently respond to their concerns with a "what about X and we need to focus on these other oppressed people too".

I did not see that post.  The thread is moving too fast.  It's not only moving so fast that I feel most people are not even listening to each other. 

The thing with this is - it's The Police.  The Police govern us all.  It's a pretty big deal to be taking on The Police and their ways of brutality that has affected the many not only the one.   If people want to have Police reform, it involves us all and many with their own private story to tell that is no less important.    

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16 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Defacing property was just shown above with grave sites and the BLM spray painted on people's headstones.  The protesting has turned violent in many areas.  It is not peaceful but it is not fully known who is doing what as it's far too many people.  

Prove that BLM protesters did it.

Boogaloo arrests reveal new extremist agenda to hijack protests

There are thousands and thousands of hours of video of peaceful protest, but go ahead and focus on the few instances of looting and violence that may or may not have been perpetrated by BLM protesters instead of the actual issues. 

Not only that, but... where's your outrage about sports riots that are nothing more than a bunch of white people getting violent because their sports team lost, or even won in some cases? 

If you're angry about those white riots, and there were also many people involved in those were who were peaceful as well, can't we separate the two? The peaceful vs the violent? And separate the violent and lump that part in with all these other instances of white people rioting and look at that as a single problem, while understanding that there is meaning behind the protests of today?

Because it feels like because the violence is being done by black people (except often it isn't), that it's being used to invalidate the very real problem of police brutality against black people. 

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15 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I suppose racism in America makes it OK to defile our historic icons without a care in the 🤬 world.

Then I guess the BLM protests in the UK were entirely pointless (they weren't) as you seem pretty sure that's not a problem there (It is).

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11 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:
19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Tell me how defacing some dumb statue representing one of your war heroes compares to the ongoing oppression of Blacks that keeps our boots on their neck in this country, the current slave trade of American prisons, and to something like this:

Our dumb statue helped put an end to Hitler, the person who you know, was responsible for the holocaust and spent perhaps a solid 10 years all in all dropping bombs on people in my country.

But no, I suppose racism in America makes it OK to defile our historic icons without a care in the 🤬 world.

I never said it was okay -- I said I understand why they would do it (if indeed it is core members of BLM defacing the statue).

Many Blacks in America don't feel they were ever part of America...in many cases they have not enjoyed the social contract that whites have benefitted from that gives Whites a far greater advantage and protection in so many areas.  If something is not 'yours' why would it matter if you destroyed it. In fact, its very representation is an insult -- a statue representing the overthrowing of Jewish oppression?  What about the Black oppression in the past, and that exists to this very day?

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3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Our dumb statue helped put an end to Hitler, the person who you know, was responsible for the holocaust and spent perhaps a solid 10 years all in all dropping bombs on people in my country.

But no, I suppose racism in America makes it OK to defile our historic icons without a care in the 🤬 world.

 

It's never 'OK', in the absolute. It's also equally common, in any kind of revolt, to tear down hated symbols of oppression, or to defile them. When Sadam Hussein was deposed, people ripped posters of him off the walls, took their shoes off, and started beating the hated image with those shoes. And no, your 'historic icon' is not the same; yet, at the same time, is it so hard to have to some empathy for ppl who express their anger on hated 'objects' of the oppressor?

Some there be, for instance, who will take extreme offense at someone burning the flag in effigy. That is their right. But it equally my right to understand where those ppl are coming from (hasn't actually happened in these protests, faik). In fact, if I'm unwilling to look past the spray-paint defacement of a statue, and grasp what manner of oppression those icons represent to someone else, then I probably shouldn't even pretend to 'get' their cause.

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5 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

The thing with this is - it's The Police.  The Police govern us all.  It's a pretty big deal to be taking on The Police and their ways of brutality that has affected the many not only the one.   If people want to have Police reform, it involves us all and many with their own private story to tell that is no less important. 

The criminal justice system is terribly biased against Blacks, leading to more wrongful convictions and harsher sentences compared to Whites. Statistics in outcomes prove this, along with tests conducted in the Social Sciences.  Biased attitudes develop through socialization, and the stereotypes held are frequently not even conscious, but tests can demonstrate the bias. These unconscious attitudes affects how law enforcement treats Blacks in the criminal justice system and on the streets.

I was pretty shocked in college when I studied tests and learned about the lack of objectivity in perception people hold when evaluating Blacks vs Whites. Extensive experiments in the Social Sciences have been set up to allow participants to express their feelings regarding various imaginary scenarios depicted by test facilitators. They demonstrate that Blacks are more often viewed as guilty of a crime, and they are assigned greater punishment for a crime when compared to white counterparts. This held true (though to a lesser extent) even among test subjects who were actually trained in objectivity (scientists, judges).
In tests with young children even the babies reject the darker-skinned doll more often :(   And saddest of all, even the darker-skinned children reject the darker-skinned doll more often.

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30 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Winston Churchill is not any negative element. You may not care about him, but he is important to me and I think I speak on behalf of the majority of my country when I say to my countrymen too.

My mother was British. She was a child during WWII. Her house was blown to smithereens by the Germans while she and her family were in the bomb shelter. Lost everything. It wasn't just a piece of history to her - she and her family lost every single thing they had.  She was traumatized by that bombing her entire life. 

My mother was one of your countrymen, and she was directly affected by WWII by living through the horror of it (and her house being bombed is only part of it).

She knew Churchill was a racist POS. It's okay to see the faults in your leaders, or past leaders, even the ones held up as heroes. 

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The criminal justice system is terribly biased against Blacks, leading to more wrongful convictions and harsher sentences compared to Whites. Statistics in outcomes prove this, along with tests conducted in the Social Sciences.  Biased attitudes develop through socialization, and the stereotypes held are frequently not even conscious, but tests can demonstrate the bias. These unconscious attitudes affects how law enforcement treats Blacks in the criminal justice system and on the streets.

I was pretty shocked in college when I studied tests and learned about the lack of objectivity in perception people hold when evaluating Blacks vs Whites. Extensive experiments in the Social Sciences have been set up to allow participants to express their feelings regarding various imaginary scenarios depicted by test facilitators. They demonstrate that Blacks are more often viewed as guilty of a crime, and they are assigned greater punishment for a crime when compared to white counterparts. This held true (though to a lesser extent) even among test subjects who were actually trained in objectivity (scientists, judges).
In tests with young children even the babies reject the darker-skinned doll more often :(   And saddest of all, even the darker-skinned children reject the darker-skinned doll more often.

 

That was pretty sad, Luna; especially "the darker-skinned children reject the darker-skinned doll more often." :( Was any explanation ever offered?

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47 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

There is only one race.  The human race.  There aren't different races.  People mistake the word race for ethnicity.   

 

They probably "mistake" those two words because they are in fact synonyms, ie. they mean the same thing.  How one decides who is stuck into which racial or ethnic group is largely determined by who is creating the government form for it.

You are mistaking "race" for "species".  There is indeed only one species of human, homo sapiens. 

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The criminal justice system is terribly biased against Blacks, leading to more wrongful convictions and harsher sentences compared to Whites. Statistics in outcomes prove this, along with tests conducted in the Social Sciences.  Biased attitudes develop through socialization, and the stereotypes held are frequently not even conscious, but tests can demonstrate the bias. These unconscious attitudes affects how law enforcement treats Blacks in the criminal justice system and on the streets.

I was pretty shocked in college when I studied tests and learned about the lack of objectivity in perception people hold when evaluating Blacks vs Whites. Extensive experiments in the Social Sciences have been set up to allow participants to express their feelings regarding various imaginary scenarios depicted by test facilitators. They demonstrate that Blacks are more often viewed as guilty of a crime, and they are assigned greater punishment for a crime when compared to white counterparts. This held true (though to a lesser extent) even among test subjects who were actually trained in objectivity (scientists, judges).
In tests with young children even the babies reject the darker-skinned doll more often :(   And saddest of all, even the darker-skinned children reject the darker-skinned doll more often.

I just feel like you are not hearing me in regards to the fact this is The Police and it involves us all now whether some want to believe that or not...it just does.

As far as the black doll being rejected, it may have something to do with our eyes.  I know in Second Life, lighter skins are easier for me to see along with the lighter hairs are easier to see.  The dark hairs seem to not have much definition.  Lighter hair is just seen easier in Second Life.  I would like to have dark hair in SL but it doesn't define well at all, not for me.  I am dark haired in real life and it's my color of hair preference.  Objects are objects, the artist is doing the best with what they have.  Children are not prejudiced against black people unless they are taught that way and vice versa of blacks being taught to hate whites.  Reserve discrimination and prejudice is real.  

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2 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

That was pretty sad, Luna; especially "the darker-skinned children reject the darker-skinned doll more often." :( Was any explanation ever offered?

The hypothesis offered for the behavior was that even at such a young age the children had already internalized the prevailing cultural stereotype -- that Blacks are not as good as Whites.

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1 minute ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

They probably "mistake" those two words because they are in fact synonyms, ie. they mean the same thing.  How one decides who is stuck into which racial or ethnic group is largely determined by who is creating the government form for it.

You are mistaking "race" for "species".  There is indeed only one species of human, homo sapiens. 

I hear you but we are still mostly referred to as "The Human Race".  

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1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:

As far as the black doll being rejected, it may have something to do with our eyes.  I know in Second Life, lighter skins are easier for me to see along with the lighter hairs are easier to see.  The dark hairs seem to not have much definition.  Lighter hair is just seen easier in Second Life.  I would like to have dark hair in SL but it doesn't define well at all, not for me.  I am dark haired in real life and it's my color of hair preference.  Objects are objects, the artist is doing the best with what they have.  Children are not prejudiced against black people unless they are taught that way and vice versa of blacks being taught to hate whites.  Reserve discrimination and prejudice is real.  

January...yes...all people (both Blacks & Whites) are taught to place less value in POC (People Of Color).  Many Black people suffer from terrible self-esteem issues until they break out of what society has thrust on them and come to a place of valuing themselves.

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6 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

They probably "mistake" those two words because they are in fact synonyms, ie. they mean the same thing.  How one decides who is stuck into which racial or ethnic group is largely determined by who is creating the government form for it.

You are mistaking "race" for "species".  There is indeed only one species of human, homo sapiens. 

there is only one race.. the human race. does not matter color or creed or nationality or ethic background all people are just humans and part of the human race.

we are of the race humans, of the species homo sapiens. two different classifications.

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4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The hypothesis offered for the behavior was that even at such a young age the children had already internalized the prevailing cultural stereotype -- that Blacks are not as good as Whites.

That's pre-taught behavior coming from adults not a child preferring one color over another color.  

When, you said "the black doll" I thought you meant the color only.

Well, pre-existing prejudice is pre-existing prejudice.  

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:
6 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

That was pretty sad, Luna; especially "the darker-skinned children reject the darker-skinned doll more often." :( Was any explanation ever offered?

The hypothesis offered for the behavior was that even at such a young age the children had already internalized the prevailing cultural stereotype -- that Blacks are not as good as Whites.

Yep, this is what I remember from my reading of that research. Children are little sponges, they pick this stuff up very quickly and propagate it through their shared play.

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Just now, JanuarySwan said:
6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

The hypothesis offered for the behavior was that even at such a young age the children had already internalized the prevailing cultural stereotype -- that Blacks are not as good as Whites.

That's pre-taught behavior coming from adults not a child preferring one color over another color.  

When, you said "the black doll" I thought you meant the color only.

Well, pre-existing prejudice is pre-existing prejudice.  

Children prefer what is taught to them until they break out of the conditioning and become their own person. IF they ever do.

The point is,  there is terrible prejudice in our society against People Of Color, and this must be addressed in any reformation of police practices.

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7 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

As far as the black doll being rejected, it may have something to do with our eyes.

I have seen NO research to suggest this.

 

8 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

I know in Second Life, lighter skins are easier for me to see along with the lighter hairs are easier to see.  The dark hairs seem to not have much definition.  Lighter hair is just seen easier in Second Life.

Are you suggesting that young children learn to prefer light over dark because of Second Life?

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

January...yes...all people (both Blacks & Whites) are taught to place less value in POC (People Of Color).  Many Black people suffer from terrible self-esteem issues until they break out of what society has thrust on them and come to a place of valuing themselves.

But, many blacks have over-come those racial stereotypes.  That's why I said I feel this is taking some black people into the 1950's.

Look, I'm of Polish decent.  Certain countries in Europe, I'd prefer not to say, think Poland is simply their's.  Hilter stole over 50% of all Polish property.  Do people even mention it?  Should I carry a chip on my shoulder that Polish people never matter?  And, as a matter of fact, Trump is moving troops out of Germany and into Poland at this time, and Germany is crying "Well, be a target of the Russians".  But, I'm like...here we go again, Poland doesn't matter.  

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4 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

I hear you but we are still mostly referred to as "The Human Race".  

 

Indeed. 'Race' and 'ethnicity' are not synonymous. Not even close. There's the overall human race, like you say (= species). And then races amongst ourselves. White is a race, black is a Race, Asian, Jews, but not much more. Ethnicity is something completely else: 'the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.'

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