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2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I may be being hugely over-optimistic here, but I want to believe that there is some sign that at least some law enforcement officers are beginning to "get it." Some cracks in the "law and order" facade, maybe, as police begin to understand that, not only are these the people they are sworn to serve, but that they themselves are part of the same community. So, maybe the tiny beginnings of a culture shift?

agree

we have to be optimistic. We have to keep on believing in ourselves and in others. We have to continue to nurture our civility. We have to be optimistic that the institutions that underpin our societies are robust enough to enable and sustain reformation when needed

when not then we end up with a society that escalates very quickly to rioting to effect an official justice response. A bit about how this goes:

(egregrious official act) > (complaint) > (no official response) > (protest) > (no official response) > (riot) > (official response)

the reason why riots get an official response is that destruction and looting of property and/or egress blockades (disruption of trade) occurs. The motivation for the official response to address the cause (egregious official act) isn't the act itself. The motivation is to stop the rioting  

this is not peculiar to the USA. Happens elsewhere as well. Down thru history also. The rioters of Ancient Rome for example

the expectant solution in a civilised society is that egregious official acts are prevented from happening in the first place. When they aren't and complaints and protests elicit no response, time after time, then people quickly escalate, sooner and sooner, to rioting. As rioting does elicit a response

the George Floyd case being the latest example of an official justice response to help quell rioting. The appointment of a prosecutor willing to do their job. Upgrading the charge against Mr Floyd's killer to 2nd degree murder and the charging of the other officers involved

also in other areas, egregious policing acts are being responded to quickly. Charges brought and dismissal of police officers for example - official acts of justice.  Quick official responses to help quell the rioting which is occurring, and to prevent further rioting

in a civilised society it should never come to rioting to elicit these official responses. These justice responses should happen when the egregious acts occur. And this is what reformation of the institutions needs to result in

justice is the glue that holds a civilised society together.  While law and order is necessary, without justice also then the society is uncivilised

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

Posted Images

Just read that James Mattis (former Secretary of Defense, under Trump) wrote this:

"I have watched this week’s unfolding events, angry and appalled. The words 'Equal Justice Under Law' are carved in the pediment of the United States Supreme Court. This is precisely what protesters are rightly demanding. It is a wholesome and unifying demand—one that all of us should be able to get behind. We must not be distracted by a small number of lawbreakers. The protests are defined by tens of thousands of people of conscience who are insisting that we live up to our values—our values as people and our values as a nation." (...) "We must reject and hold accountable those in office who would make a mockery of our Constitution."

I applaud this man!

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1 minute ago, Tarina Sewell said:

hmm.JPG

At  minimum the other three need to loose their shields and not be allowed in any form of law enforcement again. Maybe then others who contemplate allowing a fellow officer to ever behave in such ways will think twice about what they too could loose from their inaction's.

There is no excuse for what happened or how or why ever. Cops are not above the law, they are not gods of justice even though some cops are narcissistic enough to think they are.. And they should be held accountable for their behavior during the event and any similar event ever.

It feels like too many of these cops that do these things must have watched the Judge Dredd movies...and think its how being a cop should be. Just like those that watched 50 shades of grey and think that is how bdsm should be.

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A very touchy subject to address but I have an "ALL LIVES MATTER" shirt... in RL.... and a custom made " I love Black people" shirt to wear in SL.

I think those two shirts both the RL one and SL one say volumes about "where I am" on those "value of life" topics.

But lets put some facts on the table.  The police officer tactic of subduing the suspect George Floyd by placing a knee on this suspects neck

IS NOT and WAS NOT behavior that only HE the officer should be held accountable for.

I dont know about what is used in other countries, but in the United States of America...

the "knee on the neck" tactic is part of the approved modern police officer training in almost every part of the USA.

Ive never believed it was a safe or good tactic to use as it is dangerous an as we all have witnessed... can kill a suspect accidentally or otherwise.

"Knee on the neck" is an Israeli tactic used by bigoted IDF soldiers on all unarmed Palestineans and condoned by American government every time they pay our tax dollars to hire Israel to teach their methods to our countries law enforcement departments. The "knee on the neck" tactic was approved as safe long ago by our federal government, state  governments, and municipal to be used by police officers in performing their duties.  But it isn't safe.  All of these people in governments know the danger of "knee on the neck" yet they approved it anyway and millions of police officers have been trained in using it as a legitimate use of force.

So should this cop that caused the death of George Floyd be held personally accountable? NO... not unless we hold every government employee who approved this tactic accountable as well.  The bottom line of this is the "knee on the neck" tactic should be removed  from law enforcement training permanently and immediately.

As for the subject of PROTEST...  I am prior military... 2 tours... and I served to defend our freedom, liberty, and natural rights embedded in the Constitution of United States of America.  So I say what I want and how I feel based on facts but also based on THE FACT I have that right and I earned it.

When it comes to the subject of PROTEST,  it is a fact in our nation.... people have the right to protest, air grievances to their government and we have the right and personal duty to engage in armed insurrection when our government oversteps itself or violates our Constitution or steps on freedom, liberty or the rights of the people.

There is no such thing as UNLAWFUL PROTEST even though the government and the COPS seem to be using that term a lot lately.

LOOTING however...IS NOT a form of legitimate protest.  Additionally its very obvious when watching news footage or going "down to the front" in person... "WHO" is doing the majority of the looting and using George Floyd's death as an excuse to steal.... commit violence... and destroy property.  

I do not support this at all.  I also dont support specifically any race that engages in any of these either!  When ethnic people or "white people" or *****ing martians or ANYONE engages in looting, you are violating the rights of others.  That is unconstitutional... and morally wrong no matter what  excuse or how anyone presents the debate of it.

The Constitution is the highest law of this land... ( USA ) it is a decreed guarantee specifically that all of our rights and freedoms will be protected. The right to protest comes with this, however it must be proper legitimate protest.... sans the looting.  For the safety of ALL American people, not just blacks... we must all take a stand together against looting and destruction.

Otherwise that same government of ours that approves "knee on the neck" will also approve cops and the national guard shooting protesters and looters both with lead bullets eventually. They've done it before.  It's just a matter of time before we see this happen again. 

I do not have enough intel on the George Floyd death to scrutinize it.... so maybe this poor man was innocent... but many of the black or ethnic people who have been killed by law enforcement in the past such as at Ferguson...  were not innocent... they had committed crimes or were resisting arrest violently or tried to kill police officers etc etc

So instead of turning this into another race coddling "BLACK LIVES MATTER" issue again... maybe it would be better to KEEP THE FOCUS of the protest on banning the "knee on the neck" police tactic so that nobody else has to die from this again accidentally or otherwise?   

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Posted (edited)

Please don't use Australian media as an example to accompany the Mr Sniffleathon video @Lyssa Greymoon.
They contribute nothing and are NOT representative of Australian views.

Absolutely Zero credibility.
Just this morning a zero credibility ABC, (our national toilet based, publicly funded broadcaster), senior reporter, interviewed an
African American gentleman who lives and breathes everyday facts. (I knew I should have written his name down).
The gent ripped the idiotic reporter a new one for his lack of research, his gullibility, downright arrogance and insistence in
parroting idiocy.
But of course the Australian media clown knew more about the situation than the African American man.
Mr Sniffleathon appears to be the same type of clown.  

Protest during Covid-19? Go ahead, make my day. 🖕 Absolute insanity.

Edited by Maryanne Solo
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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

So instead of turning this into another race coddling "BLACK LIVES MATTER" issue again... 

"Race coddling"... really? 

The officer using the knee-on-the-neck technique to KILL someone who is pleading to be allowed to breathe is absolutely personally accountable. Perhaps others are accountable as well, but that officer using the force of his weight and his knee to end a man's life, no matter whether or not any crime had been committed by said man...that officer has no excuse. None.

Edited by Sylvia Tamalyn
Correction to state "committed" instead of "created" because anger makes me make typos
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ALL LIVES MATTER implies the statement BLACK LIVES MATTERS denounce or doesn't hold as much value in the lives of other races... Which it doesn't and never has. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

As for the subject of PROTEST...  I am prior military... 2 tours... and I served to defend our freedom, liberty, and natural rights embedded in the Constitution of United States of America.  So I say what I want and how I feel based on facts but also based on THE FACT I have that right and I earned it.

There is so much horse crap in your post that I’m not even sure where I want to start... 

But being in the military doesn’t mean you’ve earned the right to anything. No, the government cannot infringe on your right to free speech, but guess what, sunshine? I’ve got that exact same right.

And this going to really frost your cookies - it is way past time for the Constitution to be put in a history museum and for the country’s policies and procedures manual to be rewritten for the realities of THIS century.

The fact that you’re more pissed off about some looting than black human beings being murdered by the police speaks volumes about you.

Also, prior to the writing of the Constitution, there was a little skirmish we like to call the American Revolution. And just a couple years before we decided it was time to whoop ass on the Brits, there was some protesting mixed in with some rioting and looting of a bunch of nice British tea. Ring any bells for you?

This country was literally built on raising hell. If it takes raising hell again to get cops to stop killing black people EVEN IF THEY HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES, then so be it. The police are not judge and jury.

And fricking learn how to use quotation marks.

Edited by Beth Macbain
Anger typos.
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1 hour ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

At  minimum the other three need to loose their shields and not be allowed in any form of law enforcement again. Maybe then others who contemplate allowing a fellow officer to ever behave in such ways will think twice about what they too could loose from their inaction's.

In Colorado yesterday, a bill was introduced that contains many items related to police reform and transparency.  Many things are contentious, but one item that even the police are supporting is:  Requiring officers to intervene if their comrades use unreasonable force.  

Making it a law that they cannot just stand by might help break up some of that good-old-boy network crap of always having each other's back even when someone is doing wrong.  It's a start anyway.

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1 hour ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

Cops are not above the law

No they are not, but no one is saying that they are. The officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been arrested and charged with crimes. Everyone keeps talking about equal justice, but justice is being served. The Constitution does not guarantee that crimes will not occur, it guarantees that those crimes will be punished. This is happening, there is no need for protests, what happened is not OK and will be dealt with accordingly. If the officers were able to get away with it there would be an injustice worth protesting, but this simply is not the case.

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1 hour ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

"Race coddling"... really? 

The officer using the knee-on-the-neck technique to KILL someone who is pleading to be allowed to breathe is absolutely personally accountable. Perhaps others are accountable as well, but that officer using the force of his weight and his knee to end a man's life, no matter whether or not any crime had been committed by said man...that officer has no excuse. None.

I had to toss the vile thing in the iggie bin. Not even going to waste "good oxygen" on it.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

No they are not, but no one is saying that they are. The officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been arrested and charged with crimes. Everyone keeps talking about equal justice, but justice is being served. The Constitution does not guarantee that crimes will not occur, it guarantees that those crimes will be punished. This is happening, there is no need for protests, what happened is not OK and will be dealt with accordingly. If the officers were able to get away with it there would be an injustice worth protesting, but this simply is not the case.

IMO, the protests are more about the fact that it happens at all - that officers seem to devalue black lives so much that these sorts of things keep happening.  And in many cases, that attitude is supported by the fact that so few actually get charged and even fewer are actually found guilty of the charges.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
grammar
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8 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

This is happening, there is no need for protests, what happened is not OK and will be dealt with accordingly. If the officers were able to get away with it there would be an injustice worth protesting, but this simply is not the case.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, but it sounds like you think the protests are only because of George Floyd's murder.

That is so not correct. 

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1 hour ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

I do not have enough intel on the George Floyd death to scrutinize it.... so maybe this poor man was innocent... but many of the black or ethnic people who have been killed by law enforcement in the past such as at Ferguson...  were not innocent... they had committed crimes or were resisting arrest violently or tried to kill police officers etc etc

THE PUNISHMENT FOR COMMITTING A CRIME IS NEVER EXECUTION AT THE KERBSIDE BY A COP.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE CRIME IS.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

No they are not, but no one is saying that they are. The officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been arrested and charged with crimes. Everyone keeps talking about equal justice, but justice is being served. The Constitution does not guarantee that crimes will not occur, it guarantees that those crimes will be punished. This is happening, there is no need for protests, what happened is not OK and will be dealt with accordingly. If the officers were able to get away with it there would be an injustice worth protesting, but this simply is not the case.

The Minneapolis police arrested a CNN camera crew covering the protests before they arrested Derek Chauvin and he was only arrested after days of protests. I think that says what anyone needs to know about how cops are held to account.

Edited by Lyssa Greymoon
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1 hour ago, Blake1111Coverdale said:

When it comes to the subject of PROTEST,  it is a fact in our nation.... people have the right to protest, air grievances to their government and we have the right and personal duty to engage in armed insurrection when our government oversteps itself or violates our Constitution or steps on freedom, liberty or the rights of the people.

There is no such thing as UNLAWFUL PROTEST even though the government and the COPS seem to be using that term a lot lately.

Yes, there is unlawful protest.  We only have the right to peacefully assemble and to petition.

First Amendment. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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8 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

No they are not, but no one is saying that they are. The officers involved in the death of George Floyd have been arrested and charged with crimes. Everyone keeps talking about equal justice, but justice is being served. The Constitution does not guarantee that crimes will not occur, it guarantees that those crimes will be punished. This is happening, there is no need for protests, what happened is not OK and will be dealt with accordingly. If the officers were able to get away with it there would be an injustice worth protesting, but this simply is not the case.

Please tell this to Tamir Rice’s family, or Eric Garner’s family, or Alton Sterling’s family, or Philando Castile’s family, or Michael Brown’s family, or Sandra Bland’s family, or ...

Educate yourself.

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6 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Except it does. You didn't include the stats showing that a disproportionate number of black people are both contracting and dying of COVID.

A racist virus?  Nope...it'll attack anyone indiscriminately.

But there is something more to be said.  More black people are also poor, or low income.  They are in jobs that don't provide medical coverage, and are disproportionately represented in jobs that put people in the front lines...janitors, nurses, aides, store clerks, mail carriers.  So, this is why a "disproportionate number" of black people are affected by the coronavirus.

This is a sad comment on our society, to be sure.  But do you have any ideas of what can be DONE about it?  In the very near term, I mean...short term enough to affect the pandemic statistics?  I sure don't.  Aside from, maybe, putting all the front line workers first in line for vaccinations, when they become available.

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6 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Except it does. You didn't include the stats showing that a disproportionate number of black people are both contracting and dying of COVID.

So are you standing for them?

Viruses aren't racist.  It isn't just seeking out the people of colour.  71% of our covid cases were people of European descent (white people).  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Aside from, maybe, putting all the front line workers first in line for vaccinations, when they become available.

Front-line workers will be the last to get any vaccine. 

The essential worker at your local big box store, or amazon delivery, or food processing plant, or elderly care worker, or nurse, or trash-food restaurant of choice aren't at work by choice. They are there because they earn just enough to make it to the next paycheck, they are the least able to afford any vaccine (because lets be real, healthcare is a capitalized commodity and the first company to a vaccine will make billions), least able to access healthcare to attain it, least likely to have been tested (yet still manage to show the highest infection rates) and most likely to have already contracted the virus.

These sectors also happen to employ a higher percentage of people from minority populations, and it's not because minorities have a thing for dead end low paid jobs.

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