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9 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Where do you get that BLM is a non-violent activist movement? They most definitely do NOT say such on their own website -- they do not mention anything about non-violence versus violence.

People in this thread have continually said that BLM does not equate with violence and that the violence and looting are not because of BLM.  Then again, others have commented that the violence is making it difficult for them to stay on the side of the protesters.

While many reports do suggest that most of the rioting is being instigating by two other factions, I simply commented that BLM does not help their message by not officially stating that they are against the violence.

People call out others for not taking a stand, not actually coming out and saying something against the police brutality -- stating that by saying nothing, they are in fact, passively agreeing with it.  So WHY is the same standard NOT held for BLM and their non-declared stance on the violence and looting that is a very, very common outcome of these protests.

 

Question is, do they *have* to say it?! Or, put differently, is our inability to find a statement (I haven't look for one, but I believe you) on their website, or wherever, an immediate sign of being suspect? I hope not.

As for violence occuring, yes, "looting s a very, very common outcome of these protests." But isn't looting a very, very common outcome of pretty much all social unrest? Not condoning looting, in any way; just saying I see no reason to link looting and violence to BLM per se. They seem to be more confrontational about it, true. But considering nothing is ever being done, substantially, with all-white juries as good as constantly clearing these cops, one has to wonder whether getting angrier is not also a very, very common outcome of years and years of injustices perpetrated upon you.

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

We had a major riot even where I live, which is really a kind of overgrown cow town. The issues have morphed beyond BLM into concerns about treatment of Black people in all areas, including the disproportionate Covid deaths.  I'm concerned how far this is going to go, as civil unrest and rioting continues to spread.

I know Luna and the media has been all over the map with information along with sometimes just silent.  I have never seen such shoddy media in all my life.

My county, the County of Los Angeles, is not under control yet from COVID-19.  There was a report (update) from The County of Los Angeles and other counties in Southern California.  I read it yesterday.  There was some information in there regarding our black brothers and sisters in that it said more blacks are disproportionately dying as compared to those of Caucasian and other ethnicities.  The report stated the possible reason for this is stress and having had to lead a more stressful life in order to over-come the many things they have had to over-come.  I think this is a very real possibility and worry for them out rioting in order for their voice to be heard at this time.  

That's all I wanted to say.  Sorry if it seems off topic but I am worried.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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41 minutes ago, Robin Kiyori said:

I just want to clear up one misconception that seems to be going around.

 

Antifa is not the cause of the escalation of the protests/riots. Antifa is not some scary evil organisation. Heck it is not a good orginsatlion either. Or any kind of group.

It's a word. It's short for anti-fascism.  I can safely say that everyone in this thread is against fascism right?  Not a controversial statement.

Now  since antifa is merely a word and belif that fascists are bad. Anyone can be antifa. I am.antifa, you are antifa.

Now some people do organize to ensure fascists don't do a facsism in their areas.  Another good thing.

 

It also however means that because of just being a word. Anyone can either blame it for other people's actions or claim to be one. When in actuality they're a bad seed.

 

The current escalation is the fault of the police,  not antifa, not BLM. 

The police's brutality is the cause and the symptoms.   Please don't lay blame and instead, remember the words of a great Black man.

"A riot is the language of the unheard."

That's such a nice quote..."A riot is the language of the unheard".    Personally, I don't condone violence in a riot yet I know it sometimes must be a part of it. All major revolutions in the past contained some violence.  Power does not give itself up willingly.

However Antifa really is a group, and I think they are responsible for much of the violence we are seeing in the protests.  I've seen twitter feeds where BLM protesters are begging Antifa to stop the violence and destruction.  Here's a little more info about what Antifa is:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/us/what-is-antifa.html

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11 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

There was some information in there regarding our black brothers and sisters in that it said more blacks are disproportionately dying as compared to those of Caucasian and other races.  The report stated the possible reason for this is stress and having had to lead a more stressful life in order to over-come the many things they have had to over-come.  I think this is a very real possibility and worry for them out rioting in order for their voice to be heard at this time.  

I would not doubt that stress is behind it, plus undernourished bodies that aren't as resistant to disease. When you're poor it's difficult to purchase decent food.  There might be a genetic component. Hopefully more research will reveal all the causes.

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5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I know Luna and the media has been all over the map with information along with sometimes just silent.  I have never seen such shoddy media in all my life.

My county, the County of Los Angeles, is not under control yet from COVID-19.  There was a report (update) from The County of Los Angeles and other counties in Southern California.  I read it yesterday.  There was some information in there regarding our black brothers and sisters in that it said more blacks are disproportionately dying as compared to those of Caucasian and other races.  The report stated the possible reason for this is stress and having had to lead a more stressful life in order to over-come the many things they have had to over-come.  I think this is a very real possibility and worry for them out rioting in order for their voice to be heard at this time.  

That's all I wanted to say.  Sorry if it seems off topic but I am worried.  

 

You have good reason to be worried, Fairre. And it is true, that black people are disproportionally dying from Corona. Which just underlines the need for social and economic injustices towards black ppl to be eliminated as well (which ultimately just means: racism has to go).

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I would not doubt that stress is behind it, plus undernourished bodies that aren't as resistant to disease. When you're poor it's difficult to purchase decent food.  There might be a genetic component. Hopefully more research will reveal all the causes.

I thought I had bookmarked the page but I didn't, it took me a while to find it.  Sorry, my paraphrase was shoddy.  Here's the exact quote and the link to what I read yesterday.  It's interesting to note that in Ventura Country which is a county by the beach that there have been 34 deaths which is extremely low compared to other counties which are in the thousands, and Ventura County has a vast population of Hispanics and well as Caucasians and also includes people of all skin tones.  I wonder if those who live by the beach are in fact "less stressed" no matter what their skin color?  Let me note also that Ventura County is mostly our farmlands, so it's sprawling as compared to more congested areas of Southern California.  

"We know that black Americans fair worse than other groups on virtually every measure of health status. And it has become all too common to blame this on individual behaviors, when in fact, the science is clear. The root cause of health inequity is racism and discrimination and how it limits access to the very opportunities and resources each of us need for optimal health and well-being. Science also tells us that lifetime stress associated with experiences of daily acts of discrimination and oppression play a major role."

https://abc7.com/coronavirus-in-los-angeles-update-la-county-patient/6104747/

Sorry for the derail all.  I will post in the COVID-19 thread as I have more information if it becomes available.  

For those who don't know.  L.A. County is vast.  The majority of the poverty in L.A. County is in what is known as "the inner city".  The inner city is part of downtown Los Angeles.  The County of Los Angeles is known, however, as the greater Los Angeles area and includes areas beyond the city of Los Angeles and/or what is known as downtown L.A.

Edited by FairreLilette
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Posted (edited)

Known as antifa, a contraction of the word “anti-fascist,” the loose affiliation of radical activists has surfaced in recent years at events around the country, including in opposition to the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Va., in 2017.

In Portland this weekend, activists in the trademark black uniforms associated with antifa, as well as anarchists and related movements, struck the journalist Andy Ngo in the face, sending him to the emergency room. Mr. Ngo, who was also pelted with milkshakes, reported the attack in a video live-streamed to his more than 140,000 Twitter followers.

Who are the members of antifa?

It is impossible to know how many people count themselves as members. Its followers acknowledge that the movement is secretive, without official leaders and organized into autonomous local cells. It is also only one in a constellation of activist movements that have come together in the past few years to oppose the far right.

Antifa members campaign against actions they view as authoritarian, homophobic, racist or xenophobic. Although antifa is not affiliated with other movements on the left — and is sometimes viewed as a distraction by other organizers — their members sometimes work with other local activist networks that are rallying around the same issues, such as the Occupy movement or Black Lives Matter.

What are its goals?

Supporters generally seek to stop what they see as fascist, racist and far-right groups from having a platform to promote their views, arguing that public demonstrations of those ideas lead to the targeting of marginalized people, including racial minorities, women and members of the L.G.B.T.Q. community.

 
  • “The argument is that militant anti-fascism is inherently self-defense because of the historically documented violence that fascists pose, especially to marginalized people,” said Mark Bray, a history lecturer at Dartmouth College and the author of “Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook.”

Many antifa organizers also participate in more peaceful forms of community organizing, but they believe that using violence is justified because of their views that if racist or fascist groups are allowed to organize freely, “it will inevitably result in violence against marginalized communities,” said Mr. Bray, whose defense of the anti-fascist movement has incited criticism and generated support at Dartmouth.

When did the movement begin?

Although the Merriam-Webster dictionary says the word “antifa” was first used in 1946 and was borrowed from a German phrase signaling an opposition to Nazism, more people began joining the movement in the United States after the 2016 election of President Trump, to counter the threat they believed was posed by the so-called alt-right, Mr. Bray said.

 

One of the first groups in the United States to use the name was Rose City Antifa, which says it was founded in 2007 in Portland. It has a large following on social media, where it shares news articles and sometimes seeks to dox, or reveal the identities and personal information of, figures on the right.

The antifa movement gained more visibility in 2017 after a series of events that put a spotlight on anti-fascist protesters, including the punching of a prominent alt-right member; the cancellation of an event by a right-wing writer at the University of California, Berkeley; and the protests in Charlottesville that turned violent.

What distinguishes antifa from other protest groups?

Mr. Bray said antifa groups often use tactics similar to anarchist groups, such as dressing in all black and wearing masks. The groups also have overlapping ideologies, as both often criticize capitalism and seek to dismantle structures of authority, including police forces.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/02/us/what-is-antifa.html

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Known as antifa, a contraction of the word “anti-fascist,” the loose affiliation of radical activists has surfaced in recent years at events around the country, including in opposition to the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Va., in 2017.

In Portland this weekend, activists in the trademark black uniforms associated with antifa, as well as anarchists and related movements, struck the journalist Andy Ngo in the face, sending him to the emergency room. Mr. Ngo, who was also pelted with milkshakes, reported the attack in a video live-streamed to his more than 140,000 Twitter followers.

Whilst my experience of Antifa resembles much of that article, it has some inaccuracies too. Including the Andy Ngo incident the way it does is very misleading. 

Read Rolling Stone for the context 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914/amp/

Edited by Aethelwine
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17 pages.

Just saw this thread.

Have yet to read it.

 

Historically I've been lambasted in SL over the very fact that I am a person of color - it's not been a very friendly place for a non-white perspective.

I'm hesitant to do much here, because... looking at how just yesterday the music black out event got 'hijacked' by "social media allies" so they could post "feel good so like me" posts... I'm wary of what things could turn into or how "allies" might re-purpose to center the camera elsewhere than the issue...

 

But I have 17 pages to read before I can say anything more...

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Antifa

Until the ones who declared antifa being responsible for the violence (and who hived them onto the same level of ISIL, AQ and the like) come up with some solid proof for their claims...

/me yawns

Just another attempt to distract the audience from the real issues, just another idiotic propaganda move.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

But I have 17 pages to read before I can say anything more...

Godspeed.

Edited by AyelaNewLife
I did typo... on one word
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I haven't seen any evidence of Antifa involvement.

The Antifa_US twitter account was quite obviously right wing provocateurs even before it was confirmed

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1221456?__twitter_impression=true

Unless Antifa in the USA is different to elsewhere, these protests just aren't what they are around for. Many may be joining the protestors as individuals. But this isn't a Charlottesville Unite the Right Rally, it is outside their remit.

My experience of Antifa goes back 20 years when my local webforum was noticeably being over run with openly racist accounts, some getting regular bans others staying just the right side of moderation to keep their accounts going. Anyway this was a local forum for people to chat about bus services and things the council was doing. It functioned that way but the politics area was becoming increasingly toxic, so I got involved arguing against them. Anyway as time went on I developed contacts with other like minded people and eventually with Antifa who explained some of the background to where these people were coming from. I ended up seeing the regular posters on far right websites hosted it the US etc. It was a shady world, with doxxing and making the most of opportunities to counter them. In one glorious episode one of the far right who was standing for election, split up with his polish girlfriend. Who it turns out was less than impressed with footage she had of him procuring the services of ladyboys in Thailand. Whilst not something I would necessarily disapprove of, it certainly didn't impress the rest of his party and brought his election hopes down to earth very suddenly, when Antifa released it on social media.

Antifa learnt their lessons from the experience in europe before and during the war. That Nazis and Fascists are like a disease, left unattended they spread. You can't just let them have their platform, they need to be confronted and countered. Whether that be on the streets like with Mosley at Cable Street, or on the internet.

Wherever Fascist and Nazis organise, they always have to worry about Antifa infiltration. That is why they hate them so much and why when they have a voice they get demonized for stuff they haven't done.

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Posted (edited)

At least some of the rioters are far right. We have to guess at motivations, but discrediting the protests would seem to be the obvious reason.

Quote

John Harrington, commissioner of the Minnesota Department of Public Safety, said there were approximately 40 arrests across St. Paul and Minneapolis on Friday night. He said some of those protesting had been linked to white supremacist groups and organized crime.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/minn-governor-fully-mobilizing-full-national-guard-blames-out-state-n1219601

Edited by Aethelwine
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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Antifa learnt their lessons from the experience in europe before and during the war. That Nazis and Fascists are like a disease, left unattended they spread. You can't just let them have their platform, they need to be confronted and countered. Whether that be on the streets like with Mosley at Cable Street, or on the internet.

Aside from lots of reservations about the use of force and violence generally, I think the historical precedent is one of things that worries me about Antifa.

In the late 20s and early 30s, warring factions of communists, socialists, old-style conservatives, and Nazis turned the streets of Berlin and other cities into war zones. And, historically, we know that it didn't work. Not only did the Nazis prove to be more effective at brutality (surprise surprise), but the very prevalence of the violence drove many voters to support the "law and order" alternative that the Nazis seemed to offer.

That's precisely the political strategy clearly being pursued right now by the Trump administration.

The very fact that right wing extremists are impersonating Antifa, and fomenting violence, in their name should immediately alert us. They clearly believe that a militant and aggressive Antifa helps them.

What if they are right?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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Posted (edited)

America (and the world) is in the middle of a fricken pandemic.  Over 108,000 Americans have DIED from this virus.  Elderly people, young people, vulnerable people - black, white, hispanic, asian, gay, straight... it doesn't discriminate.  108,000 lives that mattered!!!  Over 1000 Americans died from it on June 2nd and there have been nearly 9,000 new American cases reported.  (Figures found by googling US Corona stats)

How many of them didn't need to die?  How many would still be here if the need for a haircut wasn't more important than staying inside to prevent the spread of that virus?  If the need to wear a mask didn't override the entitlement of people who thought themselves in the "it won't kill me" catagory?  How many of them were infected by those entitled, selfish and thoughtless people and lost their lives as a result?  It is disgusting that the so-called most developed country in the world doesn't give a hoot about their people and is letting stupid win.  

So how about standing up for the 108,000 people who have lost their lives, cos they matter too.

Or is it not "trendy" and "virtue signally" enough?

ALL lives matter.

 

 

Edited by Jordan Whitt
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5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 They clearly believe that a militant and aggressive Antifa helps them.

Apparently Mr. Trump is on that track. Well, he certainly isn´t the first politician in history - regardless left or right - who plays that kind of card and he won´t be the last one. He only follows the storybook of history. And the more *we* waste time on discussing the antifa bogus the more *we* lose focus on the things which really matter now.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

So how about standing up for the 108,000 people who have lost their lives, cos they matter too.

Why do you believe that opposing systemic racism, and concern about the response of governments and citizens to the pandemic, are mutually exclusive?

I'm sorry, I'm not actually getting your point here.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

Whilst my experience of Antifa resembles much of that article, it has some inaccuracies too. Including the Andy Ngo incident the way it does is very misleading. 

I agree. And it's gotten so crazy it's hard to know what's going on, between Black people and their supporters, Antifa, The Far Right, Police, & Trump.  But what Scylla points to is scary!

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15 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

Or is it not "trendy" and "virtual signally" enough?

ALL lives matter.

 

Jordan peterson virtue signalling.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

America (and the world) is in the middle of a fricken pandemic.  Over 108,000 Americans have DIED from this virus.  Elderly people, young people, vulnerable people - black, white, hispanic, asian, gay, straight... it doesn't discriminate.  108,000 lives that mattered!!!  Over 1000 Americans died from it on June 2nd and there have been nearly 9,000 new American cases reported.  (Figures found by googling US Corona stats)

How many of them didn't need to die?  How many would still be here if the need for a haircut wasn't more important than staying inside to prevent the spread of that virus?  If the need to wear a mask didn't override the entitlement of people who thought themselves in the "it won't kill me" catagory?  How many of them were infected by those entitled, selfish and thoughtless people and lost their lives as a result?  It is disgusting that the so-called most developed country in the world doesn't give a hoot about their people and is letting stupid win.  

So how about standing up for the 108,000 people who have lost their lives, cos they matter too.

Or is it not "trendy" and "virtual signally" enough?

ALL lives matter.

In case I didn't make my point yesterday about "all lives matter" being a garbage phrase no one should use anymore clear enough, there you go.

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said:

America (and the world) is in the middle of a fricken pandemic.  Over 108,000 Americans have DIED from this virus.  Elderly people, young people, vulnerable people - black, white, hispanic, asian, gay, straight... it doesn't discriminate.  108,000 lives that mattered!!!  Over 1000 Americans died from it on June 2nd and there have been nearly 9,000 new American cases reported.  (Figures found by googling US Corona stats)

How many of them didn't need to die?  How many would still be here if the need for a haircut wasn't more important than staying inside to prevent the spread of that virus?  If the need to wear a mask didn't override the entitlement of people who thought themselves in the "it won't kill me" catagory?  How many of them were infected by those entitled, selfish and thoughtless people and lost their lives as a result?  It is disgusting that the so-called most developed country in the world doesn't give a hoot about their people and is letting stupid win.  

So how about standing up for the 108,000 people who have lost their lives, cos they matter too.

Or is it not "trendy" and "virtual signally" enough?

ALL lives matter.

 

 

I know Jordan.  I hear you and am upset too.

Black Lives Matter is more about racial profiling from The Police/Law Enforcement.  For instance, a black man walking at night in Los Angeles is a drug dealer; while a white man walking at night in Los Angeles is not a drug dealer.   This instance of the black man walking at night to look for his keys and was hassled by the police is from someone I personally know who told me this.  The man is not a drug dealer.  The ironic thing here is he is a drug counselor (one who helps addicts come clean off drugs).  

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an international human rights movement, originating in the African-American community, that campaigns against violence and systemic racism towards black people. BLM regularly holds protests speaking out against police killings of black people, and broader issues such as racial profiling, police brutality, and racial inequality in the United States criminal justice system.[1]

Edited by FairreLilette
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These events can be, and are being, slanted to support whatever narrative a particular person or group believes in.

The liberals are using them to blame the conservatives.  The conservatives, in turn, point out that the riots are occurring in liberal Democrat-controlled states and cities and are obviously the liberals' sins coming home to roost.  Some are saying that peaceful protestors have been gassed and fired on.  Others are calling the same groups violent rioters and looters and feel they got what they deserved.

Certainly a lot of the looters aren't politically motivated, which would explain why stores owned by blacks have been vandalized.  It's just opportunism.  I saw one young black man, in restraints, being interviewed by a reporter.  He admitted that he'd just come for some quick and easy money.  (And to his credit, he advised others watching not to be as stupid as he'd been.)

The blacks blame the (mostly white) police forces.  There have been widely publicized cases of what appears to be racist police brutality against black citizens.  They are, and ought to be, things that everyone should be outraged about.  However, there are also statistics that show you're more likely to be killed by the police if you are white (yep!) 

But it's also possible to use the same statistics to make a different case.  It's all in how you pick your numbers, and the media reporters are really good at picking the numbers that support their own bias.

So much of the news reporting is slanted these days, in BOTH directions.  It has gotten to the point that unless you yourself are actually in a situation and have seen it with your own eyes, you can't trust what you are told.

I just hope that everyone is doing their best to stay safe.  And, while social distancing may prevent you from doing it with non-family members, please give someone you love a hug.

Lives matter.

 

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11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Aside from lots of reservations about the use of force and violence generally, I think the historical precedent is one of things that worries me about Antifa.

In the late 20s and early 30s, warring factions of communists, socialists, old-style conservatives, and Nazis turned to streets of Berlin and other cities into war zones. And, historically, we know that it didn't work. Not only did the Nazis prove to be more effective at brutality (surprise surprise), but the very prevalence of the violence drove many voters to support the "law and order" alternative that the Nazis seemed to offer.

That's precisely the political strategy clearly being pursued right now by the Trump administration.

The very fact that right wing extremists are impersonating Antifa, and fomenting violence, in their name should immediately alert us. They clearly believe that a militant and aggressive Antifa helps them.

What if they are right?

One reason why I gave Cable street as my example, there it did work.

In Italy, Germany and Spain it obviously went less well. I am not a historian to give answers but the USSR's role from what I remember was undermining especially when Stalin and Hitler made their pact, largely from Geroge Orwell's experiences in Spain, but also from Jean Paul Sartres books on the resistance that I remember struggling through a long time ago .

I suppose it seems reasonable to point out that the tactics deployed should work equally well regardless of the political position, so what applies to the far right should apply equally to the far left.

My point is not however so much to say Antifa in militant oppositon to Fascism on the streets is the best way to oppose them, more that it is understandable, defensible as an opposite reaction, especially when it is defending communities.

In my experience Antifa just wouldn't be involved in BLM, except as monitoring and exposing far right involvement. But my experience is from a different continent and a long time ago now. Things may have changed.

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12 hours ago, Gatogateau said:

But seriously, I've been thinking about and worrying about you and your city. I mean, sure, I'm concerned for the country and the various cities, but I know you.

Last night, the protesters starting marching around 6pm, I think. Curfew was 9pm. There were people among the crowd of protesters with bats, Molotov cocktails, and other weapons what were being monitored from the police helicopter overhead (I was listening on the scanner as I watched). The police and National Guard did nothing but monitor and stay put well away from the protesters. The agitators couldn't start anything because they couldn't blame it on the police because they were no where around. A couple that tried to get rowdy were escorted away from the protesters by the local BLM leaders.

Curfew came and went... police stayed away. The marchers went past the big lot where the police and National Guard were staging around 11pm. The police and guard cleared a lane of traffic so they could march and not worry about cars. They were still marching at midnight when I had to turn it off and try to get some sleep. 

It was really beautiful and peaceful and stirring in all sorts of good ways that made me think we just might be okay after all this. 

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