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Ian Undercroft

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>That could be Ryan Linden's "builder's tape measure" from 2002, I think it is still in the library. It shows an avatar height of 2.1 meters, that was Primitar's height. It was not really made for the avatar we have now.

Yep. That's the one. The LINDEN tape measure.

I concede the question of whether the unit leading to confusion was an intentional, and, therefore, also the question of whether cubits or Chinese feet are a viable explanation of anything the LIndens actually intended to do.

Nonetheless, a Linden gave us the tape measure that told us how tall someone is supposed to be, and nothing was done to correct the unintended message until size standards had already been very well established throughout SL.

I started in SL with a "correctly" sized AV, but found everything around me seemed too large. When I finally busted out the tape measure, that cleared things up for me. Since almost everyone had really big avatars, I went small (cuz... you know), only to have myself banned from sims for having a non-human or non-adult avatar (!). I finally just made my avatar as big as possible, as consistent with his cave man personality (now evolved approximately to a bronze age cannibal). Ego aside, no one seems to have the balls to tell my AV that he's a "nonhuman" avatar (so far anyway). That's not the intended result, but it is sociologically interesting.

The all-50 avatars are not very attractive. It's true. Again, I say, except for the ears, I KNOW such people. Really, I wonder how they must feel if they log on and see what has been said about them. I don't dispute that the 50's mean something other than average. I dispute the idea that the LIndens really realized WTF they were doing when they provided users with information that would likely be used to try to make sense of avatar proprtions and other proportions in SL. The arbitrary quality of "50" merely underscores the arbitrary quality of "one meter".

I accept that at least someone at LL wanted the Linden meter to be the metric meter. I do not accept that anything was done to enforce the standard, and I further asser that much was done, intentionally or otherwise, to undermine the utility of the LInden meter as a metric meter.

Pending clarification on gravitational acceleration and the diameter of SL's moon, I submit that a "correction" of everything in SL "back" to metric proprtions will not only be less practicable than acceptance of the cubit; I submit that it will be utterly impracticable.

The height standard we were given was Primitar, and the Linden meter is closer to 2 Primitar cubits than to a Primitar metric meter. You can keep arguing with me, but unless you think LL is going to do something to fix what you perceive as a problem, it just isn't going to happen. Users do not care how tall you think they're supposed to be or how large their houses, cars, guns, or other items are supposed to be. It's not going to change, ever. Even if we measure gravitational acceleration and the diamater of SL's moon.  You need to let it go.

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Josh, you are trolling too hard, that is full of fail. No reasonable person will ever buy that an armour clad robot with egg shaped feet was ever intended to be a sensible model for a human being, or anything more than an expedient test rig. You need to let it go, you have buried yourself too deep.

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Again, totally missing the point.

The point is that it no longer matters what was initially intended by LL, because the standard they set has stuck.

What part of this is incorrect?

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>What part of this is incorrect?

Everything from "because" to "stuck."

Sign of a bad troll that you just keep waving this statement around even though it has been throughly trounced.

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So the didn't set a standard and it didn't stick?

Everything in SL is the right size except for the avatars?

Everyone knows the tape measure is just plain wrong?

Such things are to be construed from your most recent post, unless you care to explain who what you meant to say differs from what is otherwise to be construed.

But why clarify anything when you can just call me a troll?

You can keep calling me a troll all you want, but focusing on disparaging me personally just encourages me to think you don't have a more pertinent comment.

OTOH... I'm willing to consider constructive solutions to the "problem" is you will.

Assuming that everyone agrees to "correct" avatar size to RL units, what are we supposed to do about the millions of no-mod items that are too big?

What, exactly do you and those who agree with you want done about the "problem"?

1) Avatars shrink and too-big items are deleted to be tediously and expensively replaced by items of the correct size.

2) Avatars shrink and anyone who made something too big is responsible to tediously correct its dimensions for the current owner.

3) Avatars shrink and everything that's too big stays too big. We all just pretend it doesn't matter.

4) Avatars don't shrink, but LL presses a magic button that changes every avatar and object dimension number to what it should be if 2.1 meters gets shrunk to a reasonable height for an average human (male?).

5) Other.

Number 4 sounds OK to me, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that's not your preferred solution.

Please either explain how 1,2, or 3 seems better to you, or what 5 entails.

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@Josh Susanto

If you want to debate whether or not it's too late to make improvements to SL then go back yourself, dig up the relevant counter points you've conveniently ignored so far and try to argue them. No one is going to take you seriously otherwise.

 As for what LL could do to fix the problem, that's easy.

1) Fix the SL camera placement.

2) Provide properly scaled and proportioned starter avatars to all new residents.

3) Fix AgentHeight to display correct avatar size.

 That's it. No drastic, content breaking changes necessary. After that, SL will correct itself over time. Just like the introduction of sculpties didn't mean overnight all non-sculpted content was replaced. Just like the introduction of mesh won't mean the overnight removal of all prims from the grid.

 

 I'm not holding my breath that LL will do anything of the sort, of course, just pointing out how easy it would be for LL to address problems like this to make SL a more viable product.

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I think its just patently obvious to most folks that if they'd meant the meter to be something other than a meter they would have called it something other than a meter.

Reasons why the meter was not followed in so many avatars are plenty. And its patently obvious the people who failed to follow it had no idea what they were doing just by noticing how wrong their proportion choices are, even within the many varying scales they do use.

 

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I knew exactly what I was doing as soon as I opened up the same tape measure provided to me and everybody else by a Linden without any stated conditions, qualifiers or contradictions, especially considering that the architecture around telehubs was built not for metrically consistent people, but for a larger race.

If Lindens didn't want us to scale down the meter OR make everything in SL larger than life, they shouldn't have asked us to do one or the other by distributing or allowing to be distributed without warning a tape measure that tells us to make avatars and buildings substantially larger than metric consistency would require for realism.

What was intended was and is moot, since nothing else was done about it after that.

But since the issue goes beyond avatars, and actually beyond the meaning of the Linden meter, I have put the issue over to the Building forum...

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Building/The-Linden-Meter-according-to-Ryan-Linden/td-p/887799

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Hasn't the relative scale debate been resolved yet?!

You do all realise that whether my little man boobs are an A-cup or a B-cup turns upon the outcome, don't you?

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>Hasn't the relative scale debate been resolved yet?!

I think that depends upon what you consider to be the exact question of the debate.

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>You do all realise that whether my little man boobs are an A-cup or a B-cup turns upon the outcome, don't you?

Heh, there's a whole other topic right there. Most people severely underestimate their cup size in SL. Not just SL, I've seen comics actually joke about how what would be D-cup breasts in real life being only A-B cups in comics. Most people walking around with "a modest b-cup" are actually DDs.

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Maybe we need some kind of device in SL that will tell folks what their real cup size would be based on their bust slider numbers?  What would the cup size be for 50, for instance?

Another aspect of cup size that I think many avatar body shapes don't deal with realistically is the affect of gravity on boobage.  If you have D-cup breasts, no matter how young you are, they're not going to jut out the same way that B-cups would, unless they're made entirely of silicone.

There's also the consideration of whether an avatar would be wearing a bra on not. Fully clothed, it's reasonable to assume a bra would be supporting breasts, so not as much gravity or movement.  But in a bikini or hater top, there would be more gravity & movement.  I wonder, with the new avatar physics being available on Phoenix as well as Viewer 2, if people will start selling avatar physics included with clothing? A corset, for instance, would create restricted movement, while a bikini or halter top would provide more. 

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Heh, no way it could be that simple. Most people in real life can't get their correct cup size, no way it could be done based off a single slider in SL. Like avatar height, chest size is determined by multiple sliders, not just the "breast size" slider.

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