Would changing Whisper, Say and/or Shout chat ranges break your content? The option to change these ranges is coming.

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Anna Salyx said:

On the other point on being able to know the chat dynamic type (whisper, shout, etc): is an example of the chat extender that I use.  It hears the avatar, and checks the area and determines the distance each member of the intended audience from the speaker.  If they are in normal chat range (20 meters) that person is excluded from the relay and the message is only relayed to those that are > 20 meters.  When I accidentally whispers (which I do about 1/5 of the time) everyone 1 to 10 meters 'hears' me, those >20 meters 'hear' me via relay, but those >10 <=20 currently get nothing.  The relay assumes they heard it and doesn't serve it up to them. 

So, the ability to detect a whisper or shout that can be dynamically accounted for and would be of great help.  No more missed messages for those close in, and also no more duplicated messages for those further out: Oh the person shouted, I'll not relay to anyone inside the default (or current) shout distance.

Thanks for the example.

I am aware that some regions use chat extenders that can broadcast to anyone anywhere in the region if the app is set up as such.

Unless the maximum range above shout can be changed to at least 4112m then I don't see the variable chat range feature being used as an alternative in those places.

Allegedly the current max is "region x2" limited, so 512m?

Here's something else that may be interesting to think about:

Governance has publicly stated that they don't have an enforcement policy on chat extenders if they appear to be operating without ill intent despite literally infringing on the Community Standards Disclosure policy itself.

"Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited."

Will there be a change in Governance's policy once variable chat ranges is released grid wide?

I plan on asking them this in the next Governance UG just in case.

[Nova Convair]

There is a difference between channel 0 and the rest.

If all channels change the range I will not start to script fancy things but use RegionSay and RegionSayTo for everything.

Is it interesting to know what the chat range is and what chat range the avatars used?
Usually not (for me), just for some special cases and if you want to spam all avatars in a specific range.

Chat extenders will be obsolete after this change. (If the chat range is adapted to the club size)

Who sets the chat range on mainland btw. if it is really a region-setting?

Oh, is there an exception for llDialog?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Nova Convair

[Wulfie Reanimator]

3 minutes ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Governance has publicly stated that they don't have an enforcement policy on chat extenders if they appear to be operating without ill intent despite literally infringing on the Community Standards Disclosure policy itself.

"Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited."

I would argue that chat extenders don't break the spirit of the community standards here. That part is specifically about spying or infringing on someone's privacy, with ill intent. Simply copypasting chat messages isn't going to get you in trouble, even in group chats. It depends on the exact context.

Chat extenders are easily recognized by their nature. Everybody involved knows they're there, at least as soon as someone outside their chat range speaks of there isn't even an announcement on arrival.

[Lucia Nightfire]

3 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Chat extenders are easily recognized by their nature. Everybody involved knows they're there, at least as soon as someone outside their chat range speaks of there isn't even an announcement on arrival.

The problem is there are systems in use that have no official announcement upon agent entry, no dialog asking for your permission or places that use them have nothing visibly posted mentioning that a chat extender is in use.

In these environments, your chat, along with whoever is also within chat distance from you can be monitored remotely without your knowledge as long as those outside of your chat distance(s) do not speak publicly.

These issues are what have been brought up in past Governance UG's.

Yes, intent matters. This is Governance's leaning as well and I doubt it will change, but I still would like to ask in case part of the push to move forward on variable chat ranges was to address the complaints against chat extender usage.

[Lucia Nightfire]

4 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

Oh, is there an exception for llDialog?

Exception how?

[Nova Convair]

6 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Exception how?

If you press a menu button your viewer makes you say the text on the menu button. As normal chat with chat range on teh channel specified in llDialog.
You need to be within 20m of the root of the object that sent you the dialog or your answer will remain unheared. If that is reduced to 2m your dialog is broken most of the time.

 

[Lucia Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

If you press a menu button your viewer makes you say the text on the menu button. As normal chat with chat range on teh channel specified in llDialog.
You need to be within 20m of the root of the object that sent you the dialog or your answer will remain unheared. If that is reduced to 2m your dialog is broken most of the time.

 

I assume the chat component of llDialog() will be affected if the llSay() range is changed.

It would be great if test regions, one with each chat range reduced by half and one with each chat range doubled could be provided on the beta grid before the feature starts making it out to the RC regions on this grid so creators can already start making the necessary changes to their scripts, hopefully with access the data in the aforementioned feature requests.

[Anna Salyx]

14 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Yes, intent matters. This is Governance's leaning as well and I doubt it will change, but I still would like to ask in case part of the push to move forward on variable chat ranges was to address the complaints against chat extender usage.

It would be interesting to find out.  I think a big push is also just as likely to reduce the chat ranges not extend them.  I have always disliked that that normal chat is 20 meters, whisper 10.  My preference is always to have those values halved *except* in club settings.  But I realize I'm probably in the minority there.  But however it's sliced, if the chat range changes are at the region level, I honestly don't see them being adjusted much in a broad sense when you have mixed use regions: stores, clubs, housing.  If adjustments are used in such regions, it might to restrict the ranges so that chat is more easily confined to the parcel level.    In those scenarios, extenders might become *more* prevalent in clubs not less. 

My wish list would be that chat range changes be done at the parcel level and be only effective at the parcel level and up to 10 or 20 meters beyond the parcel border at which "normal" rules apply, but that might be too much overhead to process to be practical. 

Just a few extra thoughts on the topic and probably my last since I don't want to stray to far from the forums purpose which is scripting

[Anna Salyx]

8 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

If you press a menu button your viewer makes you say the text on the menu button. As normal chat with chat range on teh channel specified in llDialog.
You need to be within 20m of the root of the object that sent you the dialog or your answer will remain unheared. If that is reduced to 2m your dialog is broken most of the time.

 

 

6 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

I assume the chat component of llDialog() will be affected if the llSay() range is changed.

It would be great if test regions, one with each chat range reduced by half and one with each chat range doubled could be provided on the beta grid before the feature starts making it out to the RC regions on this grid so creators can already start making the necessary changes to their scripts, hopefully with access the data in the aforementioned feature requests.

from the notes on llDialog:

"If the listener resides in the same script that created the dialog, then the dialog button is heard sim-wide." 

So the concern of llDialog, while important and needs to be considered, only really comes into play if the receiving script for any llDialog calls is different from the actual calling script. 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

9 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

If you press a menu button your viewer makes you say the text on the menu button. As normal chat with chat range on teh channel specified in llDialog.
You need to be within 20m of the root of the object that sent you the dialog or your answer will remain unheared. If that is reduced to 2m your dialog is broken most of the time.

llDialog works unlike any other chat messages.

When you click a dialog button, the chat message for the name of the button comes from the object that created the dialog.

The green (llDialog) and blue (llListen) objects are almost 50 meters away from me:

default
{
    touch_start(integer total_number)
    {
        llDialog(llGetOwner(), "Pick one", ["BUTTON1", "BUTTON2"], 0);
    }
}

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
        llListen(0, "", "", "");
    }

    listen(integer channel, string name, key id, string message)
    {
        llOwnerSay(message);
    }
}

Note that the llDialog is on the public channel. This is what I see in chat from a distance:

[11:28:43] llListen: BUTTON1

This is what I get from being next to them:

[11:30:33] Legacy.Name (Wulfie Reanimator): BUTTON1
[11:30:33] llListen: BUTTON1

 

[Qie Niangao]

48 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

llDialog works unlike any other chat messages.

When you click a dialog button, the chat message for the name of the button comes from the object that created the dialog.

Aha! That explains why it's possible to interact with event vendors from deep inside neighboring cam regions. (I think I knew this at one time, but this thread was making me worry!)

Still, I do think this seemingly innocuous Estate Manager setting needs to come with an explicit warning. It absolutely will break some old script installations in most mysterious ways, so anything we can do to increase awareness will reduce both frustration and support queries all 'round.

[Nova Convair]

3 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

llDialog works unlike any other chat messages.

When you click a dialog button, the chat message for the name of the button comes from the object that created the dialog.

The green (llDialog) and blue (llListen) objects are almost 50 meters away from me:

And now explain the following things about llDialog:

- chose channel 0 and explain who communicated the button text. The object? surely not.
- How does a listen work that filters the by avatar uuid?
- A viewer is not connected to any in world script. The only way to communicate is chat.

Sorry Wulfie but no.

Your extended range shows that your viewer didn't use say but shout to send the button text, that's all.

[Lucia Nightfire]

llDialog() response chat is its own chat protocol.

The viewer just sends to dialog response back to the host UUID of the script that generated said dialog as long as you are a main or child agent of the sim the script is in.

This means you can respond to objects in adjacent regions or even hundreds of regions away if you wanted.

The server then routes(orientates) the "chat" component to the location of the root link.

Any relevant listeners within 20m of the root's location will hear that chat whether they are in child or root links, whether in the same linkset or separate objects.

Any root or child links outside the 20m distance from that "receiving" root prim will not hear the chat, even if they are 1m from you, yourself.

If channel is 0, you will see your avatar chatting the response, but again, the response is "bound" to the root of the receiving script host link.

This 20m clamp is considered undesired since it only affects llDialog response and not other chat types. See this bug report for a request for a fix.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Lucia Nightfire

[Wulfie Reanimator]

3 hours ago, Nova Convair said:

And now explain the following things about llDialog:

- chose channel 0 and explain who communicated the button text. The object? surely not.
- How does a listen work that filters the by avatar uuid?
- A viewer is not connected to any in world script. The only way to communicate is chat.

Sorry Wulfie but no.

Your extended range shows that your viewer didn't use say but shout to send the button text, that's all.

• The message's source is the avatar. The listen event's id will be the avatar's UUID.
• Just the origin of the message (the physical location from where the message is sent) is the object that contains the script that called llDialog.

Whether or not the viewer is "connected to any script," see for yourself, the above statements are observable facts.

• The llDialog is generated from the GREEN object.
• The message is heard by the BLUE object and OTHER people.
• The message is NOT heard by me unless I am within chat range of the object.

Here's a bigger scale, each platform is 64x64 (going diagonal across the sim).

Edited May 29, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator