Tilia Pay to Power USD Transactions in Second Life Beginning May 26

[Nova Convair]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

LL should open a office in Europe .. for us that US rules are filled with paranoia.
Lot more transparant at this side of the ocean and a lot better customer protection.

For US citizens it's Tilia inc. (in US) and for non US citizens it's Tilia branch UK limited (in UK).
Well only a branch of an US company and not in the EU. (UK is no EU member)

So personal data flows from one company (LL) to another (Tilia). (If that already happened - that was against DSGVU since I didn't confirm anything) Both are unknown about security and privacy and for both the european DSGVU doesn't apply. That's how I see it.

Nothing changes? So no useful payment methods and no 2FA auth? (which is mandantory here) Just more data shared then - dissapointing.

But ok - I decided as long as my prepaids continue to work I can continue to buy L$

[Anna Nova]

I think I'm bored already.  But it's nice to see some branches of Linden Lab can do Soon(tm)  - like in 5 days.  Eat your heart out Patch.

[Micaela Amore]

23 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi Peaches2U, 

When you sell L$ on the LindeX, your USD wallet is handled by Tilia.  That means you need to agree to the Tilia ToS and Privacy policy when you offer the L$ for sale. This has been the case since August 1, 2019 and is not changing in any way now.  You can continue to use that balance to pay for land, premium etc. 

Reading another forum thread I just saw someone saying this "Not correct, sadly. SIM owner account that only converts L$ to US$ to pay the SIM fees, never cashes out, had suddenly to provide ID before being able to sell L$ on the LindEx."  

This is incorrect then?
No need for an ID?
Asking because it took a friend of my 3 whole weeks to get her ID sorted out, and we have sims to pay

 

Edit, some how copied the wrong quote before

Edited May 21, 2020 by Micaela Mercury

[Alwin Alcott]

59 minutes ago, Micaela Mercury said:

Reading another forum thread I just saw someone saying this "Not correct, sadly. SIM owner account that only converts L$ to US$ to pay the SIM fees, never cashes out, had suddenly to provide ID before being able to sell L$ on the LindEx."  

This is incorrect then?
No need for an ID?
Asking because it took a friend of my 3 whole weeks to get her ID sorted out, and we have sims to pay

because by selling his L$ he uses the USD balance.. and that's in Tillia's hands, according to different people explaining, it shouldnt need to be verified for using only the balance, but several people did get "invited" to do so...
when you simply buy L$ or pay your premium with paypal or CC, you don't use the USD balance

Edited May 21, 2020 by Alwin Alcott

[FairreLilette]

What I was wondering if there would be any additional fees.  The answer is in the thread in the OP and says "no".  

What about L$ transactions inworld? 

There is no change to L$ transactions conducted in the Viewer or in the Marketplace. This change only applies to transactions involving USD. 

Are there any new fees associated with this change?

No new fees are associated with this change.

Edited May 21, 2020 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

because by selling his L$ he uses the USD balance.. and that's in Tillia's hands, according to different people explaining, it shouldnt need to be verified for using only the balance, but several people did get "invited" to do so...
when you simply buy L$ or pay your premium with paypal or CC, you don't use the USD balance

There was something in the OP with the Tilia information.  It says this is being done to prevent money laundering and fraud and it's a law now...so I wouldn't give it much thought now since it's a law.  

Why are we making this change? 

To stay compliant with regulations across a number of U.S. states, we are taking advantage of the additional safeguards built into Tilia Pay, leveraging the enhanced fraud and money laundering safeguards that Tilia Pay provides.

Stored-value accounts (your USD wallet, payouts, balance credits, etc.) are already handled by Tilia and now it will also handle all other USD transactions (including those involving conversion to other national currencies).

 

[FairreLilette]

13 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

In all seriousness, it is, of course, everyone's right to decide whether a particular Terms of Service are acceptable.  So while I, personally, as a regular grumpity human think that these changes are minor, as Grumpity Linden it's my job to make sure that our customers are minimally disrupted in their daily activities by this transition, are aware of the change, and to answer any questions and concerns

I think it's a fantastic change and I am all for it!  Tilia will be able to see from whom and where money is coming in and from whom and where money is going out in order to prevent money laundering and fraud.  Sounds very good to me and should be a law as it is now. 

p.s.  Linden Lab rules!!!  I love Linden Lab...I really do.  Thanks for taking care of us all these years!  I think it's great!  I'm not a money launderer or fraudster so what do I have to worry about?  Nothing!   You all do a great job!  

Edited May 21, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Grumpity Linden]

11 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

LL should open a office in Europe .. for us that US rules are filled with paranoia.
Lot more transparant at this side of the ocean and a lot better customer protection.

I highly recommend Soft Linden's blog post on privacy and security in Tilia:

 

[FairreLilette]

36 minutes ago, Grumpity Linden said:

I highly recommend Soft Linden's blog post on privacy and security in Tilia:

 

Yep, I thought so!  It will only give out information with a court order or subpoena because it's purpose is to look for money launderers and fraudsters and that needs a court order/subpoena because that's a pretty big crime.  It will not give out any private information for marketing purposes about us for spam.  This is all about the law and a crime.  Our personal identity is fully protected and even protected against spam.  If you aren't a money launderer or fraudster you have nothing to worry about.  Nothing!   Hugs  Don't sweat it anyone.  It's just the law.  

From the link:

For example, we don’t like the way many other companies resell customer information. Because we disagree with those practices, the information you store with Tilia is never provided to third parties for purposes such as marketing. We want you to feel confident that you can play, experiment, and explore in Second Life without outside strangers learning anything about you which you have not shared under your own initiative.

We won’t even provide that information to the US government unless we are compelled to do so through a legal process such as a subpoena or a search warrant. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Alwin Alcott]

7 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

I highly recommend Soft Linden's blog post on privacy and security in Tilia:

 

i think you take what i mean with customer protection as something you glued in Tillia.. i'm talking about consumers rights.

[Alwin Alcott]

6 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Yep, I thought so! 

you should think a bit less for others.

[kiramanell]

7 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

I think it's a fantastic change and I am all for it!  Tilia will be able to see from whom and where money is coming in and from whom and where money is going out in order to prevent money laundering and fraud.  Sounds very good to me and should be a law as it is now. 

p.s.  Linden Lab rules!!!  I love Linden Lab...I really do.  Thanks for taking care of us all these years!  I think it's great!  I'm not a money launderer or fraudster so what do I have to worry about?  Nothing!   You all do a great job!  

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'fantastic.' More like, "If they don't bother me too much with the cloak and dagger money laundering stuff, I'm good." Besides, got my own laundry to fuss about. 🤪

[secondBeach]

So my only question is that does it change anything for those who are doing process credit already and have provided their IDs in the past?

 

[Grumpity Linden]

15 minutes ago, secondBeach said:

So my only question is that does it change anything for those who are doing process credit already and have provided their IDs in the past?

 

Hi secondBeach, 

No action is needed from you in this case.

Your USD purchases, if any, will be handled by Tilia, with which you already have a relationship and have accepted the Terms of Service. 

 

[ShibariKate]

On 5/20/2020 at 9:36 PM, Lucia Nightfire said:

Isn't LL currently involved in a conflict of interest & trust violation court case brought against them by a former employee over Tilia being created, operated and staffed by LL employees instead of involving a completely separate entity in all rights/actions? Or were those comments on glassdoor and BBB  from last year just talk from disgruntled ex-employees?

Personally, I would love to see an answer to Lucia's question, Especially with how this would impact people being forced to accept a new ToS from a company that may or may be trustworthy.

I would also like to know what happens if I use my Paypal account as i have for years now, and refuse this new ToS. will I be refused access to SL ? be prevented from buying L$ so i can spend on creators in SL ?

I do not and will not accept a ToS especially one who may be mired in legal issues like the one Lucia mentioned. But I will not accept that should I refuse this ToS, that my SL will be severely impacted. You people should have a Grandfather Clause for existing accounts to be exempt, and only new accounts be subjected to the ToS. This would be the right thing to do here.

Edited May 22, 2020 by ShibariKate
typo

[Chic Aeon]

59 minutes ago, ShibariKate said:

Personally, I would love to see an answer to Lucia's question, Especially with how this would impact people being forced to accept a new ToS from a company that may or may be trustworthy.

I would also like to know what happens if I use my Paypal account as i have for years now, and refuse this new ToS. will I be refused access to SL ? be prevented from buying L$ so i can spend on creators in SL ?

I do not and will not accept a ToS especially one who may be mired in legal issues like the one Lucia mentioned. But I will not accept that should I refuse this ToS, that my SL will be severely impacted. You people should have a Grandfather Clause for existing accounts to be exempt, and only new accounts be subjected to the ToS. This would be the right thing to do here.

Good questions but asked many times almost a year ago.   If you are not willing to agree to the Tilia TOS and privacy policy then you will not be able to convert USD and linden dollars in any way including using Paypal (this has all been verified by Grumpity mostly on this thread if you read back). 

 

NOTE HOWEVER that there is no check box associated with the "agreeing" part; it is simply a "click and you have agreed" (likly very purposefully that way :D).   So folks not paying attention and not reading the blogs and forums will probably not even notice that they agreed.  

 

TO BE FAIR -- no one is being FORCED to agree.  You can still choose NOT to purchase money or  use Paypal.  This can be tricky if not planned for. So IF you typically purchase linden dollars, then doing so in bulk while you still can BEFORE the change might be in order. You are still using Tilia, you just didn't have to AGREE formally. 

 

"I" made the no Tilia choice last August and am still having a very full SL experience. I still have my store although I don't make all that much new for it.  I currently RENT a store plot, residential apartment - houses (one very upscaled) as well a as gallery where I give away free art.  I have been and will continue to let my premium alts go back to basic as they were used for business and land perks and are no longer needed.  

 

Everyone needs to make their own decision on this if they have not already. While there may be some, I have never EVER seen a TOS that grandfathers in folks depending on when they signed their original TOS (your grandfathered idea).   That would be a coding nightmare for one thing. Each TOS supersedes the one before it.  So I wouldn't count on that ever happening. 

 

This is why it is important -- from my point of view anyway -- that people actually READ what they are signing, both on the web and in real life situations. IF as you seem to state you don't trust Linden Lab with your money, then simply not having to agree to a new TOS while being "grandfathered in" would make no sense. Tilia will STILL be handing your money.   

 

So it is your choice.  Their platform; their rules.  Your choice. 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, ShibariKate said:

Personally, I would love to see an answer to Lucia's question, Especially with how this would impact people being forced to accept a new ToS from a company that may or may be trustworthy.

I would also like to know what happens if I use my Paypal account as i have for years now, and refuse this new ToS. will I be refused access to SL ? be prevented from buying L$ so i can spend on creators in SL ?

I do not and will not accept a ToS especially one who may be mired in legal issues like the one Lucia mentioned. But I will not accept that should I refuse this ToS, that my SL will be severely impacted. You people should have a Grandfather Clause for existing accounts to be exempt, and only new accounts be subjected to the ToS. This would be the right thing to do here.

If Tilia is an untrustworthy entity then Linden Lab is an untrustworthy company, making Second Life also an untrustworthy entity. If you see this as a problem you shouldn't be using Second Life at all.

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, ShibariKate said:

Personally, I would love to see an answer to Lucia's question, Especially with how this would impact people being forced to accept a new ToS from a company that may or may be trustworthy.

I would also like to know what happens if I use my Paypal account as i have for years now, and refuse this new ToS. will I be refused access to SL ? be prevented from buying L$ so i can spend on creators in SL ?

I do not and will not accept a ToS especially one who may be mired in legal issues like the one Lucia mentioned. But I will not accept that should I refuse this ToS, that my SL will be severely impacted. You people should have a Grandfather Clause for existing accounts to be exempt, and only new accounts be subjected to the ToS. This would be the right thing to do here.

I think it's more trustworthy in the Linden's hands if you read Soft Linden's blog post.  The Linden's themselves will be looking after our safety and will only give out a real identity if there is a court order to do so because it's looking for criminals who could be using SL as a way to launder money.  Why would I want someone other than the Linden's having jurisdiction as to whom and whom they won't give out real life info too?  That would not be very transparent for the residents here, imo.  

It's the law now, so no Grandfather clause would work as there could be old money launderers in that pre-existing group.  So we all fall under the law.

I don't have any problem with it as I don't like money launderers, but it is your choice.  

[bigmoe Whitfield]

Also before you go about trusting the BBB,  BBB is self accredited companies put themselves on it,  it's not something that the BBB does it's self and results may vary, but trusting the BBB is laughable at best at times,  the company I work for, has been on the BBB for a while,  they get horrid reviews about safety issues,   problem is,  we are one of the safest companies with the one of the highest audit rates and osha ratings out there, our dart rate is below national average.   

[AyelaNewLife]

[Solar Legion]

These are the only entries for Tilia Inc that the BBB has.

Notice how not a single one of them is for a Payment processor of any kind. notice how the only category you can refine the search to is "Kitchen Accessories".

Now, go and run a search for Tilia Inc and/or Linden Lab and pending court cases. Optionally include what is supposedly being brought against them.

I've found nothing thus far.

So the options are:

1. I am missing something
2. The records aren't public
3. Someone isn't remembering things correctly
4. Someone is purposely sowing seeds of doubt/discontent

I lean more to number three. either way, before making such accusations do a bloody search.

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 5/21/2020 at 1:08 AM, Grumpity Linden said:

Hi kiramanell!  I was making a little joke, because Chic Aeon has a strong opinion about these changes, and had referred to them as BIG, and I was needling her just a tiny bit about it. 

In all seriousness, it is, of course, everyone's right to decide whether a particular Terms of Service are acceptable.  So while I, personally, as a regular grumpity human think that these changes are minor, as Grumpity Linden it's my job to make sure that our customers are minimally disrupted in their daily activities by this transition, are aware of the change, and to answer any questions and concerns.  

In retrospect, I should have refrained from making light of this, and I apologize. We are all focused on keeping the Second Life economy strong while making sure we're complying with all applicable regulations, and Tilia is the solution created by Linden Lab to do just that. 

Thank you Grump...ity. *grins*

I'm one that it wasn't necessary to agree to Tilia ToS. I'm a little disappointed that now I will have to even though I never cash out and only occasionally buy Ls. But nothing lasts forever. I just wish some things would last a little longer.

All I have ever asked for was to be notified in advance with enough time to adjust to the changes as being acceptable. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[ShibariKate]

5 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

If Tilia is an untrustworthy entity then Linden Lab is an untrustworthy company, making Second Life also an untrustworthy entity. If you see this as a problem you shouldn't be using Second Life at all.

ummm that made no sense at all to be honest. and it has nothing to do with my original post which was, if anyone actually read, directly reference Lucia's post,, which has not yet been answered.

 

in reading comments, i am a bit discouraged that not one comment made was factual or reflective of my comments. i'd like someone official to respond to it and Lucia's post please and thank you. otherwise what is the point of posting something looking for answers, and getting none in return other than having people react and comment instead of reading and thinking.

[Solar Legion]

There is nothing to respond to for Linden lab because the supposed case either does not exist or is not public.

The BBB? That was answered already and the practices of the BBB laid out as well.

[Grumpity Linden]

On 5/20/2020 at 6:36 PM, Lucia Nightfire said:

Isn't LL currently involved in a conflict of interest & trust violation court case brought against them by a former employee over Tilia being created, operated and staffed by LL employees instead of involving a completely separate entity in all rights/actions? 

No.