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I think the nipple is used as a easy way to censor. It is impossible to say: "This picture of a topless woman is sexual, but this picture of a topless woman is not".

It would take too much time to debate. Too much consideration and too much arguing. An endless list of different neutral posing, how to hold hands, is the look in the camera meant to be inviting? Is applying sun-oil not sexual? But is it sexual if the woman looks in the camera with hooded eyes and half open mouth? Is it not sexual if she has a neutral expression? If she licks an ice cream and is topless?

So in the rules, the nipple was set as the hard limit. Does it or does it not show the nipple?

It is a ton of images of oiled up bodies with three triangles of fabric and dental floss, and that is allowed. It is just how it is.

I am talking about the laws that LL has to follow... I would hate to see LL get bad press or lawsuits over vanity threads. What hurts LL, will hurt us too. I, for one, think that LL should comply with the law and don't go on a crusade "Free the nipple".

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But in SL....   maybe they do?

I've been skirting around this issue for a minute, but I'm going to bring it right to the forefront for @Kristin Linden and the governance people.  In the photography threads, pictures that inclu

My Father was born in 1920 and served in the Navy from 1936 to 1947 (yes, he lied about his age to enlist) and spent most of that time in the South Pacific. His first introduction to Polynesian cultur

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10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I feel like I'm repeating myself here.

No one offered a single counter to anything I said yesterday. Let's break this down for a moment, again.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but let's break this down again anyway.

(The TL:DR version of all this is at the bottom)

10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The same community standards apply to inworld, the marketplace and the forum. The forum is covered by the same guidelines as General-rated land. What you're effectively asking for here is a change to the General rating. The impact of that goes far, far beyond a few forum threads.

No, that isn't what I'm doing. I'm asking for equality, not nudity. The maturity ratings say "A region designated General is not allowed to advertise or make available content or activity that is sexually explicit, violent, or depicts nudity." It doesn't say "female nudity". Nudity is nudity. Period. 

10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

The opinion that matters here is not mine or yours, but that of the law. Primarily, the common view of the legal system of California, as that is what has jurisdiction over Linden Lab. We don't matter. They may also have regard to other sets of laws in order to avoid alienating large parts of their userbase.

Could you cite the law, please? Oh wait... I'll cite it for  you. 

Here's what we 'muricans have to say about what is obscene. The US Supreme Court couldn't define it ("I know it when I see it") but they did come up with a test - the Miller Test, so-named for the court case Miller v. California. Yes, California, the very same state LL is located in.

(1) whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;

(2) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and

(3) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

Applying the consenting adult female bare breast to the Miller test, I would argue:

(1) The average person applying contemporary community standards would absolutely not find the adult female bare breast "prurient". Remember, this is California, so California standards apply. 

(2) No, a consenting adult female bare breast is not patently offensive, nor does it depict or describe sexual conduct. 

(3) We're talking about photographs of topless women. Photography is an art form. My photos, though perhaps not very good, are absolutely artwork to me. Photography is an artistic hobby of mine. 

And since Question 2 references applicable state law, here is the California Obscenity Law. TITLE 9. OF CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON INVOLVING SEXUAL ASSAULT, AND CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC DECENCY AND GOOD MORALS

Which part of any of that says a consenting adult female's bare breast is obscene? 

10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

If the view of the courts is that the pixelated boobies of a 16 year old girl is inappropriate, that view is the only one that matters. And consciously giving that the okay (rather than being slow to remove the content) would have massive legal ramifications for Linden Lab. If their legal team feel the risk of the court taking that view is likely, that opinion also matters more than yours and mine.

And here's where you went right to the edge and jumped overboard. LL is very clear that age-play of any sort is not allowed. Bare breasts of a 16 year old girl is not just inappropriate, it's against the law. Why you are conflating child p0rnography with consenting adult women's breasts is beyond me. I have not one single time advocated in any way, shape, or form for LL to allow child p0rnography anywhere. Anywhere. And quite frankly, I'm incredibly disgusted and insulted that you went there with this. 

10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

This is also true with the scenario of a 16 year old seeing adult pixel boobies; we all know 16 year olds have seen far, far worse, but that's not the point. If it's a legal no-no, it's a no-no. And again, the PR damage of the company openly saying that this content is okay is damaging in a totally different way to simply being too slow to remove offending content. Apples and oranges.

If anyone anywhere is going to go after LL for anything that could cause PR damage, women's boobs aren't going to be the thing that does it. But you said it yourself right there... "16 year old seeing adult pixel boobies". Why is this limited to just women? Are there not gay teenage boys who may be sexually titillated by male nipples? Again, (talk about repeating myself) I'm not asking for LL to allow women to post topless shots. I am asking for equality. If a female nipple is not allowed, then neither should a male nipple. And no one is addressing the trans or non-binary nipples. 

10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

It is therefore not entirely reasonable for Linden Lab to keep General ratings as they are, and play it safe with no female boobage allowed.

FTFY.

10 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

If your argument is then to ban the male nipple - remember that you are asking for the General rating to be changed. Every marketplace listing that shows a male nipple would need removing. Every male avatar topless at a General beach or other region would need to be banned. That's a massive and arguably unjustifiable restriction that would drive thousands away from the platform. Not viable.

No, I'm asking for it to be enforced. Again, the general content rating says nudity and doesn't specify gender. Also, head over to the MP, change your setting to G, and do a search for "breast". Female nipples galore. No, they shouldn't be there. Yes, they should be reported. If LL isn't going to police that, but does police these forums for the stray female nipple, then the enforcement needs to be changed. 

And going back to Scylla's comments, a large number of photos in the vanity threads are clearly sexual in nature. I'm not going to name any names, but if LL is worried about One Million Moms turning their attention to Second Life, the photos that are currently allowed frequently show male nipples, bulges, women in lingerie that just barely covers the filthy female nipple. Bare butts with barely a strip of thong material dividing the butt cheeks. The content guidelines says no sexuality explicit matter in G rated areas. I consider the outline of a semi-erect p*nis sexually explicit. The One Million Moms would be horrified. Apply the Miller Test to some of those things. 

Oh, and the guideline also specifies no violent content. I didn't have to scroll back in the vanity threads very far to find guns, and on the way back to that, I saw numerous male bulges, male bare butt crack, barely-there lingerie and bikinis and one I totally forgot about - hyper-sexualized child-like avatars. The faces that are obviously children - baby fat cheeks, wide-eyed innocence, little pouty lips - dressed in a corset, garter, and stockings. That is grotesque. That is sexualizing children. But that's okay? And an adult female nipple is not? Again, apply the sexualized child-like avatars to the Miller Test. 

Your arguments are false morality. The LL PR nightmare would be M rated nude beaches with nude children and adults. Adult rated regions with child avatars strolling around. A quick search of the marketplace for "Lolita". Lolita was 12 years old. Do a general search for "drugs" and see what illegal contraband a teen can buy. Hell, do a general search for "sex" and see what teens can buy.  

If the morality police came after LL, an adult female nipple would be low on the list of things for them to be outraged about. 

I truly didn't think this needed to be said but you had to take it to the underage place, but either allow ADULT female nipples, or no nipples at all. Uniform enforcement. Stop pretending that the content in the vanity threads isn't already sexual in nature. 

And stop enforcing the false notion that a nude male chest is decent and a nude female chest is obscene. 

Did I break that down enough for you, Ayela? 

TL:DR: The consenting adult female bare breast is not considered obscene by average Californians applying contemporary community standards.

 

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16 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

Well, in the light of all the above I shall no longer post any shirtless images on the forum.

For the record, I enjoy male nips quite a bit. 

However, if you're doing it in solidarity with us poor oppressed women, thank you! 😋

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On 5/15/2020 at 12:04 AM, LittleMe Jewell said:

There are plenty of places in the US that are much more enlightened and women can now sunbathe topless and even walk around topless.

Not in public in most cities in most states where children may be present. And that is all that matters being an adult or giving consent doesnt change the laws.

Edited by Drakonadrgora Darkfold
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Just now, Skell Dagger said:

Your gentle sarcasm is duly noted.

I actually meant it.

I actually did, too. Not only do I not find nudity offensive, I actually love it. The nude male body is an extraordinarily beautiful work of art and I love looking at them. Nudity is beautiful, and I don't consider it inherently sexual or shameful, and that's the point I hope I'm getting across here. By not allowing women to post the same types of photos, we're saying that a woman's nipple is sexual and/or shameful, but a man's isn't. 

Your photography is exquisite, as is your body. I would like to continue seeing it, either clothed or unclothed. I appreciate and love the artistry you put into it, and it should be on display for all to see. And while my photography isn't even in the same league as yours, I think I should be able to display it as well. 

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On 5/14/2020 at 10:51 PM, Seicher Rae said:

The 1890s are calling. They want their antiquated attitudes back.

doesnt matter its not going to be changed just because some think its unfair. they still have to follow the rules of the laws of the land regardless of what is fair or not to others.

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2 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

doesnt matter its not going to be changed just because some think its unfair. they still have to follow the rules of the laws of the land regardless of what is fair or not to others.

You didn't actually bother to read the rules of the laws of the land, did you?

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14 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

You didn't actually bother to read the rules of the laws of the land, did you?

mens nips are not considered nudity and never was.  tough if you dont like that. if you dont like the rules then maybe you should run for president and change the laws of the land in the us.

mens nips are non-sexual, women's are. until the law is rewritten to say what is allowed or not allowed specifically ll has to go by the common sense rule or morally accepted rule of what should be allowed even if some do not like it.

currently this is that in most public places even online womes nips are considered sexual.

LL does not have to make it fair for you or make you happy. If you dont like it you can quit using sl and they wont really care about losing you.

Edited by Drakonadrgora Darkfold
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2 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

mens nips are not considered nudity and never was.  tough if you dont like that. if you dont like the rules then maybe you should run for president and change the laws of the land in the us.

You don't like me so no matter what position I take on something, you are going to take the opposite position. 

That's your prerogative, of course, childish though it is. 

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17 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

You don't like me so no matter what position I take on something, you are going to take the opposite position. 

That's your prerogative, of course, childish though it is. 

the fact you think I dont like you is really funny. I have no feelings towards you one way or another.. that is a you issue. I could say the same about you if I wanted to be childish about it.

there is always an other side to everything, there is never just one side to anything. that is not how life or reality works. there will always be those that will oppose or give the opposing view even if not wanted or liked.

Edited by Drakonadrgora Darkfold
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Not really sure what the laws of the land have to do with anything. California is like home to the pornography industry isn't it?

The issue I thought was down to the rules Linden Lab have chosen for the forum. ie that the forum outside the adult section should conform to their general rating, rather than a PG rating that would allow for nipples regardless of sex or gender. Considering everyone is over 13 that uses SL, a PG rating would seem more suitable and prevent weird situations like those this thread is about.

As for nipples on the forum bringing SL into disrepute. I just don't get that at all, this isn't a minecraft forum, has anyone making that argument actually been in world or wandered around Zindra ever?

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3 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

Not really sure what the laws of the land have to do with anything. California is like home to the pornography industry isn't it?

 

Because the rules of the land do affect what LL can allow on its forums. And yes if too much female nudity became normalized then parents or others could be offended and complain or give bad pr to sl, something it doesnt need anymore than it does already get in many communities outside of sl already.

Just because there is a lot of prono companies in CA does not mean that everything is accepted or allowed there in public or on public venues or forums.

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I'm too lazy to go through the whole thread, to see if it was covered, and I don't know *exactly* what to search for in Google. Much talk is being given to the "law of the land." What, exactly, IS the law of the land? Has it been stated? LL is located in CA. Is it the CA law of the land? The USA's? I can't imagine there is an international law regarding the showing of various types of nipples in cartoon form in a virtual world's Forum.

I'd appreciate a link to the laws, and/or an overview in layman's terms, with a link cited. Without knowing what the heck we are talking about, how can any of us talk with any kind of intelligence on the matter? It would be also great if a Linden with such knowledge could chime in. What do they actually (not guessed about based upon various private opinions) have to comply with? What is just company policy that can be changed?

As others have mentioned there's a whole lotta sexually charged photos in the photo threads that can get away with it because of a discreetly Photoshoped X. There are some beautiful, tasteful shots that may show a bit of nipple that cannot be shown. That bugs me. What also bugs me is there are a couple of people (mainly one) who is presents as a female character but is clearly thumbing her pixelated nose at the mods by using a basically male chest in order to show nipples. What about the effeminate males? There IS a lot of gray area in SL. I was only partially kidding earlier about the purple creatures with six nipples that can? can't? be shown on a photo thread. Those are my opinions and my observations. Obviously ymmv. I think it should be all or nothing on the nipples. I prefer all. LL can continue to prohibit sex acts, so showing nips is fine, fondling ain't (for example, again, don't know the laws).

Mindlessly pro-ing or con-ing here, with no facts, is probably interesting and could be a little useful, but makes me think that it will fail to impress LL to make a change.

Edited by Seicher Rae
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26 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

the fact you think I dont like you is really funny. I have no feelings towards you one way or another.. that is a you issue. I could say the same about you if I wanted to be childish about it.

Goodness, I'd hate to see how you behave towards people you actually don't like! And, no, I don't like you. I have no problems with being honest.

26 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

there is always an other side to everything, there is never just one side to anything. that is not how life or reality works.

Did I ever say there wasn't? You are the one who keeps bringing up the law. I cited the actual laws but you keep wanting to overlook that. Again, we're talking about a breast, not something like, say, fisting. When held up against the Miller Test, I'd venture a guess that most would find that far more obscene and thus likely to be prosecuted under obscenity laws than a bare female adult breast. Yet according to your F-List linked in your signature, it's a big favorite of yours. Sex with animals is on your yes list, too, and that's most definitely illegal under California's animal cruelty laws. 

Yes, there are two sides. Forget breasts. Let's ban sex with animals in SL instead since it's absolutely illegal. After all, you said it yourself: 

55 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

doesnt matter its not going to be changed just because some think its unfair. they still have to follow the rules of the laws of the land regardless of what is fair or not to others.

 

Edited by Beth Macbain
The forums censor doesn't even allow the actual word, much less the practice.
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3 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

mens nips are not considered nudity and never was.

   This isn't entirely true though - it was quite the thing when men began appearing on US beaches topless in the 30's; every summer started off with a lot of media attention for arrests and fines for men who did not dress appropriately, and both leaders and the public were outraged with this indecent exposure. 

   That said, it's been a fluctuating thing throughout history. In rural parts of many western nations, being topless to breastfeed or for any other practical reason wasn't generally frowned upon, the laws were written with cities in mind. 

   It's by no means a simple issue, and who knows what social convention will be like in another 20-30 years. 

   Still, both due to the current legislation of California, and because - well, not all people in SL are westerners (not implying that every other culture in the world is oppressive or less progressive!), and not all people in SL are adults, I think that LL should be very careful with this kind of issue. It's difficult, if not impossible, to appease the entire globe. 

   Fun fact, where I'm from it's completely legal to be topless, regardless of gender (in most public spaces, but not like, banks and restaurants) - yet it's quite rare to see any women without a shirt on when out and about. When the local newspaper in my hometown asked people what they thought, it was primarily women who were against the liberty for women to be topless. 

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3 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Goodness, I'd hate to see how you behave towards people you actually don't like! And, no, I don't like you. I have no problems with being honest.

Did I ever say there wasn't? You are the one who keeps bringing up the law. I cited the actual laws but you keep wanting to overlook that. Again, we're talking about a breast, not something like, say, fisting. When held up against the Miller Test, I'd venture a guess that most would find that far more obscene and thus likely to be prosecuted under obscenity laws than a bare female adult breast. Yet according to your F-List linked in your signature, it's a big favorite of yours. ***** is on your yes list, too, and that's most definitely illegal under California's animal cruelty laws. 

Yes, there are two sides. Forget breasts. Let's ban ***** in SL instead since it's absolutely illegal. After all, you said it yourself: 

 

LOL.. kink shame all you want. it doenst bother me really. Cant shame the shameless.

You not liking me is a YOU issue and not a me issue at all. Im fine with it and I was being honest in the fact I dont have any feelings towards you one way or another.

Besides the stated laws there are morals and ethics of community standards that sl does have to adhere to.

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1 minute ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

LOL.. kink shame all you want. it doenst bother me really. Cant shame the shameless.

That's not shaming, sunshine. Fisting is a yes on my list as well. Animal cruelty is not, nor is that a kink. 

1 minute ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

Besides the stated laws there are morals and ethics of community standards that sl does have to adhere to.

I really wish you would take a few minutes to read the actual laws. They are defined by community standards. We can look at this from 3 communities - California, the US, and the larger SL community as a whole. Using the Miller Test, a photograph of a consenting adult woman's bare breast is not obscene for any of those three populations on the whole. Since I apparently used far too many words, here is the Miller Test.

(1) whether the average person applying contemporary community standards would find the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest;

(2) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and

(3) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

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