Making things more complicated isn't improvement

[CaerolleClaudel]

42 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I really need that 60fps to give me the edge in Skippo.

I'll admit to looking at the frame rate a lot, but mostly to see how the latest video card I bought for a dollar runs it. When I'm just using it, not so much. FPS isn't a very useful SL performance metric. Sure, animations can look better at 60fps than 20, but generally 20 is adequate for an entertaining time. For me, long load times, texture thrashing and rubberbanding are all a lot worse than a middling frame rate.

This is completely one data point, but here is what I would want: Low FPS and lag are ok if I am somewhere with several other people listening to music I like and having interesting conversation. If I am shopping or exploring, I want fast texture loading and low lag, and most definitely NO rubberbanding. Not sure if those things are achievable in the same system. For the first, I guess it is moot as I know of no places anymore that have both music I like and interesting conversation. Actually, I would even be satisfied with sh-tty performance and music I hated (can listen to my own) if I could find someplace with people I liked talking with, but if that exists I cannot find it anymore.

[Solar Legion]

@Scylla Rhiadra: It's um ... Undertale. Undertail is an often used, intentional, misspelling of the game that is more often used as a title for varied XXX fanart/fiction/'games'.

As for the general tangent concerning framerate and other things 'gamers' want ... Who. Cares.

Note the lack of a question anywhere on that - answer if you'd like, it's not being asked for.

A few features here and there plus a marketing campaign that is often all over the place ... Second Life was not designed for nor intended for 'gamers', like it or not. It doesn't perform as well as Blood Splatter Arena Trash Talk Generator 55? Big whoopdie dingle doo! The users of Second Life create the content you see within Second Life. "But Solar, Open World Adventure 3 allows you to import custom made content!" And? That content is - more often than not - purpose built for the engine in some way (among other points). Second Life does not use any of the existing engines nor could you simply drop one in as a replacement (not without utterly breaking everything) .. and that is only the bloody beginning!

Do you want a creative and social 'world' where you can be whatever you want or do you want a game that just happens to let you make content for it, within very specific restrictions? You cannot have both.

ETA: Before anyone chimes in trying to claim it isn't an either/or situation - Yes, yes it is. Being too narrow with the above? No, no I'm not. That's the reality, like it or not, agree with it or not.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Solar Legion

[Scylla Rhiadra]

26 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

@Scylla Rhiadra: It's um ... Undertale. Undertail is an often used, intentional, misspelling of the game that is more often used as a title for varied XXX fanart/fiction/'games'.

Yeah, yeah. Whatevs.

(Pedant!)

27 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Do you want a creative and social 'world' where you can be whatever you want or do you want a game that just happens to let you make content for it, within very specific restrictions? You cannot have both.

I suspect that this is probably so, at least within the current technological framework.

Reworking SL as a more gamer-friendly platform, even were it possible, would likely transform it beyond recognition, abandoning most of its current user base without the consolation of attracting a new one to replace it.

Really, though, my underlying point is . . . I wish that people would stop re-imagining SL in their own image. Games, RP, shopping and so-called "Barbie Dolls" -- SL is to some degree all of those things and more, but it so much more than any one of them. Helpful suggestions that privilege one of these over the others are really not very helpful, and mostly reveal how tunnel-visioned and narrow are the experiences of those who suggest them.

[Selene Gregoire]

6 hours ago, ChinRey said:

That's poor choice of angle on my behalf. It's the house number on the house behind the pub.

That jumped out at me as being totally out of place whereas the bird was a natural occurrence. As for the sign itself, it would never work in RL, which is one of the things I look at when buying mesh in SL.

 

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Pub-Signs-of-Britain/

Edited April 30, 2020 by Selene Gregoire

[FairreLilette]

15 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not all -- in fact, almost certainly not even a majority -- of SL users are "gamers."

And is not a given, by any means, that "gamers" would, or should, form the core of a new target audience for SL. In fact, I'd say the opposite is probably true: gamers have been, since 2010 or so at least, ignoring SL by the droves.

I don't think when "gamers want at least 60 FPS" was brought up by animats that he meant SL is for "gamers" nor even that it should be as something to target new audiences.  That's just how the youngers think and the younger generations lingo when it comes to things with avatars maybe...AND just because it doesn't get at least 60 FPS seconds or higher - just for that reason, younger people will leave...which is, in itself, a ridiculous reason to leave.

However, I think the use of the word gamer, non gamer is pretty meaningless as this is a platform to create items with the software that exists which could kind of look like building blocks and be possibly for kindergarten.  Plus you can make a pretty awful avatar with the built-in SL system that allows you to make you own Classic Avatar.  It's old and it's seen it's day.  So, people have imported other items which are better.  

Still though... since LL sold Sansar and they want to promote SL again, how do you think they should go about doing that - promoting SL?  Should it only be to older people or what exactly?

Just some questions I'd like to ask for insight if you have the time to answer.  

Maybe LL should just come out and say "this is not a game for gamers...it's a world you create" or something like that.  

Edited April 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

As for the sign itself, it would never work in RL, which is one of the things I look at when buying mesh in SL.

Exactly. That's why I never listed it for sale.

I suppose you didn't read the spoiler which means you are the first one to notice. Congratulations! 🙂

[ChinRey]

33 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

... software that exists which could kind of look like building blocks and be possibly for kindergarten.

That's Facebook Spaces, not Second Life.

(Sorry for taking a quote out of context, I just couldn't resist it.

Edited April 30, 2020 by ChinRey

[FairreLilette]

26 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That's Facebook Spaces, not Second Life.

(Sorry for taking a quote out of context, I jsut couldn't resist it.

LOL...oh my gaaaaaaaaaaah...that is so funny.  Well, Facebook spaces stole or borrowed or whatever the idea from SL and added a shape which looks like a diamond and a vitamin?  A vitamin?  Oh, that's a brilliant idea.  No, not really.  The kindergarten looking tools for SL and Facebook Spaces are basically the same...except for a few here and there.  But, still this is an old program. 

I think SL should spin off a Tinyland and use this old platform/software for Tinyland and build a new platform for mesh for adults.  Where they would get the money is another question though because who would the new audience be for a new mesh platform SL?   Anyhow, all this is just my opinion, but this platform runs amazing for about 100 tinies and no lag.  For many of us in an adult mesh avatar it's a solitary life of our own avatar and jelly dolls and it's kind of sucky.  For those who don't know:  Facebook Spaces is photo 1.  Second Life is photo 2.      

Edited April 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Ivy Mysterious]

On 4/27/2020 at 11:56 PM, anonymousrailwaybingo said:

The inventory section is a complete mess. For example, you have to pick your clothes pretty much blindfolded from the category. It'd be nice to have a neat wardrobe closet where you could see what you have and choose easily. And most of the time the inventories you've purchased wont work/open.

Your inventory is a mess because you haven't taken the time to organize, which is no ones fault but your own.  My inventory is a mess, but that's entirely because I am too lazy most of the time to drag the things I buy into the folders I've made for them. Also you can save outfits, even drag picture you take of said outfit into the window so you can see what you're about to wear. NEXT!
 

 

On 4/27/2020 at 11:56 PM, anonymousrailwaybingo said:

Now Second Life seems to become an insiders venue where you need lots of "secret" knowledge how to run things smooth. Or you need to read complicated instructions that make sure you'll lose interest and focus within seconds. And you need to have a super computer to run the "game".

So translation is basically you can't be bothered to learn about the changes that has come to SL since you've returned. There are settings you can adjust and disable to make it less laggy, and the tab in preferences you wanna focus on in preferences is graphics, disabling advanced lighting model, while may cause some alpha conflicts and some furniture to not appear right for you, will really help cut down on lag, then bring down your draw distance to around 32 unless your doing something that involves needing to see far out. Oh and turn your graphics down to either medium or low also helps as well. Another thing, friends only mode is your best friend. NEXT!

 

On 4/27/2020 at 11:56 PM, anonymousrailwaybingo said:

I'm amazed how slow and lagging SL is comparing to what it was in 2012. And this can't be explained with better content and graphics, because what I remember - the graphics were actually better back then.

Actually it can, and I just did, NEXT!

On 4/27/2020 at 11:56 PM, anonymousrailwaybingo said:

I wish I had a magic wand and was able take this game back to where it used to be, in 2012...

I sure as *bleep* don't! I believe back in 2012 you could only have so many layers on at a time, mesh was just hitting the grid so there wasn't that much to pick from, you HAD to use default avi's which are just awful, sorry but they are.
Then theirs the personal reasons, like I was in a really bad SL relationship, I crashed like 20 times a day because I had a REALLY bad computer

 

 

So the TL;DR ( Too long, Didn't Read) version is

Get over it, 2012 is over, buckle up and learn about all the new features SL now has, get with the program or leave

Oh and one last thing:

On 4/28/2020 at 12:48 AM, anonymousrailwaybingo said:

I kinda hoped for real discussion about the matter, but of course some one has to immediately arrive and ruin the topic with an irrelevant comment. And I thought this was a real forum, not a stupid childish "facebook-like" chat.

The comments like the one above are exactly the things that make this world more complicated. Thanks for clowning on my discussion feed. Seems like a desperate try to confuse the topic into sh*tty irrelevant one liners.

It took me a while to put my thoughts into words and someone has to arrive and sh*t all over it.

GET OVER YOURSELF

You don't get to pick how people respond to something you had already made clear you weren't happy about. How you worded your post already made it clear you had your mind made up so get over yourself with this "HoW dArE YoU nOt TaKe My PoSt SeRiOuSlY pEaSaNt" Attitude when the first comment is a legit reason why they didn't want things to go back to how it was in 2012
Also feel free to block me, You're not someone I wanna continue talking with anyway ❤️ 

Edited April 30, 2020 by IvyLarae

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I want fast texture loading and low lag, and most definitely NO rubberbanding. Not sure if those things are achievable in the same system.

At the moment there is obviously some bottleneck that seriously slows down texture loading and since so many people from all voer the world with different connection speeds and hardware notice it, it's clear that there's something seriously wrong with the CDN servers. I really wish LL could take a look at that but apparently they haven't even noticed yet and filing a JIRA about it is probably pointless. Even if it was accepted (which isn't very likely) it'll probably take years for them to actually do anything about it.

Beyond that, a 1024x1024 texture is about 400 KB of data to download. A 512x512 is about 100 KB, a 256x256 about 25 KB. It's not much for a single texture but with hundreds, even thousands of them it adds up.

For comparasion, a mesh is typically about 4-5 KB per LI, an optimized sculpt is about 6 KB, a prim about 0.1-0.2 KB. Oh and a system tree is 0.025 KB.

[CaerolleClaudel]

13 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

At the moment there is obviously some bottleneck that seriously slows down texture loading and since so many people from all voer the world with different connection speeds and hardware notice it, it's clear that there's something seriously wrong with the CDN servers. I really wish LL could take a look at that but apparently they haven't even noticed yet and filing a JIRA about it is probably pointless. Even if it was accepted (which isn't very likely) it'll probably take years for them to actually do anything about it.

The last thing I would ever count on is LL making anything better. I mean, sure, they do occasionally, but frustration divided by improvement is a very large number.

[Ardy Lay]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I don't think when "gamers want at least 60 FPS" was brought up by animats that he meant SL is for "gamers" nor even that it should be as something to target new audiences.  That's just how the youngers think and the younger generations lingo when it comes to things with avatars maybe...AND just because it doesn't get at least 60 FPS seconds or higher - just for that reason, younger people will leave...which is, in itself, a ridiculous reason to leave.

However, I think the use of the word gamer, non gamer is pretty meaningless as this is a platform to create items with the software that exists which could kind of look like building blocks and be possibly for kindergarten.  Plus you can make a pretty awful avatar with the built-in SL system that allows you to make you own Classic Avatar.  It's old and it's seen it's day.  So, people have imported other items which are better.  

Still though... since LL sold Sansar and they want to promote SL again, how do you think they should go about doing that - promoting SL?  Should it only be to older people or what exactly?

Just some questions I'd like to ask for insight if you have the time to answer.  

Maybe LL should just come out and say "this is not a game for gamers...it's a world you create" or something like that.  

How about "Wedding Reception Simulator"?  Last time I saw a "high framerate" at a wedding reception, somebody had just been accidentally set on fire and shucked her dress.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Ardy Lay

[ChinRey]

12 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

LOL...oh my gaaaaaaaaaaah...that is so funny.  Well, Facebook spaces stole the idea from SL and added a shape which looks like a diamond and a vitamin?  A vitamin?  Oh, that's a brilliant idea.  No, not really.  The kindergarten looking tools for SL and Facebook Spaces are basically the same...except for a few here and there.  But, still this is an old program.

I think you know perfectly well there's a lot more to prims than the basic shapes. But since there are newcomers who doesn't know... let me see... this one maybe:

I know it looks a bit shabby but it's nothing a quick texturing job can fix. It runs like a dream even after 14 years and at 0 L$ it's a bargain.

/me snaps out of her Used Car Saleswoman mode.

Anyway, SL's prim system is incredibly flexible even in its current nerfed state and you can make very elaborate models with only the fraction of the streaming cost of a polylist mesh.

[FairreLilette]

30 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I think you know perfectly well there's a lot more to prims than the basic shapes. But since there are newcomers who doesn't know... let me see... this one maybe:

I know it looks a bit shabby but it's nothing a quick texturing job can fix. It runs like a dream even after 14 years and at 0 L$ it's a bargain.

/me snaps out of her Used Car Saleswoman mode.

Anyway, SL's prim system is incredibly flexible even in its current nerfed state and you can make very elaborate models with only the fraction of the streaming cost of a polylist mesh.

Yes, of course I know.  But, I have to say that's impressive and it was before? sculpties?  Meaning there is no sculpty parts in that at all even?  But still, I think this old program would work for younger people and a Tinyland.  More sophisticated people want mesh, and it's a dilemma.   I mean we love those kinds of trucks in Tinyland but would more sophisticated people love them too?  Probably not.  

But, that should go in a SL Historical kind of museum.  

Although in Tinyland...many of us love mesh too.  Our avi's are so low in triangles we can use, see and enjoy the mesh too and it all runs great.  It's when the behemoth human avatars come into Tinyland...they lag it up too much.   To get an idea of triangles - it likes 120 tinies to one Legacy mesh body (just the body).  

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Ardy Lay]

59 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

At the moment there is obviously some bottleneck that seriously slows down texture loading and since so many people from all voer the world with different connection speeds and hardware notice it, it's clear that there's something seriously wrong with the CDN servers. I really wish LL could take a look at that but apparently they haven't even noticed yet and filing a JIRA about it is probably pointless. Even if it was accepted (which isn't very likely) it'll probably take years for them to actually do anything about it.

Beyond that, a 1024x1024 texture is about 400 KB of data to download. A 512x512 is about 100 KB, a 256x256 about 25 KB. It's not much for a single texture but with hundreds, even thousands of them it adds up.

For comparasion, a mesh is typically about 4-5 KB per LI, an optimized sculpt is about 6 KB, a prim about 0.1-0.2 KB. Oh and a system tree is 0.025 KB.

System Trees ROCK for filling open areas you haven't developed yet so they don't look weirdly empty.

I remember being horribly disappointed when I came to SL and learned it's primitives were not using constructive solid geometry or something similar to the 3D CAD systems I was working with.  I got over it though.

[OptimoMaximo]

17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

No, it isn't. It's your subjective opinion.

The amount of details is only one of many factors that affect the viusal quality. Load time is another one because we have to consider the visual throughout the whole experience, not only after everything has loaded. Frame rate is one because jagged, jerky movements definitely reduce the visual quality. Collapsed LoD models and jellydoll blurs... well, obviously.

Too many details can actually reduce the visual quality and I do actually think that's a common problem with many of those over-elaborate meshes we have in SL today. What we see is not what we see. That is, it's not the signals our eyes receive, it's how our brain inteprets those signals. All good visual art is based on sending the right signals to the brain, not include every little detail because the latter is not possible even with a photo. I won't mention Caravagio here... Woops, I did it again. Anyway, for those interested, the discussions starts at the sixth post on this page: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/392780-mesh-tricks-for-low-li/page/2/. It's from the old forum so the images are missing but you can look them up on Google.

I could give countless examples in SL how the "wrong" visuals give the right effect but since I can't be absultely sure whether the maker did it on purpose or not and I don't want to shame anybody, I'll use one I made myself. This is the sign outside the Queen of Spades pub at Keswick:

There are lots of simplifications here that I'm sure you'll notice if you study the sign (hopefully people won't - this is one scene for the Silent Slasher game and people should keep their mind on the game playing). But it also has one HUGE ... ummm ... inconsistency (not a mistake because I did it on purpose, it really looks better this way). It's glaringly obvious but so far nobody has spotted it unless I've pointed it out to them. Can you?

Edit: I didn't notice until now but there is another thing in that picture (not on the sign) that illustrates even better how more details, no matter how "realistic", can reduce rather than enhance the visual quality. Can you spot that too?

I haven't read all other posts, but as far as I could get reading, none gave the answer, so apologies if someone got that already, I didn't see the correct answer, honest. To me, the inconsistency is the name queen of spades when the queen holds a pike. 

[ChinRey]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, of course I know...but I have to say that's impressive and it was before? sculpties?  Meaning there is no sculpty parts in that at all even?

That's right.

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

But still, I think this old program would work for younger people.

Well, they're quite happy with Minecraft.

But I do agree, prims as it is today is a bit too limited on their own. They had to seriously nerf it to make it work with any computers at all back in 2002 though and there are ltos of ways to expand it to allow more shapes. Also of course, there's no reason why it can't be combined with meshes to fill in the "gaps".

  

8 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

I remember being horribly disappointed when I came to SL and learned it's primitives were not using constructive solid geometry or something similar to the 3D CAD systems I was working with.  I got over it though.

This is what Avi Bar-Zeev said about it himself:

Quote

An ideal solution might work like Constructive Solid Geometry, where simple shapes are composed and combined on the CPU to make a more optimized mesh. But that takes lots of cycles, and, in fact, it’s much easier to just draw all of the prims. Real-time rendering often requires minimizing what the CPU does and pushes everything possible down to the hardware. So that’s what we did. Someday soon, that work can be done on the GPU, and then the equation might change.

He wrote that in 2008. Maybe it's time now. Then again, looking at how "dirty" meshes made by SketchUp (which is completely CSG based) tend to be, I'm not convinced. Besides, there are so many other less processor heavy extensions that could have been added. Short explanation: A prim is made from a two dimensional line (called a "profile") extruded along another two dimensional line (called a "path") and with some modifiers added. The current system only has four profiles, two paths and about 15 modifiers and all the profiles are circles.

 

23 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

System Trees ROCK for filling open areas you haven't developed yet so they don't look weirdly empty.

The main problem with system vegetation is the textures. Look at this for eaxmple:

This is the Kelp 2 texture. The top right corner is the part of the texture that's actually used and it looks like an illustration from a 19th century book or something like that. (The green field to the right is where the barkt exture goes for the plants that has bark and the lower right is a impostor that was never implemented.

Here's what a Linden calls an Oak and everybody else call a Maple:

Obviously there are limtis to what you can do with textures like these. I suppose there weren't many alpha cutout plant pcitures on the market back then so they had to make do with whatever they could scrape together.

 

[FairreLilette]

23 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Well, they're quite happy with Minecraft.

I don't think there is any comparison to Minecraft which looks like a bunch of boxes to what Tinyland could actually be plus with the box shape already available...kids could make those Minecraft things if they wanted too.  I'm not suggesting a duplicate of Minecraft in any way, shape or form though as Dinkies and other tinies since they are so low triangle can use and enjoy lots and lots of mesh items too.   First photo:  Part of the Tinyland that exists now.  It's my Tiny Tea House.  Second Photo:  Minecraft.  There is absolutely no comparison.  To make the clothing and accessories work for each tiny...just resize all the items and include a shape and the kids can wear the whole outfit in a matter of a few seconds by just choosing WEAR as all a creator would have to do is size each object in the outfit (prefit everything) so it fits with the included shape.  However, I'm beginning to believe the poster that said SL will die after the last of the boomer's and the love generation have passed away plus maybe some of the "me generation" will be around but after the "me generation" is gone...then what?   I was just wondering how SL can appeal to the future...because some time's the future comes faster than you think.  I think it can have some appeal in the future but only if it splits - Tinyland with the old program...and a new mesh platform for more sophisticated people.  

Edited May 1, 2020 by FairreLilette

[ChinRey]

37 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

I haven't read all other posts, but as far as I could get reading, none gave the answer

Selene did and I'm seriously impressed. I've already posted the answer in a spoiler so I suppose there's no need to repeat it

 

37 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

I didn't see the correct answer, honest.

I'm not at all sure I would have either if I hadn't made it myself.

 

37 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

To me, the inconsistency is the name queen of spades when the queen holds a pike. 

Don't blame me for that! The picture on the sign was copied directly from a standard 19th Century French pattern playing card. It may be a sceptre rather than a pike but the Queen of Spades represents Pallas Athena. Pallas Athena is a multi-tasking goddess and one of her jobs was as a goddess of warfare so a pike wouldn't be out of place.

Edited May 1, 2020 by ChinRey

[kali Wylder]

17 hours ago, ChinRey said:

No, it isn't. It's your subjective opinion.

The amount of details is only one of many factors that affect the viusal quality. Load time is another one because we have to consider the visual throughout the whole experience, not only after everything has loaded. Frame rate is one because jagged, jerky movements definitely reduce the visual quality. Collapsed LoD models and jellydoll blurs... well, obviously.

Too many details can actually reduce the visual quality and I do actually think that's a common problem with many of those over-elaborate meshes we have in SL today. What we see is not what we see. That is, it's not the signals our eyes receive, it's how our brain inteprets those signals. All good visual art is based on sending the right signals to the brain, not include every little detail because the latter is not possible even with a photo. I won't mention Caravagio here... Woops, I did it again. Anyway, for those interested, the discussions starts at the sixth post on this page: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/392780-mesh-tricks-for-low-li/page/2/. It's from the old forum so the images are missing but you can look them up on Google.

I could give countless examples in SL how the "wrong" visuals give the right effect but since I can't be absultely sure whether the maker did it on purpose or not and I don't want to shame anybody, I'll use one I made myself. This is the sign outside the Queen of Spades pub at Keswick:

There are lots of simplifications here that I'm sure you'll notice if you study the sign (hopefully people won't - this is one scene for the Silent Slasher game and people should keep their mind on the game playing). But it also has one HUGE ... ummm ... inconsistency (not a mistake because I did it on purpose, it really looks better this way). It's glaringly obvious but so far nobody has spotted it unless I've pointed it out to them. Can you?

Edit: I didn't notice until now but there is another thing in that picture (not on the sign) that illustrates even better how more details, no matter how "realistic", can reduce rather than enhance the visual quality. Can you spot that too?

inconsistency spotted, it may or may not be the one you are referring to, but the queen of spades should not have a diamond on her headdress - nope that's not it, it really is a spade but looks like a diamond at this resolution.  So could it be the spade symbol is over-layed on the leaf in her hand. I think the second item is trickier, but the signs in the shop that are seen through the window are fragmented in a way that jard the mind. It's more detail but it doesn't enhance the scene.

[Qie Niangao]

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And while some people seem to cling to the hope that games designed by residents in-world might attract some of these players (arguably, this is what has driven, in some measure, things like pathfinding, experiences, animesh, and now EEP), very few gamers are going to subject themselves to the misery of learning SL's mechanics (including, most spectacularly, the absolutely awful avatar customization system) when they can play something bigger, better designed, more engaging, and better looking out of the box for their PS4.

I think you missed my point. Maybe it's because my "gaming" peaked with typing "advent" on a VT100 and I haven't found a "game" that interested me since -- and yet I've been tremendously influenced by the advance of interactive 3D computer graphics, advances for which gaming sets the standard. I don't know nor care which games promoted which technical advances, but I know I'm super interested when something relevant becomes available in SL. I loved "Materials" and I'm really loving EEP even though I never aspired to play a high end video game.

Point is, tablestakes for SL graphics are always escalating, driven (I understand) by expectations we inherit from gamers. And even though I know revenues in the high end gaming industry are nowhere near those of Hollywood (an oft-cited comparison that doesn't mean what it seems to claim), it's nonetheless a big industry and there are a lot of people who play those games. Whether we call them gamers or not, they also do other things with their lives, and we really don't need to exclude them from Second Life. They won't come here to play a game and it would be really stupid to try to attract them here for that, but that doesn't mean they can't find anything here of interest. But if the graphics look too much like that VT100 screen - or Second Life circa 2006 - they're just not going to stick around and find anything to do here.

36 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

The main problem with system vegetation is the textures.

Perhaps, but the weirdest problem with system vegetation is that all the grasses and groundcovers turn into the same variety when the region restarts. Don't ask me how that's possible.

[Selene Gregoire]

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Exactly. That's why I never listed it for sale.

I suppose you didn't read the spoiler which means you are the first one to notice. Congratulations! 🙂

Didn't need to read a spoiler. It's one of my pet peeves with those particular styles of signs and has been for about 10 years now. Some of the sculpted ones I have are better than some of the mesh ones I've seen. They (sculpted) just suck up too many prims now.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Point is, tablestakes for SL graphics are always escalating, driven (I understand) by expectations we inherit from gamers. And even though I know revenues in the high end gaming industry are nowhere near those of Hollywood (an oft-cited comparison that doesn't mean what it seems to claim), it's nonetheless a big industry and there are a lot of people who play those games. Whether we call them gamers or not, they also do other things with their lives, and we really don't need to exclude them from Second Life. They won't come here to play a game and it would be really stupid to try to attract them here for that, but that doesn't mean they can't find anything here of interest. But if the graphics look too much like that VT100 screen - or Second Life circa 2006 - they're just not going to stick around and find anything to do here.

Well, ok . . . I think you've maybe overstated what I said a bit.

Yeah, I'll certainly concede that improvements to graphics in triple-A games and their ilk have raised expectations generally. Even Angry Birds seems to now use better graphics than it did originally, and in SL the proof that graphics quality does matter can be found in the popularity of those products that look nicest -- are well-detailed and textured (even when, frequently, poorly optimized). I certainly was not suggesting that pre-mesh graphics quality is going to fly around here anymore: it isn't, and not just with gamers.

But I did not suggest that gamers should be "excluded" from consideration. What I was arguing is that their preoccupations should not set the agenda for the future of the platform. I suggested, in fact, that SL was enormously diverse, and that gamers were merely one community among many whose priorities needed to be consulted (along with RPers, shoppers, photographers, music fans, etc., etc.). That's not to suggest that they don't matter: rather, the point is that they are merely one constituency among many. There is of course, as well, as great deal of overlap within categories, so improvements to avatar customization -- the kind of desideratum we associate with those who focus on fashion and their avatar's looks -- are also going to make many gamers happy.

It is a fact, though, that I have never, in 11+ years here, heard someone complain that they weren't getting 60 FPS. Actually, I've never heard anyone complain that they weren't getting 30 FPS: I'd be willing to bet that a sizable majority of people here are entirely happy with something in the 15-20 FPS range. And, while I don't have data for this obviously, I'd lay money that most people in SL don't even bother turning on their ALM or ambient occlusion most of the time.

The performance issues that I hear most complaining about (and I think you'll find this reflected here, in this forum, too) are things like texture loading time, sim crossings, disfunctional group chat, sim avatar limits, and so forth. These tend to be about making what we have now work better, rather than asking for new and better graphics.

So, yeah, I'm sure there'd be enthusiasm for better graphics, a higher FPS, and so on. But these are, I'm almost certain, not the priorities of most people. And, again, an approach to future improvements in the platform that focuses upon the sorts of things that gamers are most likely to care about is going to miss entirely the issues that in fact preoccupy most residents here.

That's not to exclude their concerns: it is to contextualize them within the larger community of users.

[CaerolleClaudel]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is a fact, though, that I have never, in 11+ years here, heard someone complain that they weren't getting 60 FPS.

I get like 120 FPS up on my platform, with nothing to see or do and noone around for thousands of meters. I am fine with a tenth of that somewhere there are people to talk to and good music to listen to.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

12 minutes ago, CaerolleClaudel said:

I get like 120 FPS up on my platform, with nothing to see or do and noone around for thousands of meters. I am fine with a tenth of that somewhere there are people to talk to and good music to listen to.

Yeah, this is it, exactly.

When I'm at a club or somewhere else likely to be laggy, I am, personally, far more annoyed by the lag between my typing, and the appearance of my text in the chat window, than I am by the FPS. And for those of us for whom SL is preeminently a social platform -- and that's a lot of us -- it's actually far more important to be able to communicate easily (including, for instance, not crashing when TPing to someone) than it is to be able to see them in all of their ultra-setting graphic glory.

I think I've mentioned before an occasion a month or so ago when I sent a friend a picture of his house, taken using ultra graphics settings (ALM, AO, and all the goodies), and he was amazed: he literally exclaimed "Wow!" and explained that he'd never seen his house look like that . . . because he doesn't use ALM, AO, etc. And he still doesn't: it's not his priority. I don't think he's singular in that regard.