Should we pay for shapes?

[BeautifulXu]

43 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My sense of @BeautifulXu from her postings on other threads is that she actually doesn't yet really understand how SL works. I think, for instance, that she was posting in the forums before she even realized that the actual core of the platform is a 3D virtual world: she seemed to think we were producing our avatars (and photos of them) here, in the forums. So I'm reasonably confident she doesn't understand the economic model that SL operates under. (I'm also pretty sure there is a language barrier at work here?)

So . . . @BeautifulXu, you need to understand that very nearly all of the content in Second Life -- the bodies and their components, the clothing and hair, the houses and vehicles and other objects -- are not created by Linden Lab, who owns Second Life, but by residents -- ordinary users of the platform, like you and me. They build things either in-world, within the virtual world environment. or in external software for images, mesh, and animations, which they then import into the virtual world (for a reasonably small sum).

The residents (i.e., users like you and me) who create these items then can use them themselves, give them away for free or, very often, sell them to other users. So, for instance, the mesh body that I most often wear was not supplied by Second Life or its owner Linden Lab, but rather created by another resident who is not an employee of Second Life, and who sells it to people like me for Linden dollars. Mostly, the process of creating things doesn't involve "wages" at all, because the creators generally build the things they are selling themselves.

The amount of money something, like clothes, bodies, or houses, costs will depend upon the creator. Many are able or happy to be generous, and give things away for free, or sell them for very small amounts of money; others use Second Life as a way of making real life money for themselves by selling the things they make at whatever price they think will most effectively attract customers.

The prices of things can vary wildly that reason. There are things in Second Life that I think are very much over-priced and too expensive, but I'm also sometimes astonished by the generosity of people who spend hours and hours making stuff that they give away for free, or very cheaply.

I'm sure we can all agree that it would be nice if everything were free or very inexpensive -- but that's just not the way this particular system works. Fortunately, there are enough nice free things in Second Life that it isn't necessary, if you don't wish to, to spend much, or indeed any mo

thank you so much for trying to explain where the money come from and where it goes in SL. after reading your post I do understand much more than I did. there there are several groups involved..some deeply involved, some lightly involved. we don't know what they to or how much they're paid.  if they could earn more else where then go. but that's not the way it should happen. if they are not being paid enough to live then SL should not live well. give everyone their due

[Rudegerus Osterham]

In terms of shape design, it would be nice if the existing slider system was a power user mode, but users could have a simpler system to choose from that would take care of avatar smoothing. Something like maybe the Skyrim-style sliders where users can only adjust about a screen's worth of sliders and deliver a decent shape. Like, height, body type, torso size, etc. But not get  into love handles, knee bow, eyelid folds, etc.

[Beth Macbain]

3 minutes ago, Rudegerus Osterham said:

In terms of shape design, it would be nice if the existing slider system was a power user mode, but users could have a simpler system to choose from that would take care of avatar smoothing. Something like maybe the Skyrim-style sliders where users can only adjust about a screen's worth of sliders and deliver a decent shape. Like, height, body type, torso size, etc. But not get  into love handles, knee bow, eyelid folds, etc.

Why? No one has to use those sliders if they don't want to, and what defines a "power user"? Someone with a premium account? Someone who has been a resident for 2 years? 5 years? 10? To we have to pass a test or complete some quest before we're allowed to have all the sliders? 

SL isn't a game. It isn't Skyrim or whatever. 

[Rudegerus Osterham]

16 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Why? No one has to use those sliders if they don't want to, and what defines a "power user"? Someone with a premium account? Someone who has been a resident for 2 years? 5 years? 10? To we have to pass a test or complete some quest before we're allowed to have all the sliders? 

Sorry, bad wording.

I meant basic and advanced, or "less options" and "more options". If you want to work with all the sliders, choose "advanced/more options."

If you just want to easily build the basis of a shape, choose "basic/we will help you through this."  

Edit: I thought of a better example. My camera has a way to just let it choose what it thinks is the best choice, or I can choose to prioritize shutter, or I can go full manual. I was thinking more along those lines. Complexity for where people want it; ease for where they want it.

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Rudegerus Osterham
Edited in a better wording.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

18 hours ago, BeautifulXu said:

Many people have been hit hard by corona virus and its effects on small businesses and  communities. people are having trouble feeding their families. yet millions are being spent on these games. the people deserve games  and they deserve that the rich and not the poor pay for them.                 

 

then make your own shape.  It is very simple.  You are not entitled to anything.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Tarina Sewell
for kicks and giggles, are you a millenial?

[BeautifulXu]

ha! I cannot make it yet. it's like putting your and on your hip and demanding that the lame run!

at first I could not move my right hand. today I could move it to the music

i'm entitled to a lot... so are you.

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

12 minutes ago, BeautifulXu said:

ha! I cannot make it yet. it's like putting your and on your hip and demanding that the lame run!

at first I could not move my right hand. today I could move it to the music

i'm entitled to a lot... so are you.

I am not entitled to anything I do not work for or pay for.

[Zeta Vandyke]

12 minutes ago, BeautifulXu said:

ha! I cannot make it yet. it's like putting your and on your hip and demanding that the lame run!

at first I could not move my right hand. today I could move it to the music

i'm entitled to a lot... so are you.

You are not entitled to me working for you for free. So when I make a shape that I work on and then want to sell, you are not entitled to get it for free. Just like you are not entitled to go to a store and get their products for free. The fact that you can not make a car, does not mean you can get one for free either.

In SL though, there are many free options. You can make a free account. Can use the free starter shape. Or get a free body and many other free items like hair, cloths and whatever. Because some people like to provide these for free. That's not because you are entitled to them, but because they are so kind to not ask money for their work.

Back on the topic, I had a shape store in the past (before mesh) and I put time and effort in creating them. Also making the advertisements, renting a store. So yeah, I would ask money for them. I considered them to be fairly cheap, but still. Now I still make shapes for friends, and I do them for free. No longer running a store and making cost, and just enjoy making them.

[BeautifulXu]

On 5/1/2020 at 10:56 AM, Zzevir said:

hello 

I saw that you have some problem to make and upload pictures this might help. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

I am not entitled to anything I do not work for or pay for.

if you are offered something free or low cost, you'd take it.

[Extrude Ragu]

You know, reading this thread it never really occurred to me before that there would be people who struggle with making shapes. Maybe I just know what I like too well.

Maybe I should make a library of anime body shapes and see how they sell one day. Could be a nice side hustle

[Mildred Blackwood]

There is a market for everything in Second Life. People are willing to pay for shapes because not everyone is able to easily shape them on their own and get them to look right. So buying shapes is certainly good. Some people choose to use the bought shapes as is and they are happy with that. Other people may prefer the shapes they buy as a nice starting base to build upon and slowly edit and customize more over time.  anything under 600L$ is a good price. I have seen plenty over the years for far more L$ and well i guess if people are willing to pay then more power to them. I know that even making a nice looking shape takes some work. So picking out a skin then shaping it to look nice with the skin, then shaping it for various mesh bodies. It can be a little time consuming. So why not charge for that?

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

16 hours ago, BeautifulXu said:

 

if you are offered something free or low cost, you'd take it.

First, you really do not know me to make that assumption. (and I said that I do not pay for , so...)   and secondly, there is a difference in someone offering a reduced priced item such as a sale and freebies people give to help others.  You are not entitled to anything except what LL provides in Libraries and they really do not even "have" to provide that. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Tarina Sewell

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

9 hours ago, Extrude Ragu said:

You know, reading this thread it never really occurred to me before that there would be people who struggle with making shapes. Maybe I just know what I like too well.

Maybe I should make a library of anime body shapes and see how they sell one day. Could be a nice side hustle

That might be a nice niche market for you. I can not recall seeing many anime shapes. 

[kiramanell]

On 5/4/2020 at 9:17 PM, Beth Macbain said:

The point is that not all of us are the Claude Monet of shape creation, and we shouldn't be made to feel as if we are lacking some sort of fundamental skill because we aren't. 

 

Well said! 👍

Me? I just create shapes the old-fashioned way: I buy them. 😜 And not feeling bad about it. God gave me SL, and a will to go shopping, and the two work well together. Me happy, sellers happy.

Edited May 6, 2020 by kiramanell

[tako Absent]

Yes. Work is work. Periodt

[Lillith Hapmouche]

On 5/4/2020 at 9:17 PM, Beth Macbain said:

The point is that not all of us are the Claude Monet of shape creation

Why, a bit of Pablo Picasso could be fun...

[AyelaNewLife]

On 5/4/2020 at 8:49 PM, Rudegerus Osterham said:

In terms of shape design, it would be nice if the existing slider system was a power user mode, but users could have a simpler system to choose from that would take care of avatar smoothing. Something like maybe the Skyrim-style sliders where users can only adjust about a screen's worth of sliders and deliver a decent shape. Like, height, body type, torso size, etc. But not get  into love handles, knee bow, eyelid folds, etc.

Using Skyrim as an example is actually pretty darn accurate.

The base game's character generation has a set of sliders which manages to be both have a low bar of entry, yet be powerful enough for most player's wishes. For those that want more control, RaceMenu gives a vast range of cosmetic options and sliders and a far more powerful customisation tool than the SL slider set.

And of course, a slider set does not determine your actual look alone. Which body replacer you use has a massive impact on the way your body interprets those sliders, which skin textures you use greatly impacts your appearance, and there's a vast range of hair and cosmetic textures and addons to grant even more flexibility. I'd argue that, as an analogy for the SL avatar creation process, Skyrim is exceptionally faithful.

However, to address your main point: it's incredibly difficult to condense down an existing set of sliders. RaceMenu expands the Skyrim sliders by introducing a whole new range of sliders, which when set to 0 (on a -1 to +1 scale) gives the same output as if the slider doesn't exist. That's entirely possible and practical. But the reverse? Shortening a set of sliders? I'm skeptical that's even technically possible, without some highly strange results.

[Cinos Field]

50 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Using Skyrim as an example is actually pretty darn accurate.

The base game's character generation has a set of sliders which manages to be both have a low bar of entry, yet be powerful enough for most player's wishes. For those that want more control, RaceMenu gives a vast range of cosmetic options and sliders and a far more powerful customisation tool than the SL slider set.

And of course, a slider set does not determine your actual look alone. Which body replacer you use has a massive impact on the way your body interprets those sliders, which skin textures you use greatly impacts your appearance, and there's a vast range of hair and cosmetic textures and addons to grant even more flexibility. I'd argue that, as an analogy for the SL avatar creation process, Skyrim is exceptionally faithful.

However, to address your main point: it's incredibly difficult to condense down an existing set of sliders. RaceMenu expands the Skyrim sliders by introducing a whole new range of sliders, which when set to 0 (on a -1 to +1 scale) gives the same output as if the slider doesn't exist. That's entirely possible and practical. But the reverse? Shortening a set of sliders? I'm skeptical that's even technically possible, without some highly strange results.

I'd imagine "simple mode" would be proportion locked! So for example, your arm length would change automatically based on your overall length, and so on. Perhaps for other things there'd be a few settings ("small nose", "big nose" and so on) that'd then scale based on head size. And some options that are practically never used like the various lopsided eyes would just be locked out entirely.

[Rudegerus Osterham]

1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

I'd imagine "simple mode" would be proportion locked! So for example, your arm length would change automatically based on your overall length, and so on. Perhaps for other things there'd be a few settings ("small nose", "big nose" and so on) that'd then scale based on head size. And some options that are practically never used like the various lopsided eyes would just be locked out entirely.

Yah, I was thinking it would "do the math" for the other sliders in the background.  Height generating arm length, choosing an overall body "style" determines hand, musculature, love handles, etc.

That said, different heads and bodies react to sliders differently (or just don't use them), so it's likely a pipe dream. The advice of starting with your head base shape and modifying the body is a good one.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

You do remember the original Ruth shape?

You really want to let those who came up with the proportion of that shape code an auto-adjuster?

😐

[Rudegerus Osterham]

16 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

You do remember the original Ruth shape?

You really want to let those who came up with the proportion of that shape code an auto-adjuster?

😐

I can't really present an argument against this. 🙂

[Nalates Urriah]

On 5/4/2020 at 12:39 PM, BeautifulXu said:

thank you so much for trying to explain where the money come from and where it goes in SL. after reading your post I do understand much more than I did. there there are several groups involved..some deeply involved, some lightly involved. we don't know what they to or how much they're paid.  if they could earn more else where then go. but that's not the way it should happen. if they are not being paid enough to live then SL should not live well. give everyone their due

Where do you get the idea of how the world and people SHOULD BE?

If you think we should give everyone their due, maybe you would explain what that means and tell us what you do to assure that is happening in your life.

Personally I prefer freedom, leave me alone and let me do what I think works best for me while I let others do the same.

On 5/4/2020 at 3:35 PM, Tarina Sewell said:

then make your own shape.  It is very simple.  You are not entitled to anything.

OMG! Haven't you heard!?! That is so racist. 🙄 A whole generation is entitled. You are their slave, well society in general, and must provide the entitled all they want.

On 5/4/2020 at 6:59 PM, BeautifulXu said:

if you are offered something free or low cost, you'd take it.

That is a reasonable assumption as it is generally human nature. Free ice cream... I'm down with that. But I am not going to try and force someone to give me free ice cream.

So what was your point?

[DeepBlueJoy]

I like making shapes, so I have never and will never pay for one.  I've gotten free shapes in almost every head or body purchase I've ever made... and I never use them. 

That said, I know exactly how much work it takes to create and tweak a shape (and to design a new shape when you get a differently laid out body or head or even when you change your skin).  So, if someone is good at it and you aren't, you should definitely pay them for taking the trouble to do it well.  Too many people in SL walk around with HIDEOUS proportions -- not the deliberate ones, the ones where people don't know they have bad proportions... short necks, tiny heads on huge bodies, and flippers instead of arms...  I just shake my head. 

I've spent time studying anatomy in the various iterations of my life, so I'm very sensitive to what I consider 'human' proportions and in SL, I see a lot of improbable, impossible and downright fugly shapes.

So, should you pay for someone to do well for you what you cannot do for yourself?  Definitely!  Most of us don't make our own clothing, houses, or skins either... but we don't think we shouldn't pay because the magic of creating those things APPEARS sufficiently more complex than just sliders on a shape...

The truth is that creating a good shape is non-trivial. 

I can rebuild a toilet. But mostly, I don't.  I can do a lot of practical stuff other people cannot do... so i do it when it suits me.  Sometimes, it's easier to have someone else do it or they can do it better AND quicker. 

BECAUSE I know just how much my knees will hurt when I'm done crawling around under my sink or behind my toilet, I know it's worth the money to pay.

Good shapes are worth paying for. 

How much you should pay for them?  That depends on your budget and how much effort you want to put into looking for a good shape that suits you.  The best shapes are customized for particular bodies and heads.  This means the maker had to have access to that particular combo.  Someone who is making shapes for a 'living' has to invest in various bodies and skins and heads... so there's a cost involved in doing it well.

• There are generic shapes, but at best, they're just basically proportion templates. You can find these cheap or free on MP.
• There are shapes customized to specific bodies and heads, and those are the ones that will look best if you have that same body/head.
• There are completely custom shapes - created to make a unique look that fits your body AND the look you want. I would not expect this to be cheap.

Every mesh body I own has a customized shape.  Same for every head.  Same for my system body.  (The mesh body I wear most has 3 slightly different shapes for different types of clothing I tend to wear)  This represents a considerable investment of time and the development of skill that started on day one in SL when I decided I wanted to create my own look even if i didn't ever learn how to build, or make clothing or anything else.

Every now and then, I work on someone else's shape for them and invest minutes to hours on it...  and I wonder if I should charge for the work of shape making. For now, i do it just for friends, but it's still real work.

[MelodyClone1]

People actually sell physics, which anyone with half a brain can make in like <60sec. Now that I find funny. Next people should be selling landmarks too.

Shapes? Personally I never buy shapes, but at least they take slightly more effort to make, I guess? What's the point of even playing SL if you can't be bothered to spend some time making your own look? I also find it funny people try to sell shapes without demos. Like yeah sure I'll spend 500L on a shape based on one picture, totally can picture what it'll look like with my skin or if the ad was photoshopped in any way. 🙄

[Cristiano Midnight]

The entire premise of this thread is silly. If you don't think something has value, don't buy it. Others who do find value in something will buy it. To imply that the work of those who create shapes has no value is insulting. Thinking something is priced too high is certainly valid, but if you don't like the price, don't buy it.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Cristiano Midnight