Expressing your opinion on stores

[Odaks]

2 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Trying to argue that this hypothetical top is somehow not designed to fit the body just seems wrong, and disconnected from reality.

Thanks, Ayela - I have to accept fully your point about he practical issues a creator faces when dealing with oddments like the nipples problem you outlined. I admit that I wasn't thinking at all along those sort of lines, despite having several items myself that need the nipples dealing with. I was thinking more on the lines of having to alpha out a substantial portion of body to prevent breaking. Its good that you've raised the creator's problems with these sort of issues though; it is easy not to see things from their perspective.

You must bear in mind that I was clearly responding in regard of @Solar Legion's comments - forgive me if nipples weren't exactly foremost. The mention of the "more realistic shape" prompted me to make comment about pushing the provided shape beyond a reasonable amount, too, but before Solar comes back gunning for me, I was in no way suggesting that was fault in this case. Let's not also forget the effect some AOs and animations have - avatar movements and positions that would defeat even the most skillful creators. Back to my opening sentence, I think - if you expect perfection, you're living in cloud-cuckoo-land!

[AyelaNewLife]

32 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You can't "really" design clothing for the Maitreya Lara "within reason" as it comes with five starter shapes.  So there would need to be five clothings fitted to the five starter shapes for Maitreya.  Not to mention, most people want to make their own kind of shape.

Couldn't designers just zero out the butt and make the breasts smaller because things will go larger from there?  If it's made too big, it cannot go smaller.  Some designers do zero out the butt, they must...because their clothing fits smaller slimmer figures and conforms to my actual buttocks size on the slider.  

Here's a photo of my human avatar trying on what is a fitmesh garmet.  The buttocks is too large even though you can see I have set the buttocks to zero.  Other creators can allow for all kinds of buttocks shapes...why can't others?   If they zero out the buttocks to accommodate for smaller shapes as well as larger, they make more sales.  However, my buttocks is NOT set at zero...I have to zero it out to see how small the garment can go for a slim shape.  And, for this example...it does not go smaller as you can see...so therefore they lose a sale.  What I am saying is other clothing designers can do it properly, why not others.  They'd have more business so it would only be to their benefit.  

This photo is meaningless by itself. How big is the Maitreya ass with your current slider settings, and Butt Size set to 0? Is there a massive air pocket between the edge of your body and the edge of the clothing? If I had to guess, I'd say the clothing is actually adapting to your slider settings perfectly, and your main gripe is with the Maitreya body itself - but that's just a guess, we'd need a side by side photo to know for sure.

I'm also not sure what you mean by creators zeroing out the butt. I'm struggling to see how that relates to a rigged mesh that responds to weight sliders. What do you mean by that?

Edited April 30, 2020 by AyelaNewLife

[Maitimo]

Shape makes some difference as to whether a garment will need alphas or not. I am forever tweaking mine, various bits in and out, and that's often easier for me than messing with the alpha hud. But I usually have to, because my non-existant breast size usually causes the centre of my chest to poke through. I usually find a breast size of between 10 and 15 is the minimum that most  Maitreya rigged mesh clothes will support, but it's still small enough that they don't show.  And my shape is very much "pushed to the limits" -  as well as near-zero breast size, my torso muscle slider is maxed out, bodyfat is somewhere around 40, shoulder width and lovehandles high, saddlebags, hip width and butt size near-zero,. All of this combines to give as much of a masculine shape as Lara is capable of - I'm not aiming for a girl, I'm aiming for a guy that's dressed like a girl. And yet, most Maitreya clothes still fit me with very few issues at all.

It's actually easier with Maitreya clothes on the Lucybody (Atena and Vania are the two I have). These two bodies are just slightly slimmer all round than Lara, so Maitreya clothes are more likely to fit these bodies without needing alphas at all, than they are on the Lara body. Atena also has an option to make the nips go completely flat without alpha (but Vania doesn't).

 

[FairreLilette]

26 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

This photo is meaningless by itself. How big is the Maitreya ass with your current slider settings, and Butt Size set to 0? Is there a massive air pocket between the edge of your body and the edge of the clothing? If I had to guess, I'd say the clothing is actually adapting to your slider settings perfectly, and your main gripe is with the Maitreya body itself - but that's just a guess, we'd need a side by side photo to know for sure.

I'm also not sure what you mean by creators zeroing out the butt. I'm struggling to see how that relates to a rigged mesh that responds to weight sliders. What do you mean by that?

Okay, I'm not sure what you are asking...are you asking for a slim shape what is the buttocks slider I would have if not 0?  Clothing that does fit my slim shape is usually set at around 12 on the buttocks slider, or if it's a little too big for a small shape, I usually have to set my buttocks slider to around 5 and it fits.   My slider for my buttocks is about 12, not 0, but even at 0...it's still too big in the buttocks on the garment I am showing; however, other clothing makers the fit is fine and does not stick out like that.  

What I'm trying to understand, if you could explain, is why do some fitmesh garments work without having to adjust the buttocks, while others don't and while others cannot go smaller?  Some fitmesh garments work fine for shapes with a smaller buttocks...if they didn't, I'd be here on the forum saying no clothes fit my Maitreya body in the buttocks when that is not true.  Many fit slimer Maitreya shapes just fine.  My picture is showing that even if I take the slider down to 0, it will not go smaller.  Therefore, if a garment is made smaller, it should size up okay for the larger sizes.  

Edited April 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Solar Legion]

I already quite covered and explained my meaning so this twisting to fit some of the more recent responses is ... irksome ... at best.

Have a nice day folks, not in the mood to correct such twisting or to restate what has already been clearly written out for you.

[AyelaNewLife]

Just now, FairreLilette said:

Okay, I'm not sure what you are asking...are you asking for a slim shape what is the buttocks slider I would have if not 0?  Clothing that does fit my slim shape is usually set at around 12 on the buttocks slider, or if it's a little too big for a small shape, I usually have to set my buttocks slider to around 5 and it fits.  

What I'm trying to understand, if you could explain, is why do some fitmesh garments work without having to adjust the buttocks, while others don't and while others cannot go smaller?  Some fitmesh garments work fine for shapes with a smaller buttocks...if they didn't, I'd be here on the forum saying no clothes fit my Maitreya body in the buttocks when that is not true.  Many fit slimer Maitreya shapes just fine.  My picture is showing that even if I take the slider down to 0, it will not go smaller.  Therefore, if a garment is made smaller, it should size up okay for the larger sizes.  

I honestly can't tell if there's a communication error here, so apologies if this sounds patronising:

Fitted mesh clothing responds to your shape sliders. As you increase and decrease a slider, both your body and the clothing changes shape. Otherwise identical shapes with the Butt Size slider at 0, 10, 20 etc will all result in different shaped clothing, and a different shaped body underneath. This is true for the skirt you are wearing; the preview clearly shows a much larger butt in the 100 size preview (marked "Big Butt") compared to the 0 size preview ("Flat Butt").

I'm therefore highly confused as to what you mean with statements such as "Clothing that does fit my slim shape is usually set at around 12 on the buttocks slider, or if it's a little too big for a small shape, I usually have to set my buttocks slider to around 5 and it fits." By definition, changing the slider means your body shape has changed.

[FairreLilette]

2 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I honestly can't tell if there's a communication error here, so apologies if this sounds patronising:

Fitted mesh clothing responds to your shape sliders. As you increase and decrease a slider, both your body and the clothing changes shape. Otherwise identical shapes with the Butt Size slider at 0, 10, 20 etc will all result in different shaped clothing, and a different shaped body underneath. This is true for the skirt you are wearing; the preview clearly shows a much larger butt in the 100 size preview (marked "Big Butt") compared to the 0 size preview ("Flat Butt").

I'm therefore highly confused as to what you mean with statements such as "Clothing that does fit my slim shape is usually set at around 12 on the buttocks slider, or if it's a little too big for a small shape, I usually have to set my buttocks slider to around 5 and it fits." By definition, changing the slider means your body shape has changed.

Okay, my shape would have a size 12 on the butt slider if she were in a bikini or maybe 15.  For some clothing if the buttocks is too big I can lower my buttocks to around 5 on the slider and it will fit while others will not.  I was just wondering what the difference was as to how it was made and why some clothing designs can allow for smaller slim shapes while others cannot, and they both seem to be "fitmesh".  

[Cinos Field]

A lot of rigging is just done lazily and won't support some sliders - typically, when it happens, body fat and thickness are the ones that get ignored by creators. Sometimes smaller or bigger butts as well.

[FairreLilette]

31 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

A lot of rigging is just done lazily and won't support some sliders - typically, when it happens, body fat and thickness are the ones that get ignored by creators. Sometimes smaller or bigger butts as well.

It's strange for me because I really like the creator I am showing in the photos in my prior posts in this thread.  Her clothing allows for many "shapes" everywhere except the buttocks and responds well to the sliders in other areas.  I can wear a few of her "hugger" style items with a smaller avatar shape but not all as it doesn't fit in the buttocks while some of hers are made to allow for smaller buttocks.  It's weird and I was just wondering why.  Some other designers I have this problem as well but not all.  She has very nice items as you can see but I had to pass on the skirt as I'd have to do too much adjustment to make it fit a slim shape.  But, again, about half of her items do allow for smaller buttocks.  

But, I'm getting it now...I think some of her designs she later did lower body fat, thickness and butt then to accommodate for smaller slim shapes because as I'm saying, it will size up....so clothing needs to be at it's smaller to start with which would allow for more sales.   

Edited April 30, 2020 by FairreLilette

[AyelaNewLife]

33 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, my shape would have a size 12 on the butt slider if she were in a bikini or maybe 15.  For some clothing if the buttocks is too big I can lower my buttocks to around 5 on the slider and it will fit while others will not.  I was just wondering what the difference was as to how it was made and why some clothing designs can allow for smaller slim shapes while others cannot, and they both seem to be "fitmesh".  

I think I see the problem - eureka moment on my part.

It sounds like the sliders on some clothing is less responsive than your body. You therefore adjust your shape further to compensate for this. 

Some made up numbers to illustrate this: say you have the butt slider on 30. You reduce the slider to 20. On the naked body, this results in a 20% shrink in "real" butt size. But with the clothing, this results in only a 10% decrease in "real" size. You therefore reduce the slider to 10 to compensate. Does that sound about right?

If so, it just boils down to the sensitivity of the rigging. The butt slider is clearly rigged - you can see in your photo that there is a clear difference between 0 and 100 on the butt size slider - but that the 0 and 100 slider settings don't match up with the 0 and 100 slider settings of your naked body. It just means the creator needs to get better at rigging... and as rigging is a tricky skill anyway, it's hard for me personally to be too critical of this.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

I think, and i am sure @Solar Legion will correct me if i am wrong, but mesh clothing should fit the mesh body it was designed for within reason. As in, no outrageously changed sliders. My av is fairly standard in size, i think, 6'6" no crazy muscles, slink male bom body. And yet, i come across slink clothing that has my arms, legs, back sticking out. Its not unreasonable to ask that mesh clothing FIT the av its made for. I shouldn't have to use a workaround. Alpha layers aren't always made properly. Alpha cuts rarely are in the right area. 

Now, that being said, this is my slink av.. 

 

This is the same av wearing a very well known makers Tuxedo fitted for Slink.. 

Do we see the problem? It should fit better than this. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Drake1 Nightfire

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I think, and i am sure @Solar Legion will correct me if i am wrong, but mesh clothing should fit the mesh body it was designed for within reason. As in, no outrageously changed sliders. My av is fairly standard in size, i think, 6'6" no crazy muscles, slink male bom body. And yet, i come across slink clothing that has my arms, legs, back sticking out. Its not unreasonable to ask that mesh clothing FIT the av its made for. I shouldn't have to use a workaround. Alpha layers aren't always made properly. Alpha cuts rarely are in the right area. 

Now, that being said, this is my slink av.. 

 

This is the same av wearing a very well known makers Tuxedo fitted for Slink.. 

Do we see the problem? It should fit better than this. 

/me tries to resist . . . trying . . . trying . . .

Damn it!

 

YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TRY A DEMO BEFORE BUYING!

 

 

(Also, it not only doesn't fit properly, but seems to have done some serious damage to your avi in the manbits area. I'd consider suing.)

[LittleMe Jewell]

Getting a garment that is supposed to be made for Maitreya and having to alpha 1/2-2/3 of the body is frustrating at best.  Yes, a demo would keep me from buying it, but I have gotten group/hunt gifts that are like that also and been ticked that I had to either tolerate the almost total alpha or pitch the item entirely.  Both options piss me off.

Even more annoying, and definitely a good way to get on my "Never, ever buy" list is to create a garment that is not fitted evenly.  I have actually tried on garments, from multiple creators, where the bust of the top/dress does not fit evenly -- as in this picture below.  Just how the hell does that even happen?  My boobs are most definitely not different sizes.

(had to fix the picture - remembered that the nipple was showing on one side due to the bad fitting and nipples are a forum no-no)

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell

[Drake1 Nightfire]

52 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

/me tries to resist . . . trying . . . trying . . .

Damn it!

 

YOU SHOULD ALWAYS TRY A DEMO BEFORE BUYING!

 

 

(Also, it not only doesn't fit properly, but seems to have done some serious damage to your avi in the manbits area. I'd consider suing.)

When it was released it didnt have a demo.. Seeing as this store has never had issues before, i figured it would be ok.. 

 

That censor box just appeared when i opened the snapshot box.. No idea where it came from.. Its gone now.

[Solar Legion]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

I think, and i am sure @Solar Legion will correct me if i am wrong, but mesh clothing should fit the mesh body it was designed for within reason. As in, no outrageously changed sliders. My av is fairly standard in size, i think, 6'6" no crazy muscles, slink male bom body. And yet, i come across slink clothing that has my arms, legs, back sticking out. Its not unreasonable to ask that mesh clothing FIT the av its made for. I shouldn't have to use a workaround. Alpha layers aren't always made properly. Alpha cuts rarely are in the right area. 

Now, that being said, this is my slink av.. 

 

This is the same av wearing a very well known makers Tuxedo fitted for Slink.. 

Do we see the problem? It should fit better than this. 

Unless that was being marketed as Fitted Mesh (Rigged Mesh behaves a little differently/does not properly 'flex' under motion) then what you are seeing is likely a result of an article of clothing that was built around a very specific Shape and/or was not built to fit over the body in the areas that are poking through.

If it is being marketed as "Fitted Mesh" and marketed as fitting that specific Body and assuming the shape you are using is either the stock one that comes with the Body or not all that different to it ... Then someone lied or was too lazy to make sure that it actually fits over the Body.

Just looking at it, the intention was to have a rather tight/snug fit. Unfortunately because of how it appears to have been made .... Well, I'd question why they define tight/snug as replacing the skin.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

3 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Unless that was being marketed as Fitted Mesh (Rigged Mesh behaves a little differently/does not properly 'flex' under motion) then what you are seeing is likely a result of an article of clothing that was built around a very specific Shape and/or was not built to fit over the body in the areas that are poking through.

If it is being marketed as "Fitted Mesh" and marketed as fitting that specific Body and assuming the shape you are using is either the stock one that comes with the Body or not all that different to it ... Then someone lied or was too lazy to make sure that it actually fits over the Body.

Just looking at it, the intention was to have a rather tight/snug fit. Unfortunately because of how it appears to have been made .... Well, I'd question why they define tight/snug as replacing the skin.

Yes, fitted mesh for the Slink body, among others. My shape is very close to the stock one. Rigged or Fitted it should still cover the body when i am standing perfectly still.. That was a static pose. I am very disappointed with this. Even the stock shape pokes out badly. 

[missyrideout]

11 hours ago, AyelaNewLife said:

It just means the creator needs to get better at rigging... and as rigging is a tricky skill anyway, it's hard for me personally to be too critical of this.

It’s not even necessarily a matter of better. It’s (I thought) common knowledge that different creators have different butt profiles. One major creator famously debuted a “new” butt for her clothes a couple(?) years ago and phased out the longer, less bubbly posterior. I stopped buying her pants at the time because the booty had too much pop fir my taste. I liked the longer “mom jeans” style.  Another massivelypopular creator includes two “styles” of butt in her products.. Same body, different butt. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by missyrideout

[AyelaNewLife]

3 hours ago, missyrideout said:

It’s not even necessarily a matter of better. It’s (I thought) common knowledge that different creators have different butt profiles. One major creator famously debuted a “new” butt for her clothes a couple(?) years ago and phased out the longer, less bubbly posterior. I stopped buying her pants at the time because the booty had too much pop fir my taste. I liked the longer “mom jeans” style.  Another massivelypopular creator includes two “styles” of butt in her products.. Same body, different butt. 

I don't recognise the first example; but with the second, both butt shapes are fully responsible to the sliders and fit the profile of the behinds at both ends of the size spectrum quite faithfully. The primary difference is, uh, in how faithfully the clothing follows the 'valleys' of said curves. The choice comes down to how much detail you want on show, really.