Expressing your opinion on stores

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:56 AM, AndehMoltoer said:

Hello! 

I've been playing Second Life for almost 10 years and I've had my fair share of bad experiences with stores, even popular ones. I was wondering if it is against the ToS to make a pick about my bad experiences with them or make a public post on a blog? Something like: "In my opinion you should stay away from store X because of Y reason."

Thank you! 

You cant even give a bad review on MP because the seller complains that you are disgruntled and has it removed, or just takes down the listing and makes a new one.....

[FairreLilette]

8 hours ago, kiramanell said:

it provides a reasonably fair overview of how the merchant's products are rated overall (like if you see many 2-star ratings, you know well enough to stay away).

To turn things around, with new SL technologies though for things like a club, the most 5 stars reviews can be "old" items and not up to date with what is better.  Reading the stars is not a full proof way to avoid "junk"....especially when it comes to new technology.  Also, with certain club gadgets, if you choose the BEST SELLERS, these are items from eons and ages ago and there is often times better more current items to buy.  It's a tricky situation to find the best and what you really want from SL.  I found this out when I was buying things for my club.  As far as most of SL, it has demos.  Maybe just more demos is needed.  

The other problem is when people pass away in real life.  If they don't have a will, I believe their store just keeps running.  This maybe needs a better method - but how?  You have to get a will to have your SL store close I believe.   

Edited April 25, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Cindy Evanier]

3 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

This maybe needs a better method - but how?  You have to get a will to have your SL store close I believe.   

Not necessarily.  You make a trusted person your store manager.  I just closed Ki's store down when he died.

[kiramanell]

6 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

To turn things around, with new SL technologies though for things like a club, the most 5 stars reviews can be "old" items and not up to date with what is better.  Reading the stars is not a full proof way to avoid "junk"....especially when it comes to new technology.  Also, with certain club gadgets, if you choose the BEST SELLERS, these are items from eons and ages ago and there is often times better more current items to buy.  It's a tricky situation to find the best and what you really want from SL.  I found this out when I was buying things for my club.  As far as most of SL, it has demos.  Maybe just more demos is needed.  

The other problem is when people pass away in real life.  If they don't have a will, I believe there store just keeps running.  This maybe needs a better method - but how?  You have to get a will to have your SL store close I believe.   

 

Old stuff can be weeded out fairly easily, including terms like 'mesh' in your search; or simply by looking at LI.

When ppl pass away in RL (a bit mordid, but probably all too pertinent today), I reckon their payments to LL will simply run out, upon which the latter will close/lock their account anyway.

[Fauve Aeon]

On 4/24/2020 at 7:56 AM, AndehMoltoer said:

Hello! 

I've been playing Second Life for almost 10 years and I've had my fair share of bad experiences with stores, even popular ones. I was wondering if it is against the ToS to make a pick about my bad experiences with them or make a public post on a blog? Something like: "In my opinion you should stay away from store X because of Y reason."

Thank you! 

If you want to know something about the TOS and rules, ask a Linden employee. If you want to know what other residents think about it, I think it’s petty and unimaginative to rag on someone else’s store in a pick. It would make me avoid you, not them. This topic could have gone under pet peeves as ‘bad customer service’ if you’ve had an issue with a store. It did not need a whole thread,again, IMO. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Fauve Aeon
Added nonsense.

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Cindy Evanier said:

Not necessarily.  You make a trusted person your store manager.  I just closed Ki's store down when he died.

Well, that's forcing people to be more corporate rather than an individual.  I don't want anyone else to manager my store...there is no need except if I pass away....I gather I'd have to put it in a will.  The people on Ebay are mostly individuals, not corporations.  If they pass away, there just aren't any new listings but their store could still be there.  It's part of the internet life...there is no getting away from it.  The internet is not like going to a store building where you actually buy the item right then and there.

 

1 hour ago, kiramanell said:

When ppl pass away in RL (a bit mordid, but probably all too pertinent today), I reckon their payments to LL will simply run out, upon which the latter will close/lock their account anyway.

You don't need to make payments to have a SL store.  But, also, I read in a thread and it was with a Linden answering some questions about Marketplace, that the store will only close *if* after two years there is no activity for the store.   This question of "old" items came up because a poster wanted to be able to overlook old items, and yes, there are ways around it...it's all work and search adjustments and reading.   But, I cannot say in this thread about Marketplace with a Linden answering some questions, that the above was 100% from a Linden and not a poster in the thread.  If anyone wanted to know for sure, a Linden would need to be contacted regarding whether the Linden's close a store after two years *if* there is no activity for the store.    This is how I heard it though.  It was a thread with a Linden answering questions.  

But, I'm wondering if the OP's problem was that she got no reply after buying an item.  The most likely reason might be, the person passed away perhaps?   And, I am wondering this because there are lots of demos for just about everything...so I'm thinking it might be something like the person perhaps passed away and she had no customer support.    

See Ebay and Second Life Marketplace are just platforms to sell your items.  The rest is up to individual sellers on these platforms, not the platform owners.  

Looking for currently dated feedback and reviews can help to see recent activity but with the internet nothing is fool proof.  You can also query the seller on any internet platform prior to buying also.

Perhaps adding an inbox right on SL Marketplace could be helpful so queries could be made and then when the seller logs in, they just answer their questions they have in their inbox right here on the MP page.  IM's get capped inworld and some people don't even know how to send a notecard.   Ebay has this, it's own inbox to receive questions and message back and forth.  Many people on Ebay do message the person prior to purchasing as many people have questions.  I'd had customers who were regular buyers because they got to know me.  And, that is what inworld groups can provide (a chance to talk to the group or seller about items prior to purchase) but that is more for the corporate sellers in SL rather than us little people, plus you can only have so many groups.  But, you can still message the group prior to buying by joining the group and then leaving the group after your purchase - I have done that occasionally.   

But, I also wanted to state that adding an inbox here on MP for sellers and customers to correspond could be expensive.  Ebay sells hundreds of dollar items.  Ebay can afford it.  I don't know if SL Marketplace could afford to add an inbox on it's MP page or not.  I'm guessing it's not an inexpensive thing.  

Edited April 25, 2020 by FairreLilette

[AndehMoltoer]

4 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

You cant even give a bad review on MP because the seller complains that you are disgruntled and has it removed, or just takes down the listing and makes a new one.....

That's what has brought me to make this post. I gave a bad review at a certain store because the object didn't fit a mesh body, even if they mentioned that it does. The next day I got IM'd by 3 of the owner minions, harassing me to take the review off. I did, didn't want to get involved into that kind of fight.

[FairreLilette]

29 minutes ago, AndehMoltoer said:

That's what has brought me to make this post. I gave a bad review at a certain store because the object didn't fit a mesh body, even if they mentioned that it does. The next day I got IM'd by 3 of the owner minions, harassing me to take the review off. I did, didn't want to get involved into that kind of fight.

That's terrible.  There are some older items that were mesh but were for the Classic Body when mesh first came out and then these items were sort of converted to fit the mesh bodies.  

So, imo, you need to try a demo every time and to even take your hair off to make sure it is fitting around the shoulders.  A good way to tell this was mesh for a Classic body converted into a mesh for a mesh body is if it fits terrible around the shoulders.  Like, for instance, spaghetti straps sit above the shoulders.   

I think it's best in that situation to ask to speak to the owner/creator and see if she can exchange something for you.  I bought two items for my first mesh avatar and IM'd the creator that the fit was terrible in the shoulders.  She sent her assistant with me to the store and let me pick out whatever I wanted for an exchange.  She was very giving.  I'd assume that a lot of women wouldn't care as the hair covers it mostly but I also like to wear my hair up too and just thought the fit wasn't right.  It's better to make a compromise with the owner/creator.

Some will say NO REFUNDS if we offered a demo.  But, if you are wearing long hair, you could miss the shoulder thing, for example.

Also, if there are no demos on MP...try looking inworld...there are probably demos inworld.    

But, can you explain how it didn't fit for you?  

But, I also think...it's better to try to make a fair trade with the owner/creator and go that route first rather than review.  You'd be surprised at how you may like other items they may exchange for you at no additional charge.  

However, the way you were treated was wrong.  

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by FairreLilette

[KimRaw]

On 4/25/2020 at 2:59 AM, Tolya Ugajin said:

I do it all the time.  Have one in there right now.  If people cannot handle a bit of negative publicity, perhaps they should ensure good experiences for their customers.

After all, what's the worst that can happen?  Someone reports it, the Lindens actually decide to get involved in what is essentially an interpersonal dispute (which they strenuously claim they will not do) and tell you to remove the pick?  BHD.

Just because someone can silence you doesn't mean you shouldn't speak.

Just because someone can silence you doesn't mean you shouldn't speak

AMEN

If fact that is when you ought to speak up the most. Raise the dead from their graves.

Edited April 26, 2020 by KimRaw

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Let us know if you start a blog and post a link to it here.. 

[AdminGirl]

20 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, that's forcing people to be more corporate rather than an individual.  I don't want anyone else to manager my store...there is no need except if I pass away....I gather I'd have to put it in a will.  The people on Ebay are mostly individuals, not corporations.  If they pass away, there just aren't any new listings but their store could still be there.  It's part of the internet life...there is no getting away from it.  The internet is not like going to a store building where you actually buy the item right then and there.

 

You don't need to make payments to have a SL store.  But, also, I read in a thread and it was with a Linden answering some questions about Marketplace, that the store will only close *if* after two years there is no activity for the store.   This question of "old" items came up because a poster wanted to be able to overlook old items, and yes, there are ways around it...it's all work and search adjustments and reading.   But, I cannot say in this thread about Marketplace with a Linden answering some questions, that the above was 100% from a Linden and not a poster in the thread.  If anyone wanted to know for sure, a Linden would need to be contacted regarding whether the Linden's close a store after two years *if* there is no activity for the store.    This is how I heard it though.  It was a thread with a Linden answering questions.  

But, I'm wondering if the OP's problem was that she got no reply after buying an item.  The most likely reason might be, the person passed away perhaps?   And, I am wondering this because there are lots of demos for just about everything...so I'm thinking it might be something like the person perhaps passed away and she had no customer support.    

See Ebay and Second Life Marketplace are just platforms to sell your items.  The rest is up to individual sellers on these platforms, not the platform owners.  

Looking for currently dated feedback and reviews can help to see recent activity but with the internet nothing is fool proof.  You can also query the seller on any internet platform prior to buying also.

Perhaps adding an inbox right on SL Marketplace could be helpful so queries could be made and then when the seller logs in, they just answer their questions they have in their inbox right here on the MP page.  IM's get capped inworld and some people don't even know how to send a notecard.   Ebay has this, it's own inbox to receive questions and message back and forth.  Many people on Ebay do message the person prior to purchasing as many people have questions.  I'd had customers who were regular buyers because they got to know me.  And, that is what inworld groups can provide (a chance to talk to the group or seller about items prior to purchase) but that is more for the corporate sellers in SL rather than us little people, plus you can only have so many groups.  But, you can still message the group prior to buying by joining the group and then leaving the group after your purchase - I have done that occasionally.   

But, I also wanted to state that adding an inbox here on MP for sellers and customers to correspond could be expensive.  Ebay sells hundreds of dollar items.  Ebay can afford it.  I don't know if SL Marketplace could afford to add an inbox on it's MP page or not.  I'm guessing it's not an inexpensive thing.  

An mp inbox would be a great way around capped IMs. Plus some people may not go inworld often to read notecards, etc. It'd just be so much easier.

[Cinos Field]

Being honest will not make you any friends when it comes to creators. SL reviews are generally in the range of "great" to "amazing" to the point that reading them on the marketplace is usually pointless. And you will be targeted if you go against the grain, even on a personal blog.

The question, more than ToS, is if you can handle that inevitable conflict with both creators and fans, to shrug it off and not let it get to you?

 

[Coffee Pancake]

On 4/25/2020 at 1:44 PM, FairreLilette said:

Yes, in theory, the Ebay system would be better as it gives the seller a seller rating. 

eBay seller rating are seriously broken.

Sellers will do almost anything to keep a 5 star glowing rating, it's not uncommon for buyers to leave poor or negative feedback as way to get the seller to refund them a percentage or just to get the item for free. Factor in paypal backing the buyers 90% of the time, selling on eBay ends up being a rather fraught experience

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, CoffeeDujour said:

eBay seller rating are seriously broken.

Sellers will do almost anything to keep a 5 star glowing rating, it's not uncommon for buyers to leave poor or negative feedback as way to get the seller to refund them a percentage or just to get the item for free. Factor in paypal backing the buyers 90% of the time, selling on eBay ends up being a rather fraught experience

To me, that's a unique user experience.  I never encountered a single dispute in over 20 years with Ebay and have a 100% rating.  I never did anything extra for anyone other than leave them feedback in return.  And, I never encountered Paypal backing buyers but there is a buyer protection program of some kind.  Is that what you mean?  However, I don't even know what the buyer protection program is.  I have not sold on Ebay for the past 4 years but I still purchase from Ebay every month.  

For clothing and my silver jewelry "habit", I pretty much dealt with the same dealers for years though.  I got to know them, they got to know me.  

Ebay/Second Life = unique user experience.  

Edited April 27, 2020 by FairreLilette

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:39 PM, AndehMoltoer said:

I gave a bad review at a certain store because the object didn't fit a mesh body, even if they mentioned that it does.

I am not saying that this was the case in your experience, but I learned the hard way that something mentioning a body is not the same as actually being rigged for that body.  There are some clothing creators out there that do not have the Maitreya Dev kit, but will attempt to create a version of their item that works for Maitreya bodies.  The ad typically says something along the lines of "compatible with Maitreya", but does not actually show the official Maitreya symbol on it.  In those cases, I would not be able to write a review stating that it does not work for Maitreya.

[Blaise Glendevon]

On 4/24/2020 at 7:56 AM, AndehMoltoer said:

Hello! 

I've been playing Second Life for almost 10 years and I've had my fair share of bad experiences with stores, even popular ones. I was wondering if it is against the ToS to make a pick about my bad experiences with them or make a public post on a blog? Something like: "In my opinion you should stay away from store X because of Y reason."

Thank you! 

Fishing for attention? You should make a Youtube. That'll get you noticed.

[Solar Legion]

On 4/25/2020 at 6:39 PM, AndehMoltoer said:

That's what has brought me to make this post. I gave a bad review at a certain store because the object didn't fit a mesh body, even if they mentioned that it does. The next day I got IM'd by 3 of the owner minions, harassing me to take the review off. I did, didn't want to get involved into that kind of fight.

1. Block/Mute anyone harassing you over a review (if it is not the Creator/Owner)
   1. If it is the Creator/Owner harassing you and you can demonstrate the issue, ignore any harassment - they can either ask to see the item/issue directly (to try and fix it, if possible) or sod off (they're not owed a glowing review/rating)
2. "Fitting" a Mesh Body is ... subjective I have noticed - it can mean it fits like a glove or it can mean that you may need to alpha out bits of your body (that later bit really ought to be treated as false advertising though)

Anything else i could say has already been covered.

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:50 PM, kiramanell said:

 

That argument works remarkably both ways: just because you can say something nasty, and calculated that you will likely get away with it, doesn't mean you should.  

If we limit what we say to nice things, then nobody learns about bad things until it's too late for them.  It seems irresponsible to allow others to live in ignorance and as a result doom them to repeat your own bad experiences.

[FairreLilette]

20 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

"Fitting" a Mesh Body is ... subjective I have noticed - it can mean it fits like a glove or it can mean that you may need to alpha out bits of your body (that later bit really ought to be treated as false advertising though)

I think there were various stages to making the mesh clothing for bodies.  When I first had a mesh body about two years ago there were a lot of clothing where you had to alpha out the bits *but then* the next stage that came along was something called "auto hide".  Auto hide is where the clothing automatically hides the parts that need to be alpha-ed out.  Some of the clothing pre-auto hide one should usually be able to tell that with a demo though.  So, I don't think it's really false advertising just not updated to say "this is not auto hide"....but these clothes were already made and that creator may not even work in auto hide so do they need to state not auto hide in their description, probably not.  In short, not all mesh clothing for mesh bodies is auto hide, and it is a little confusing because there is no one standard way to make clothing.  

Edited April 28, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Solar Legion]

36 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think there were various stages to making the mesh clothing for bodies.  When I first had a mesh body about two years ago there were a lot of clothing where you had to alpha out the bits *but then* the next stage that came along was something called "auto hide".  Auto hide is where the clothing automatically hides the parts that need to be alpha-ed out.  Some of the clothing pre-auto hide one should usually be able to tell that with a demo though.  So, I don't think it's really false advertising just not updated to say "this is not auto hide"....but these clothes were already made and that creator may not even work in auto hide so do they need to state not auto hide in their description, probably not.  In short, not all mesh clothing for mesh bodies is auto hide, and it is a little confusing because there is no one standard way to make clothing.  

Auto-hide is a work around, not a "stage" for properly fitting mesh clothing to a mesh body.

It either fits (meaning you do not need to alpha out bits of your body) or it does not.

Now if you'd been talking about the difference between Fitted, Rigged and Unrigged mesh clothing (and by some extension, Animesh body parts) then ...

ETA: To be a bit clearer, a piece of clothing that requires you to alpha out (or that uses auto-hide scripts to do so) a segment where properly fitting it to the body during the creation and upload process would become tedious could be considered to be made with a particular body in mind/made 'for' that particular body - provided the creator isn't making their clothing exclusively for a singular body or trying to make something truly complex. Oh yes, I am well aware that not all clothing/attachment makers for the varied mesh bodies have access to dev kits and such and thus must guess ... They get some slack cut.

I'm (admittedly) splitting hairs and refusing to play fast and loose with term meanings. Now you at least know what I mean - I hope.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Solar Legion

[FairreLilette]

30 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

it either fits (meaning you do not need to alpha out bits of your body) or it does not.

Yes, but the demo will show you that, whether you need to alpha out bits or not.

Plus, I've seen many creator's write - "you may need to alpha out bits for a better fit to your body" in the Details section.  

Some items where you alpha out bits fit fine to me.  

What else would the Maitreya hud where you can alpha out bits be for if the original mesh clothing for mesh bodies *were* all auto hide?   Auto hide came later as far as I can see.

But, I'm gathering by "fit" you mean auto hide.  I never knew that.  I never read fit means auto hide.  

Edited April 28, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Solar Legion]

Just now, FairreLilette said:

Yes, but the demo will show you that, whether you need to alpha out bits or not.

Plus, I've seen in many creator's write - "you may need to alpha out bits for a better fit to your body" in the Details section.  

Some items where you alpha out bits fit fine to me.  

What else would the Maitreya hud where you can alpha out bits be for if the original mesh clothing for mesh bodies *were* all auto hide?   Auto hide came later as far as I can see.

When Auto-hide was implemented is wholly irrelevant - it is a work around for automatically hiding parts of your body where the clothing item in question does not properly fit.

I rather clearly laid out my meaning (among other things) in the post you've only pulled a single line from to respond to - a response that is covered in the post you'd pulled that single line out of.

A creator telling you that you may need to alpha out bits of your body "for a better fit" is flat out telling you that - for one reason or another - they did not fully fit the item in question to the body they are selling it for. This is not real life - you do not need to roll up a sleeve/leg or make physical alterations to properly fit an article of clothing to you: The creator either has the proper tools to make a proper fit to a particular body (along with the time/patience to do so) or they do not. See my prior post for exceptions to this.

As an example of clothing designed to fit a body: Underground and Justice - at the very least for the anthropomorphic bodies they sell clothing for.

[LittleMe Jewell]

9 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

A creator telling you that you may need to alpha out bits of your body "for a better fit" is flat out telling you that - for one reason or another - they did not fully fit the item in question to the body they are selling it for.

The one exception to this that I have encountered - wearing a tight hour-glass shaped dress. In RL, one would often use a corset cinched tight before putting on said dress - and the dress would often not fit without the corset.  We don't have that option in SL, so needing to alpha the midsection of the torso would seem acceptable for that.

Otherwise, yes, I consider it a 'creating and/or rigging fail' if I have to alpha out anything.

[FairreLilette]

22 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

A creator telling you that you may need to alpha out bits of your body "for a better fit" is flat out telling you that - for one reason or another - they did not fully fit the item in question to the body they are selling it for. 

Well, I don't see it that way because the Maitreya body comes with a HUD to alpha out bits.  

 

22 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

The creator either has the proper tools to make a proper fit to a particular body (along with the time/patience to do so) or they do not. 

I did not know this.  You are expecting people to know what a dev kit is as you explained in your post above.  I don't know anything about dev kits period except there is one for my Dinkie I can get and that is all I know - I've looked at it but have no idea how to use this dev kit...not yet anyhow.  If you look at the fact that the Maitreya body comes with a HUD to alpha out bits, you can assume most people who don't make clothes in SL thought there is an either/or because they don't make clothing in SL nor have they ever worked with a dev kit just because they are on SL.  

Plus, just because it's "fit" (in your word) or auto hide doesn't even mean it fits...the booty or boobs can be built in and I don't like that.  I want to size my own booty yet it's considered "fit"?...no it isn't fit, it has a booty size built in.   Even if I take the buttocks to zero...the booty is still sticking way out and looks ridiculous.  Am I supposed to write a review that the booty sticks way out even at zero buttocks?  People can try the demo to figure that out.      

Edited April 28, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Solar Legion]

2 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

The one exception to this that I have encountered - wearing a tight hour-glass shaped dress. In RL, one would often use a corset cinched tight before putting on said dress - and the dress would often not fit without the corset.  We don't have that option in SL, so needing to alpha the midsection of the torso would seem acceptable for that.

Otherwise, yes, I consider it a 'creating and/or rigging fail' if I have to alpha out anything.

Yes, another exception to the rule and one that is unavoidable: Specialty clothing. I'd rather forgotten that one.