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Is this the end of V1 ?

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"v2 will not be replacing v1" ... really ?

Anyhow, it would have been nice to have been fore-warned about the problems that have been accumulating for the last couple of weeks, culminating today with the impossibility to even stay in sl for 5 mins without getting screen freeze and then logged out. 

I have spent the most of today trying to get to the bottm of what i at first believed was a computer related or provider problem only to find out that most, and maybe all of my friends using v1 are experiencing more or less the same issues.

Yes it would have been nice to have had some kind of warning that this would be happening but then after all, we are only paying customers ......

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:: points :: shotguns are here, fallout shelter is over there....

 

Since you have provided no details, there is no way to help you, except to hope that venting has made you feel better.

 

in the meantime I suppose you should be made aware that todays server rollout was halted and rolled back for undisclosed reasons...

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It will be nice when LL finally decides to grow some cojones and block V1 viewers entirely then we can start getting all the nice things like mesh on the main grid. Having said that, I am using Phoenix at the moment and I am not experiencing any problems whatsoever.

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Exactly Darren. We all know the history of windows try to stay compatible to MS-DOS ...

It is time to move forward and cut off old ropes. Not that i am a big fan of mesh but it´s the future.

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what exactly makes you think that v1 is preventing mesh from being complete? because it doesn't display right? (looks a lot like vertex vomit or hacked up sculpts from what I'm told). neither does avatar physics, or shared media, or a dozen other well known incompatibilities, missing options and the like.

please tell me so I can see the sources they are citing or publicly laugh in their face at great length.

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V1 is keeping mesh from coming to main grid because unless the majority of residents adopts a V2 viewer that can display mesh properly, then there is no reason and no incentive for content creators from adopting mesh and produce all the wonderful things they will be able to produce.

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Hi, I will guess that you are experiencing crashes from malicious Ogg Vorbis sound clips, Any SL viewer built more than a week or two ago will be vulnerable to these. There are some third party viewers still based on1.23, or Snowglobe, and some of those are getting patches.

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Bull.

Mesh hasn't been rolled out because of technical issues. LL is still working on it and the simple fact is it's just not ready yet. They still haven't worked out many fundamental issues with mesh (like streaming cost) and that has nothing to do with 1.23.

All the other crap that the Lab has rolled out half-baked just to make a deadline (um, like Viewer 2 in it's first iteration) and you really think they're holding back mesh because of Viewer 1.23? Hahahaha. Wow, can I have some of what you're smoking?

 

:matte-motes-big-grin-squint:

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Like I said. Unless the majority of residents adopt a V2 viewer capable of displaying mesh then there will not be an incentive for content creators to adopt mesh at all. I will not repeat this again. The bottom line is V1 is the past and there is no reason why LL should continue to accommodate those unwilling to move forward.

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Cna you imagine the upset of people buying things on marketplace.secondlife.com and getting a pile of traingles? Of course, if SL detects objects type in the magic box then no big deal....but do you really think they will do that or change LSL to make it able to seek through all prims and find out if there is any mesh items in there?

But, you are right...99.9% percent of SL will be still usable and viewable and we see blobs sometimes anway because of stubborn sculpties that stop loading now and then throughout the server upgrades we have endured.

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Mesh is in the latest Snowstorm build. I thought from the merge JIRA that it would only be a partial merge, but it is all there. on Agni it only runs a lot faster than older viewers, but on Aditi it is able to display mesh objects and it has model upload enabled on the mesh regions there.

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The newest Phoenix Viewer includes fixes for that sound clip crasher & one other critical issue, as well avatar physics. This allows folks to watch bouncing boobies on Viewer 2 users or make their own.

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"...The bottom line is V1 is the past and there is no reason why LL should continue to accommodate those unwilling to move forward."

Yes there is actually. The bottom line is called money.  If enough current users can't afford to get a new computer that can handle Viewer 2, then those people will disappear as potential paying customers for Linden Labs. It's that simple. People will generally use the best equiptment they can afford, but many users can't afford nice new computers that will handle Viewer 2.  Many (about half of the users) also prefer TPVs based on Viewer 1, and it doesn't make sense for LL to just thumb their noses at that many users.

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Darren Scorpio wrote:

V1 is keeping mesh from coming to main grid because unless the majority of residents adopts a V2 viewer that can display mesh properly, then there is no reason and no incentive for content creators from adopting mesh and produce all the wonderful things they will be able to produce.

 

Linden Lab want us to use v1 viewers. There is no other explanation for their refusal to give their customers the kind of interface that we have been asking for ever since v2 was released. By including the v1 interface as an option, they could have their cake (which is a new, cumbersome and builder-unfriendly interface for the facebook generation) and eat it too. But apparently, they don't want us to switch to v2. /me shrugs.

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You'd be surprised how few of the more talented content creators are jumping around in delight at the heady prospect of using mesh. 90% of building is about textures, and not the actual structure itself

The percentage of good design will not augment with the arrival of mesh but the quantity of grotesque eye-sores probably will.

What the trash builders could'nt achieve with regular prims and/or sculpts they certainly won't be able to with this either.

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Well in fact no cerise, i'm freezing with V1 almost as soon as i log in and open any kind of window. Rainbow Viewer is slightly better but i still freeze after a while and get logged out. Rainbow in Inworldz works fine though, so it's def an sl issue.

Well.... just have to wait and see if things get back to normal

Thanks for your helpfull comments :)

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I have been in LL 1.23.5 today with audio disabled to check backward compatibility on some content, have been taking it to popular sims to load test, and have not been experiencing crashes,

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I don't know many content creators at all who aren't happy about mesh coming. These content creators sure aren't bad content creators either, they're the best I know of, and can make whole items in a single prim in terms of optimization and efficiency. As for textures, their textures are also some of the finest I've seen and using a single hand-made 128x128 texture and some brilliant modeling work they can make the texture look better than a 1024x1024. 

As for texturing being 90% of the building, I also disagree with that. Texturing is a large part, but not nearly 90%, its more like 50 or 60%. 

Now if you can find an artist who can make a model like this in only a few sculpties and isn't excited about mesh, then I'd gladly entertain the argument a bit more.

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glad that's cleared up, now on to the pointing and laughing.....

...because that's an positively absurd statement that has absolutely nothing to do with mesh deployment. LL develoment has always worked on the "build it and they will come" model, and never on the "wait for everyone to show up before we show it off" model.... ocassionally there is a "we have to make this because users were threatening use with pitch forks and torchs" item, but that's pretty rare, and usually only happens when they remove something (like the ability to move seated avs, jumpPos to beat the tiny limits imposed by sitting, etc)

they've released plenty that wasn't accessible to other viewers before, and I have no doubt they will continue to, including every new feature in V2, and in fact even sculpts back in the day weren't forced upon us until a security patch for an unrelated exploit required it (and even then we had TPV's although they weren't called that).

the things you mention have ZERO impact on release, and only limited impact on users generating content.... it's been shown repeatedly that new content drives adoption, not the other way around. If the code were already stabilized and available you'd see it in TPV's already (llTextbox anyone?). In point of fact LL has consistently marketed new features of the official version to bolster their stats since the TPV policies went into place.

Your reasoning on this is contrary to both LL's track record, all the technical facts we have access to, and even history in general.... it's about the same as saying that cars can't be made unless we first kill off all the horses. it's beyond ludicrous. The one does not rely on the other.

 

@Anna:
You might also try Cool VL. it uses a v1.5 codebase, and is kept very clean with current bugfixes, and includes backports of all the major features, and is often the first one to include them. it has what is probably the lowest system requirements of any viewer outside of the official v1 download, and runs more smoothly in my experience.

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1.x viewers are not adding any delay to mesh whatsoever.  1.x viewers are not preventing the adoption of mesh by creators.

Mesh is not yet here because it's not ready to be used on the main grid at present. Creators are not adopting it yet because the main grid does not support mesh.  Saying that 1.x is delaying adoption of mesh or slowing LL's work on mesh is frankly just absurd and bordering on being pure FUD.  Mesh will arrive when it's ready, and nobody should be wanting mesh to be deployed on the main grid before that point (does anyone reading this really want one of the largest changes to SL in years on the main grid before LL are extremely confident that the server code is ready?).

The truth is that mesh will eventually provide a major incentive for people to finally upgrade from 1.x to 2.x (and hopefully at that point there will be stable 2.x viewers that actually have all of the important features that keep many of us using 1.x).  2.x is still missing some critical functionality that estate managers and landowners need and depend on.  As it stands today, you could pay me to use a 2.x viewer, but I sincerely doubt that you could afford to do so!

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I had seen the category where MESH is being discussed but have yet to look and see what it is. Reading this thread piqued  my curiousity even more. MESH sounds exciting. I still use the old viewer the majority of the time even though I also have the new version. I just haven't spent time on the newer one to get a handle of how it works. The short time I am on it I just get a bit frustrated trying to figure things out  that I'll log off andlog back on using the old viewer. I have not had a problem with the old viewer for quite sometime personally. At most logged out for being idle or region being restarted.

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If one thinks Linden Lab (LL) is holding mesh back they’re not keeping up with events in Second Life. The ideas that content creators will wait for adoption of mesh viewer are certainly out of touch with the creative community.

Just to get some numbers into the discussion, viewer stats showed far less than half of the viewers in use were the SLV 1.23 version. Just post Emerald Scandal stats (Sept 2010 New World Notes):

Imprudence = 27%
Non-TPV Directory Viewer = 18%
Kirsten = 6%
SLV 1.23 = 14% (At poll time the standard viewer)
Snowglobe = 6%
RLV = 2%
--- End poll.

Guesstimate: Emerald 27% (at poll time many were abandoning Emerald)

The recent increase in new signups leads to even more users using SLV2. Third Party Viewers (TPV) use by the 2010 numbers was around 75%. Over the past 6 months that has been turning around.  Last I heard Lindens say TPV and SLV’s were about 50/50. SLV 1.23 use has steadily decreased. SLV2 has steadily increased. I suspect between 50 to 75% of residents are using mesh render capable viewers now. The mesh upload menu items hide in Mesh-Off regions.

It isn’t the mesh that is the big problem in series 1 viewers. It is clothes, outfits, and the failure of series 1 viewers to correctly render avatars wearing physics layers. Seeing a lot of Ruth’s lately? That Linden Lab has not updated 1.23 for clothes and physics problems I think shows it is near the end of its life.

Releasing mesh will likely push a huge number of people to update to SLV2 tech. It will likely move people off series 1 viewers to series 2. If a TPV is not supporting mesh, users will change to those that are or the SLViewer. It’s in LL interest, on several levels, to release mesh as soon as possible.

We are supposed to hear by the end of this month about mesh specs, costs, and roll out date. Then we can stop speculating. Then we’ll find out which of us have it backward.

As to resident creators not supporting mesh until a majority adopt SLV2 tech… clueless. Visit the ADITI grid where mesh is live. Most creators have a warehouse full of mesh waiting for release. Creators are begging for a release date.

The Lab is not holding mesh back. There are performance and technical issues that are delaying things. A lot of work is going into a Mesh Import Wizard so that novice modelers have a chance to learn how to use mesh. That Wizard is not a simple deal and appears to be part of the must-have-requirement for the initial release of mesh.

Many have not noticed the massive upgrade SL is undergoing. I can easily write 2k to 3k words per week on the week to week changes to SL. I am amazed that the Lab has allowed SLV 1.23 to remain on the grid this long. However, the discontent with SLV2 is massive, so they are trying to allow series 1 user to change over on their own (and that is happening). It is costing them time as they have to support the new stuff and legacy stuff (UDP Texture Get vs HTTP Texture Get). Still, the foundations of SL are rapidly changing.

Lots of these tidbits of information come from office hours meetings and the mailing list exchanges of the various project teams. One can read Daniel Voyager’s and my Nalates blogs and keep up on developments in SL without having to wade through the chat logs and geeky boring emails. Plus both blogs update you more often than the Lindens do.

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Kuda Oh wrote:

I had seen the category where MESH is being discussed but have yet to look and see what it is. Reading this thread piqued  my curiousity even more. MESH sounds exciting. I still use the old viewer the majority of the time even though I also have the new version. I just haven't spent time on the newer one to get a handle of how it works. The short time I am on it I just get a bit frustrated trying to figure things out  that I'll log off andlog back on using the old viewer. I have not had a problem with the old viewer for quite sometime personally. At most logged out for being idle or region being restarted.

This. I was over there too and even saw some pictures of clothes one guy made using "mesh". They looked like clothes. Possibly more detailed, than what we've had before, but I couldn't really say that with surety.

What is it? The only thing I've heard otherwise is that mesh avatars have no facial expressions and can't respond to any sliders that don't control bone length. Then what's the point? Why should I gibber and slobber with excitement?

Which, by the way is something I thoroughly enjoy doing and thus seek out opportunities to do so tirelessly.

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Nalates Urriah wrote:

It is costing them time as they have to support the new stuff and legacy stuff (UDP Texture Get vs HTTP Texture Get).


while I mostly agree with the rest of what you posted, this one thing stuck out at me as giving the entirely wrong impression.

while HTTP GET is a prefereable solution from the labs side, (and the accompanying HTTP inventory) it is not without problems, even within V2 and reverting to UDP by disabling these is one of the frequently suggested (and working) fixes for issues with slow or incomplete loading in ALL viewers. The problems are bad enough that the Phoenix devs decided to disable it by default in recent updates, until more improvements to the system can be made. Some of this is down to LL, and they have made improvements, but I think some of it has to due with network issues and prioritization.

Regardless, even if every v1 based viewer disappeared overnight, they'd still need to support the alternative until the worst remaining kinks in the HTTP transport are worked out. right now the biggest one seems to be incomplete and/or stalled loading. unfortunately those seem to hit inventory and avatar textures the hardest, and are arguable the most import to the end users. Maintenance of those methods remains at least until those issues are addressed, and to my knowledge all of the TPV's support the newer HTTP GET and even where disabled, can easily be changed.

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