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EEP Finally Out!


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3 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

the question has already been answered by Linden in the EEP implementation. Our viewer will only use a estate, parcel or Experience environment when we enable: Use Shared Environment

well.. that changes things then for me. I might have to try the viewer more to see how it feels. just I could not find the shared setting before, since its now moved to the world tab, where before I believe it was in preferences.

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1 hour ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

Only issue I see now is my computer is not really strong enough for using it. I loose 50% of my fps when using it.

This is exactly why I'm reluctant to try it.  I've seen a few people mention that it drop fps significantly.  Why did they feel adding something to the viewer which negatively impacts performance is an improvement?  

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I have used EEP in Black Dragon and did not see any noticeable drops in FPS that I can recall.  I have not used the Firestorm EEP or the official viewer however. Which viewer are you using Drakonadrgora? Do you normally run around with the advanced lighting settings on as well? When I go home today I might try the other viewers to see if I can recreate the drop. I too have an older machine.

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49 minutes ago, Laurel Aurelia said:

I have used EEP in Black Dragon and did not see any noticeable drops in FPS that I can recall.  I have not used the Firestorm EEP or the official viewer however. Which viewer are you using Drakonadrgora? Do you normally run around with the advanced lighting settings on as well? When I go home today I might try the other viewers to see if I can recreate the drop. I too have an older machine.

I use FS not really used BD much. Tried it once, was not really a fan of ui in it as much as with FS. I normally have advanced lighting and occulent occlusion off. I normally have my settings on about mid and can get 25 fps, but on the fs eep viewer it drops to about 14-18.

If I have everything turned on it drops to just about 5 fps even with everything turned down. It only has built in video, no dedicated video card.

Edited by Drakonadrgora Darkfold
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9 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

I turned a lot of things down or off, didnt make much difference. even turned off all the advanced lighting features. I still would lose about 25-50% of fps.

I gain about 20-25% when I turn off water but it is something they are looking into why there is such a difference. Another thing is that turning the graphics slider to minimum actually increases my FPS. It was mentioned the other day that the slider may not work as expected in some cases but its being looked into so don't give up on it yet.

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15 minutes ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

I use FS not really used BD much. Tried it once, was not really a fan of ui in it as much as with FS.

BD has a terrible UI, although you can customize it somewhat by customizing hotkeys and so on.

I know a lot of people who use it for photos -- including myself -- but I know literally no one who uses it as their "everyday" viewer. It's too clunky.

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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:

BD has a terrible UI, although you can customize it somewhat by customizing hotkeys and so on.

I know a lot of people who use it for photos -- including myself -- but I know literally no one who uses it as their "everyday" viewer. It's too clunky.

that was my problem with it. yes its good for photos and things similar but normal use.. nu uh.

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28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

BD has a terrible UI, although you can customize it somewhat by customizing hotkeys and so on.

I know a lot of people who use it for photos -- including myself -- but I know literally no one who uses it as their "everyday" viewer. It's too clunky.

Further it is limited to a singular OS.

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Tried latest sl viewer with my own ported windlight settings converted to eep.

Graphically speaking all of them look pretty good.

If firestorm manages to make a quick preferences tool to change the eep like the windlight it will be great.

But i really can not understand the change to eep besides the profit from selling them on MP and i really doubt LL will get rich with that.

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9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

BD has a terrible UI, although you can customize it somewhat by customizing hotkeys and so on.

I know a lot of people who use it for photos -- including myself -- but I know literally no one who uses it as their "everyday" viewer. It's too clunky.

 

9 hours ago, Drakonadrgora Darkfold said:

that was my problem with it. yes its good for photos and things similar but normal use.. nu uh.

Many people use it as their daily viewer, some use it exclusively only. Those you hear complaining about the UI are just the vocal minority. Most if not all of them are Firestorm users who come to expect Firestorm in something that clearly doesn't read Firestorm. It's just a matter of getting used to, which a lot of people seemingly don't want to because it would take a bit time, time they don't have because as we all know time is money and no one has money.

Personally i don't see much difference in any Viewer's UI. Controls are the same, camera works the same, building works the same, all of the functions can be found in the same place with minor variations. It's just the same SL with a slightly different color.

9 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Further it is limited to a singular OS.

I can't compile for OS's i don't have myself and as Catznip already said i won't blindly compile something i cannot make sure that i'd be happy with. Apart from that there are "options" for both OSX and Linux to run Windows applications. Anyone real users of these OS's have these "options" running anyway, most likely for a lot of other stuff not available for their OS and i personally doubt that the Viewer would have any big gains (performance) when compiled natively for OSX or Linux, especially if not specifically compiled with performance in mind... from a totally different OS, you might as well just run them via WINE for instance.

Edited by NiranV Dean
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1 hour ago, NiranV Dean said:

 

Many people use it as their daily viewer, some use it exclusively only. Those you hear complaining about the UI are just the vocal minority. Most if not all of them are Firestorm users who come to expect Firestorm in something that clearly doesn't read Firestorm. It's just a matter of getting used to, which a lot of people seemingly don't want to because it would take a bit time, time they don't have because as we all know time is money and no one has money.

 

I used to use it quite a bit back when it still had a Grid manager so as to be able to use it on other grids. Even after the Grid manager was removed, I managed to still make it be able to but eventually having to redo the changes on every new release became tiring and I wound up dumping it as did a few other friends I know. I don't care so much for whether it supports other OS's but I do want a viewer that can be used in other Grids as there is enough differences between Firestorm's and BD's UI that it would be a pain to switch back and forth depending on the Grid being logged into.

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4 hours ago, foneco Zuzu said:

But i really can not understand the change to eep besides the profit from selling them on MP and i really doubt LL will get rich with that.

i think the main impetus was to allow us to create full day cycles of our own design.  Quite a few estates, parcel owners and roleplay regions have done this

@Qie Niangaomentioned that they have (in conjunction with an Experience) created a stormy weather environment. The sky responds more/less darker and cloudy as the storm gains and lessens. I haven't seen it myself yet but assume that the scripted effects include rain, thunder and lightning on top of the sky environment changes

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2 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

Many people use it as their daily viewer, some use it exclusively only. Those you hear complaining about the UI are just the vocal minority. Most if not all of them are Firestorm users who come to expect Firestorm in something that clearly doesn't read Firestorm. It's just a matter of getting used to, which a lot of people seemingly don't want to because it would take a bit time, time they don't have because as we all know time is money and no one has money.

Personally i don't see much difference in any Viewer's UI. Controls are the same, camera works the same, building works the same, all of the functions can be found in the same place with minor variations. It's just the same SL with a slightly different color.

I am more than happy to take your word for this, although I have to see that those I know who use BD (and they comprise a pretty significant proportion of my active friends list) feel about it much as I do: it is a beautifully designed viewer for the dedicated purpose of taking pics, but awkward to use on a regular basis. But I'm sure that there is also something in what you say about being "used" to one viewer's particular interface.

Two differences with FS viewer do particularly stand out, though. One is area search: if it's on BD, I can't find it. And the second is the ability to be able to easily right click on an attachment from inventory to edit it.

All of which said, I am grateful for Black Dragon. It makes SL look marvelous.

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6 hours ago, Mollymews said:

@Qie Niangaomentioned that they have (in conjunction with an Experience) created a stormy weather environment. The sky responds more/less darker and cloudy as the storm gains and lessens. I haven't seen it myself yet but assume that the scripted effects include rain, thunder and lightning on top of the sky environment changes

Sorry if I was confusing: Any rain, thunder, and lightning would be up to the scripter to emulate from whatever non-EEP effects they've invented. Rather, EEP's LSL API lets scripts dynamically control skies (lighting, etc) for each avatar independently. Thus a script can make clouds move in and the sky darken, then maybe later clear up with the sun or moon coming out, etc., in any sequence for any agent on the parcel. It's up to the script how the sequences are synchronized, so each visitor to a parcel might see their own effects starting from their arrival, or their interaction with objects or storyline.

Edited by Qie Niangao
"then" not "them"
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45 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Sorry if I was confusing: Any rain, thunder, and lightning would be up to the scripter to emulate from whatever non-EEP effects they've invented.

ah! ok. So if there were things like rain and lightning then this would be scripted particles effects timed to line up with the scripted EEP sky effects

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12 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I used to use it quite a bit back when it still had a Grid manager so as to be able to use it on other grids. Even after the Grid manager was removed, I managed to still make it be able to but eventually having to redo the changes on every new release became tiring and I wound up dumping it as did a few other friends I know. I don't care so much for whether it supports other OS's but I do want a viewer that can be used in other Grids as there is enough differences between Firestorm's and BD's UI that it would be a pain to switch back and forth depending on the Grid being logged into.

The Grid Manager removal is on Linden Labs. It was part of the whole Havok/Mesh library thingy which they have to do apparently and so do we if we use Havok. I do not so technically i would be free from that and could offer other grids although i absolutely don't know how ever since they changed it. The grid lists are all over the place and i don't know how to fill them, i don't know what information to put it. On  top of that i do not use any other grid other than Agni and as far as i know other grids OpenSim Grids specifically need a lot of extra code that i'm not willing to put it, aside from basically back and forporting a lot of old features to make the Viewer compatible with it. It would make the Viewer get stuck in limbo between now and then and i don't see how that would do the Viewer good in any way.

11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I am more than happy to take your word for this, although I have to see that those I know who use BD (and they comprise a pretty significant proportion of my active friends list) feel about it much as I do: it is a beautifully designed viewer for the dedicated purpose of taking pics, but awkward to use on a regular basis. But I'm sure that there is also something in what you say about being "used" to one viewer's particular interface.

Two differences with FS viewer do particularly stand out, though. One is area search: if it's on BD, I can't find it. And the second is the ability to be able to easily right click on an attachment from inventory to edit it.

All of which said, I am grateful for Black Dragon. It makes SL look marvelous.

Both are features not found in BD. Area Search has been declined many times over the years due to its sole purpose being circumventing mechanics and cheating (in hunts for instance). There are other ways to find your own items (they are marked on the minimap, theres an option to select only your stuff, theres the region management that can select them if you own the parcel and so on). Edit from inventory has not been added due to the way it was suggested (as Firestorm feature) and because there is already a way to do so via the Advanced Complexity Window that has the ability to select attachments from the list of any avatar.

I don't see how the Viewer would be awkward to use on a regular basis. It has everything the Official Viewer has plus some more. All the Official Viewer offers is all that is required to do everything in Second Life and i've not had any encounter yet where i couldn't find a solution to a problem (such as finding my objects, selecting a certain attachment, building with high precision, scripting). It's just as awkward to switch from any given application to another, any game to any other game, as with everything its a matter of getting used to, which given that all Viewers fundamentally work the same shouldn't be hard given a bit time. I have the impression that people simply don't want to spend any time on anything that they can simply avoid, quite a lot of people have messaged me, telling me that they had issues getting used to the UI at first but found it to be much better and more intuitive once they actually spend the time getting used to it and i'm sure those people don't even know about all the little neat tricks you can do.

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6 hours ago, NiranV Dean said:

I don't see how the Viewer would be awkward to use on a regular basis. It has everything the Official Viewer has plus some more. All the Official Viewer offers is all that is required to do everything in Second Life and i've not had any encounter yet where i couldn't find a solution to a problem (such as finding my objects, selecting a certain attachment, building with high precision, scripting). It's just as awkward to switch from any given application to another, any game to any other game, as with everything its a matter of getting used to, which given that all Viewers fundamentally work the same shouldn't be hard given a bit time. I have the impression that people simply don't want to spend any time on anything that they can simply avoid, quite a lot of people have messaged me, telling me that they had issues getting used to the UI at first but found it to be much better and more intuitive once they actually spend the time getting used to it and i'm sure those people don't even know about all the little neat tricks you can do.

Official viewer is terrible, though. Usable? Gets the job done? Most definitely, but it is not good by any means. And given alternatives there's no good reason to ever get used to it, unless you want to do it out of principle. What is good and what is terrible are both completely subjective, of course.

I'll disagree with you about it only being awkward when it's about switching apps/games from one to another. Some UIs are just bad, and there are some personal quirks and preferences (for instance I always switch Y axis in games to inverted, the lack of this is a deal breaker for me, but lots of people might not care). Good examples would be Xbox One's UI and PSN's store UI. They were clunky on release, and they are clunky, inconvenient and a hassle to use less than a month before next gen consoles release. As with official LL viewer they do get the job done, but it doesn't make them any better, just like all those countless Google's experiments on Youtube's UI through the years (left aligned one was the worst, I remember adding a lot of CSS scripts to fix that abomination) and lots of other examples.

Back in 2012 when I first gave SL a serious try I did try pretty much every viewer that was available at that time and the UI was the decisive factor of why I chose FS over anything else that was available, the rest of features (or the lack of those) didn't bothered me back then for obvious reasons. It's just my example, of course, but it was done without any bias towards any viewer style as I had zero experience using either.

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18 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Official viewer is terrible, though. Usable? Gets the job done? Most definitely, but it is not good by any means. And given alternatives there's no good reason to ever get used to it, unless you want to do it out of principle.

Every new feature appears first in the Linden viewer, so if one wants to try those features or position oneself to make use of them when they're widely available, it's the only game in town. It can be a year or more before some viewers adopt some features, of which a chunk may be the Lab working out how the feature (notably including EEP) is really supposed to work before making it available to TPV devs. Hence, that early exposure can be frustrating, but it's the only chance to influence development.

(Otherwise, I'm personally addicted to a couple features of Catznip. Can't make heads nor tails of Firestorm, although I certainly appreciate the effort that goes into developing and supporting it.)

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On 10/24/2020 at 10:57 PM, steeljane42 said:

Official viewer is terrible, though. Usable? Gets the job done? Most definitely, but it is not good by any means. And given alternatives there's no good reason to ever get used to it, unless you want to do it out of principle. What is good and what is terrible are both completely subjective, of course.

I'll disagree with you about it only being awkward when it's about switching apps/games from one to another. Some UIs are just bad, and there are some personal quirks and preferences (for instance I always switch Y axis in games to inverted, the lack of this is a deal breaker for me, but lots of people might not care). Good examples would be Xbox One's UI and PSN's store UI. They were clunky on release, and they are clunky, inconvenient and a hassle to use less than a month before next gen consoles release. As with official LL viewer they do get the job done, but it doesn't make them any better, just like all those countless Google's experiments on Youtube's UI through the years (left aligned one was the worst, I remember adding a lot of CSS scripts to fix that abomination) and lots of other examples.

Back in 2012 when I first gave SL a serious try I did try pretty much every viewer that was available at that time and the UI was the decisive factor of why I chose FS over anything else that was available, the rest of features (or the lack of those) didn't bothered me back then for obvious reasons. It's just my example, of course, but it was done without any bias towards any viewer style as I had zero experience using either.

Luckily i haven't used those although i can see why they are bad (for the same reason Windows 10 tile UI is so horrid). There are reasons to use the Official Viewer though, i use it to test if something is a my-Viewer issue or a global one. I also use it to upload meshes since i'm strictly against TPV's offering this capability (due to things that already happened in the past).

As User however i'd try around Viewers once in a while. Viewers change. LL's UI wasn't always this bad. Around 2.7 (~2013) the UI was a lot better. Over the years they have just made everything worse, bigger, more space wasting, empty. Up to 2.7 however they only ever improved on 2.0 which was generally received very badly but they did their best to get all the issues fixed. Their biggest problem was the sidebar and how fixed it was, all of this was solved in subsequent updates and pretty fast too. I think it was already around 2.1 or 2.2 when they made the sidebar detachable. By then people already gave up on the Official Viewer, it had to fight the bad sidebar reputation even long past 3.0 which entirely removed it because all those who hated it for it never ever looked into it again but kept complaining how bad it is even though their issues were long fixed. It was kinda sad to see. Most Viewer developers spend a lot of time to improve what they can, when they can, if it makes sense to do so. I've spend over 7 years on the Preferences window alone (as it is arguably the central arrival point for everything), i've tried countless layouts, countless approaches just to get preferences in a less messy "just stuff everything in" place that doesn't look like i gave up on it because its hopeless. I'm still working on it from time to time to improve it, it will never be perfect, SL has a million options and presenting them all in a logical, grouped, consistent manner isn't easy and i can't make SL's UI look like that of traditional games due to the limitations the UI has (such as super bad scaling) and the sheer amount of information and options available, this presents a huge issue.

7 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Every new feature appears first in the Linden viewer, so if one wants to try those features or position oneself to make use of them when they're widely available, it's the only game in town. It can be a year or more before some viewers adopt some features, of which a chunk may be the Lab working out how the feature (notably including EEP) is really supposed to work before making it available to TPV devs. Hence, that early exposure can be frustrating, but it's the only chance to influence development.

Oh come on! That was an unnecessarily long way of describing around that Firestorm simply takes ages to implement anything.

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On 10/24/2020 at 10:29 AM, NiranV Dean said:

The Grid Manager removal is on Linden Labs. It was part of the whole Havok/Mesh library thingy which they have to do apparently and so do we if we use Havok. I do not so technically i would be free from that and could offer other grids although i absolutely don't know how ever since they changed it. The grid lists are all over the place and i don't know how to fill them, i don't know what information to put it. On  top of that i do not use any other grid other than Agni and as far as i know other grids OpenSim Grids specifically need a lot of extra code that i'm not willing to put it, aside from basically back and forporting a lot of old features to make the Viewer compatible with it. It would make the Viewer get stuck in limbo between now and then and i don't see how that would do the Viewer good in any way.

I would be happy enough to just have a Grid manager accessible that allows other grids to be added in manually without having to use a hex editor. The way I sort of understood it is that LL's recommendation for the TPV's to use separate code bases for other Grids, was more because of potential conflicts with the planned EEP enhancement and that turned out to be a non issue in the end.

Opensim is pretty much up to date with server side support for all the latest enhancements like EEP, BoM, Animesh etc. Older Opensim specific features might still be a thing but majority of viewers still have that code in it anyway unless it was specifically ripped out.

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/30/2020 at 11:36 AM, Chic Aeon said:

You CAN avoid it for a long while still --- perhaps long enough for some of those major bugs to still be fixed. Note this is a FS BETA viewer and not a regular release, so it won't even count against the actual REAL NEED to update eventually.     I will say that Qie's post above has me interested :D.    AND my latest EEP tests on the current Linden viewer showed that there have been some good fixes since EEP went live a few months ago.  

 

 

No, actually, you can't. LOL. Unless you think 4 months was long. I don't.

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