What does a post covid-19 world look like to you?

[Lindal Kidd]

11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The argument Musk, Ma, and others make is that our social systems depend on a constant influx of young workers to support the elderly. It's a Ponzi scheme of sorts. The Japanese are facing this problem right now.

https://www.marke*****ch.com/story/retiring-in-japan-seniors-greatly-outnumber-younger-workers-and-thats-a-big-problem-for-everyone-2019-09-06

This is why I created several children...to have enough people to care for me in my rapidly-approaching old age. 

[Lindal Kidd]

43 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

the third world, the world of subsistence existence, wants nothing to do with population control.

Because subsistence existence requires a huge amount of manual labor, which in turn requires a lot of people.  Agrarian societies had large families for a reason!

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Because subsistence existence requires a huge amount of manual labor, which in turn requires a lot of people.  Agrarian societies had large families for a reason!

Baby making is also a response to the stressors that create high infant mortality rates. The best way to decrease birth rates is make sure the babies we do have stay alive.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

28 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

This is why I created several children...to have enough people to care for me in my rapidly-approaching old age. 

Good for you, Lindal!

That idea has actually never crossed my mind, and ultimately led to my divorce. My ex-hubby was carrying the mom gene.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Lindal Kidd]

The reason I love debating with Maddy is that

• We agree with each other and keep making remarks and nodding sagely for a long time, or
• She makes a point, supported by actual references, that destroys my argument, or
• She sets me on fire.

Any of those outcomes is very satisfying.

[Madelaine McMasters]

9 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The reason I love debating with Maddy is that

• We agree with each other and keep making remarks and nodding sagely for a long time, or
• She makes a point, supported by actual references, that destroys my argument, or
• She sets me on fire.

Any of those outcomes is very satisfying.

What about those times you destroy my argument?

I love learning as much as you do!

[Luna Bliss]

Well I see you guys have mutually misturbated each other into believing technology will save us.  Monkeys do that under stress, so I do have some sympathy. But I've yet to see either of you convince me that technology will indeed save us.

Doing more of the same with our clever tricks won't cut it...I think psychosis is how they define this behavior...doing the same over and over but expecting a different result.

Only a change in consciousness will save us, but I kind of doubt that will happen in time.  I have a sliver of hope however...

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I'm reluctant to condemn that many people to death simply in order to achieve "balance".

I don't think you have to condemn them....you only need to wait a few years...

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Ideas spread like infectious diseases, or evolutionarily advantageous mutations. If an idea (industrialization) confers some advantage, it'll spread. The idea of subsistence living will not survive. It requires reduction of the host population.

Industrialization, and the population explosion that's resulted, certainly strains the environment. I think the solution will be, like it or not, more technology. Have you noticed that those societies in which birth rates are below replacement are... industrialized? I'm not sure that's sustainable, but the third world, the world of subsistence existence, wants nothing to do with population control.

There are indigenous people we can learn from -- ones who have not had much contact with the Western world (and so not the ones you referenced here).

They have no need to overpopulate like rabbits, and they don't.

[FairreLilette]

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are many indigenous tribes in existence today that have no desire to industrialize.

Many tribes are industrialized in different ways though...that's how they survive, but it's more like "trading" their goods and it's always been that way.  

INDUSTRY

any general business activity; commercial enterprise: the Italian tourist industry.

trade or manufacture in general: the rise of industry in Africa.

____________________________________

Even in the Amazon Rain forest, there are indigenous people who have worked to collect an all natural plant product from the Amazon Rain Forest and sell it for an all natural hair product called Ojon in the 21st Century.  Ojon was bought out, so I don't know the currents of it.  

The ancient Inca's had one of the greatest empires in the world.  They could freeze dry their food; built aqueducts as well as were mining for gold and silver.  Unfortunately, the ancient somewhat modernized civilizations were conquered by the marauding Spanish Conquistadors and wiped out the predecessors of early civilization.  

Most modern tribes though do have some sort of trading from their medicine man to their wedding maker.  

Bali trades it's silver jewelry and has been selling on home shopping networks for decades.  It's all hand-crafted in silver and semi precious gems.  

https://www.jtv.com/category/brand/artisan-collection-of-bali/_/N-2479917096

Some first nations peoples in Mexico have been selling Taxco Silver for decades.  Original Taxco Silver jewelry is highly collectible.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxco

The Philippines is way industrialized now but has also been a hub of pirated products and reproductions.  I know, I am an antiques and collectibles dealer who dealt with some of it.  

With most "tribal people" of today, there is some kind of working hand-in-hand with industry going on.  

I know because I've sold a lot of it.  

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by FairreLilette

[LittleMe Jewell]

From watching many different movies, I already know that technology will save us............. and then it will doom us.

 

However, I do not think that it will happen in my lifetime.  Maybe in my kids' lifetime, but possibly not even that soon.  For "lifetime" reference, I'm in my mid-50s and my kids are in their lower/mid 30s

[LittleMe Jewell]

3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are many indigenous tribes in existence today that have no desire to industrialize.

Only somewhat indirectly related - this statement reminded me of a sad new article I saw the other day.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/10/world/yanomami-amazon-coronavirus-brazil-trnd/index.html 

 

All because of the illegal minors that are there.

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell

[Storm Clarence]

I have to admit some of who posted are really big thinkers and can articulate their thoughts very well.  Some are really big sci-fi-ish (excuse the coinage) thinkers.  I enjoy reading all.  I wish I was able to articulate as well as some.  I guess that's why I asked the question I did as the OP.  Thank you all, this has been, for the most part, a really, really good read.  

[Selene Gregoire]

I'm starting to feel like the elephant in the room. 

[Lyssa Greymoon]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

From watching many different movies, I already know that technology will save us............. and then it will doom us.

Hand they keys over to Skynet and everything will be fine, meatbags.

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I'm starting to feel like the elephant in the room. 

...blindfolds a bunch of men and sends them to your room with instructions to report what they've found.

[Roxy Couturier]

On 4/11/2020 at 9:20 AM, Tolya Ugajin said:

There's no need to be gentle.  I don't break 😛

As I've pointed out, most people do not yet know the details of how the unemployment rules work, as they haven't even been fully implemented. Once it becomes more widely known, it seems unlikely someone would keep working for $12/hr when they could collect $15/hr on unemployment.  It wouldn't be a logical decision.  For some reason, I keep getting accused of demeaning people for saying many are likely take the logical course of action.  But, then, humans are often irrational.

Even before the new unemployment generosity came out, 6% of production employees at one of my manufacturing plants had taken some excuse (maybe just a pretext, maybe legitimate, one can't really know) to utilize our various leave options we added for the situation.  About half have indicated they will go on unemployment rather than return once their leaves run out.  A handful of my field personnel have done the same.  That number seems small, but we pay rather well (especially the field personnel) and have excellent benefits and large numbers of long-term employees.  My local grocery store was recently hiring at $10/hr for adults, and has lousy benefits from what I have heard.  You really think that, out of a sense or moral obligation or community duty, those folks won't take a 50% pay increase (minimum) to stay home and not potentially be exposed at work?

 

I don't think you quite understand how unemployment works (or doesn't work). At all.

You can't just quit and then get benefits. You have to have lost your job due to no fault of your own. Many employers will challenge when an ex-employee tries that. Because Fraud.

You don't just sit around living the good life (on $275/week max here in FL wooo hoo party time!), you have to report your job search while on unemployment. which means you have to provide contacts. Don't go looking? Don't get benefits. Could you lie? I guess, but many states are really really really afraid of benefits fraudsters and will investigate iffy claims. Because that's somehow more cost effective than just paying a pittance in benefits.

Many are finding out how frustrating the unemployment system is. People here are complaining that nearly 2 weeks after losing their job they still can't get through to even apply for the first week. I know you don't want to hear this, but it's due to decades of Republican lawmakers gutting the system. When I was on unemployment it would take hours to get through to the benefits line. Oh, of course I could always just go down to the conveniently located Career Center just up the street when I couldn't get through either by phone or computer.. only to find an empty office with.. a phone and computer. That was over 6 years ago. Long before Corona.

I know this is a wild and crazy idea, but instead of subsistence wages, maybe these employers could pay a living wage and make those jobs something to covet. How radical of me to suggest that we treat people as something other than an easily disposable resource.

Also add into those calculations that the majority really do want to work and the 'extra' benefits are only for 4 months. Most unemployment benefits run out after 12 weeks (that's 3 months). Thanks Republicans for being the guardians of whatever it was you were protecting us from. Like voting fraud.

Oh, but if you get sick or have to quarantine, you aren't eligible for unemployment. Hope that crap job pays for it!

Oh and one last thing. You mentioned parents being able to state they have to stay home to watch kids that cannot go to school as if it was a bad or somehow morally wrong to do. I, personally, would much rather have them home, watching their kids. There's already been a rise here in petty crime because the schools are closed. So which is better in your mind? Go to work and not be a lazy unemployment seeking party town resident, or be a responsible parent and watch your lazy criminal kids? I'm pretty sure either way whichever is the most negative light at the time is the way you'll go with at any given time.

You aren't, as you always claim, thinking things through logically at all. Your suppositions are anecdotal at best. Most people generally listen to their better angels. Most people aren't lazy and feckless even those already on unemployment. Voter fraud really isn't a thing except as an excuse for voter suppression. It's really a Faux News inspired knee jerk. But you do you boo.

[Luna Bliss]

16 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

19 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are many indigenous tribes in existence today that have no desire to industrialize.

Many tribes are industrialized in different ways though...that's how they survive, but it's more like "trading" their goods and it's always been that way.  

INDUSTRY

any general business activity; commercial enterprise: the Italian tourist industry.

trade or manufacture in general: the rise of industry in Africa.

____________________________________

Even in the Amazon Rain forest, there are indigenous people who have worked to collect an all natural plant product from the Amazon Rain Forest and sell it for an all natural hair product called Ojon in the 21st Century.  Ojon was bought out, so I don't know the currents of it.  

The ancient Inca's had one of the greatest empires in the world.  They could freeze dry their food; built aqueducts as well as were mining for gold and silver.  Unfortunately, the ancient somewhat modernized civilizations were conquered by the marauding Spanish Conquistadors and wiped out the predecessors of early civilization.  

Most modern tribes though do have some sort of trading from their medicine man to their wedding maker.  

Bali trades it's silver jewelry and has been selling on home shopping networks for decades.  It's all hand-crafted in silver and semi precious gems.  

https://www.jtv.com/category/brand/artisan-collection-of-bali/_/N-2479917096

Some first nations peoples in Mexico have been selling Taxco Silver for decades.  Original Taxco Silver jewelry is highly collectible.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxco

The Philippines is way industrialized now but has also been a hub of pirated products and reproductions.  I know, I am an antiques and collectibles dealer who dealt with some of it.  

With most "tribal people" of today, there is some kind of working hand-in-hand with industry going on.  

I know because I've sold a lot of it.  

To have some industrial activity, to trade, is not the same as having a society where industrialization is so prominent:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/industrialization

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

To have some industrial activity, to trade, is not the same as having a society where industrialization is so prominent:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/industrialization

I think you are confusing the Industrial Revolution, AKA the machine age, with industry or being industrious in general.  Being industrious often involves those who are skillful.  Tribal peoples are very, very skillful, imo...or they wouldn't have survived, and most are quite adaptable.   

But, it's really neither here nor there.

The machine age is another thing.  As this new machine age advances into robotics, will we now turn to more hand-crafted items as those that have the real value or....?   

[FairreLilette]

13 hours ago, Roxy Couturier said:

How radical of me to suggest that we treat people as something other than an easily disposable resource.

I'm not actually replying to this as though it is erroneous but we already are expendables.  I simply wanted to say that in America, jobs have been in-sourced and out-sourced to death.

Pre Coronavirus:  My ex worked for hospitals and was told to come in to work or be fired even if he had a fever of 103!   The hospital employers didn't give hardly any paid sick leave, he'd often have to take vacation days as sick days.  But, that isn't even the problem.  His employers made it clear, "we can get people to work for less than you."  Not only did they say they could get people to work for less than what most American's had been accustomed to, they did through an influx of Filipinos and others.  

It is so weird how hospitals didn't even care if they made people come into work with colds and flus to how they are now with the coronavirus.  Hospitals never cared before if you came into work sick...they demanded it or you were replaced period.  

Welcome to the world of expendables, AKA people.   It's already in progress.  

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

The machine age is another thing.  As this new machine age advances into robotics, will we now turn to more hand-crafted items as those that have the real value or....?   

Well unfortunately, Fairre, I don't think we're going to get to see much of this. Reading climate science I think we're headed for a great big crash, not to speak of how Covid will be setting us back. That's why I occupy my mind with 'what went wrong' I guess....if I knew what went wrong I'd know what could be right, even if it can't be applied in my lifetime.

[FairreLilette]

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well unfortunately, Fairre, I don't think we're going to get to see much of this. Reading climate science I think we're headed for a great big crash, not to speak of how Covid will be setting us back. That's why I occupy my mind with 'what went wrong' I guess....if I knew what went wrong I'd know what could be right, even if it can't be applied in my lifetime.

I think at the heart of the failing, it's exploitation.   And, imo, exploitation of workers.   The rich man just keeps importing people who will work for less and most unions, pensions and health care benefits are now gone in America.  

So, what is the rich man in the shadows going to do though if there is no one there to consume his goods?  This means all the rich man in the shadows really needs are machines to produce food and other basic essentials like clothing; thus, making most machines obsolete.  

But still, I don't know what went wrong either.  Some say it was greed as to why all systems eventually fail.  

Edited April 14, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

So, what is the rich man in the shadows going to do though if there is no one there to consume his goods?

Yes I was reading about how civilizations fail the other day, and it's like they eat themselves  ...  

Only this time, the whole globe is going down it seems...     

 

[Luna Bliss]

I think this Native conceptualization of greed, called Wetiko, is apropos:

https://www.kosmosjournal.org/article/seeing-wetiko-on-capitalism-mind-viruses-and-antidotes-for-a-world-in-transition/

[FairreLilette]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think this Native conceptualization of greed, called Wetiko, is apropos:

https://www.kosmosjournal.org/article/seeing-wetiko-on-capitalism-mind-viruses-and-antidotes-for-a-world-in-transition/

Well, that made me cry.  

My sister would love talking with you, Luna.  She is a very brilliant mind...although she is prone to depression.  I hope she makes it through all this as she has made great strides coming out of her depression.   I guess I'm crying for her.  This is not a good time to be someone with a depressed illness that is for sure.  

Hugs.