What does a post covid-19 world look like to you?

[Ardy Lay]

The concept of ownership is possibly what you are reaching for in these last few posts here.  Ownership, envy, greed and hoarding at the cost of all else and even others might all be the things that bring us down.

[Luna Bliss]

2 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

The concept of ownership is possibly what you are reaching for in these last few posts here.  Ownership, envy, greed and hoarding at the cost of all else and even others might all be the things that bring us down.

Yes, that's it.

We belong to the world, the world doesn't belong to us.

[Sassy Kenin]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's why I meditate -

Maybe if you meditate long enough you might open your eyes in a parallel world not heading into some dystopian nightmare- Sunshine outlook! Kidd would be proud!🤣 joking aside in a Post Covid World people are going to have different viewpoints like anything else about whats going down..So it's just the frog in the pot again in my opinion. what i can say is no one is going to force vaccinate me or my family, they are not going to stop me from traveling or buying food because i didn't pretend to be a dog and get my 'shots'.

Many already know whats in those vaccinations and why the big pharmaceutical industry is exempt from lawsuits so enuff said from me

Well I'm out of this thread, it's ran it's course for me..my viewpoint of Hope for the Best while Expecting the Worst.

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Shansi Kenin said:

they are not going to stop me from traveling or buying food because i didn't pretend to be a dog and get my 'shots'

[Madelaine McMasters]

15 minutes ago, Shansi Kenin said:

what i can say is no one is going to force vaccinate me or my family, they are not going to stop me from traveling or buying food because i didn't pretend to be a dog and get my 'shots'.

It's too early to say how this will all play about, but you might well be stopped from traveling if you don't have proof of immunity. That topic was discussed on my local NPR station this morning, citing sports venues as one place that may require proof of immunity for admittance, along with airlines. That proof would come in the form of either infection-and-recovery or vaccination. If the former, you'll have to submit a sample for antibody testing, potentially on some continuing periodic basis.

There's some irony in proclaiming more agency than a dog while hobbling yourself with willful ignorance of the benefits of vaccines.

[Pussycat Catnap]

No more icky shaking hands. Always hated that custom.

It was worse when I lived in Asia. Because I was American EVERYONE went out of their way to line up to shake my hands to be polite and nice to me and there was no socially acceptable way I could tell them to back the heck off and somebody give me a Clorox wipe...

/Monk

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

59 minutes ago, Shansi Kenin said:

what i can say is no one is going to force vaccinate me or my family, they are not going to stop me from traveling or buying food because i didn't pretend to be a dog and get my 'shots'.

They should, and unless you have a medical reason that prevents you from taking a vaccine - they should put you on some remote island way the freak away from any other living thing - even a freaking butterfly... until you do.

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Shansi Kenin said:

what i can say is no one is going to force vaccinate me or my family, they are not going to stop me from traveling or buying food because i didn't pretend to be a dog and get my 'shots'.

Why give your dog shots either? Rabies makes 'em super lively...

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's not so much that they had the ability to not overstep as that they did not have the ability to overstep.

Not ability so much as it was a completely alien concept. If the idea ever occured it would have been hundreds or even  thousands of years in the future before it would have happened, as long as the balance was maintained.

[Selene Gregoire]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I'm not at all saying they had simple minds. They're just technologically unable to do what large manufacturing societies can do. Life expectancy of American Natives in pre-colonial times was pretty low, as it was for the new European settlers. We've come a long way since then, and I expect we've got a long way to go.

Not that low. It was pretty common for people to live 60 - 80 years and more.

[Pussycat Catnap]

2 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

It's not so much that they had the ability to not overstep as that they did not have the ability to overstep.

If not for the after effects of the Black Plague and Genghis Khan Europe might have been one of those places lacking the ability to overstep.

The Black Plague killed so many, leaving Europe a ruinous place of death and disease with no ability to recover... and then some fool left his gun collection on the back porch before going home...

Lacking the Khan's guns, method of using lines of musketmen, and cavalry that he let retire in Eastern Europe... the Europeans would probably have been wiped out by the Moors who would today be talking about them as the 'noble savages' that make up 1% of their collective ancestry...

Obviously there are a lot more factors to it than that... but I'd call those the two critical pieces: motive and means to wage wars of conquest.

(Another major piece of motive, in stage 2 of it all - when they reach the Americas, was the situation for Spain: having just won a war of many generations, now faced with hordes of jobless young men who were armed to the teeth that it had no gold left to pay the salaries of... it had to send them somewhere before -bleep- got real at home...)

p.s.: this is why, after the English defeated the Spanish Armada a few centuries later; they left all the non-gentry sailors on the ships a mile offshore of England until they starved to death. They'd promised them land, and realized they didn't have the land to give them, and didn't yet have the ability to send them all west. The USA tried a similar trick at the end of WWI... and it almost ended with American soldiers fighting veterans on the streets of our cities. Instead (if I remember right, but this part is very fuzzy for me) they came up with the funds to pay them.

And to cycle back... it's probably why the Khan left his soldiers and guns behind in Europe at the end of his attempt to conquer the Germanic tribes... if they'd come home; he would have had to deal with them and them having all those guns... so instead he helped arm the people that would later occupy his homeland in Soviet times... oops...

 

It does make you wonder what opportunist will strike at the end of this pandemic. As others have noted; the world right now is prime pickings for Red China and it's influence...

 

 

Now to cycle back even more... not having the ability to overstep...

 

The Aztecs only ruled in Tenochtitlan for a few decades before Cortez showed up with an army of some 20,000 Toltez Cholos ready to low-ride all over them...
- If Cortez had failed, if those Toltec had been on the Aztec's side... there is a people who could have taken his ships and sailed over to Spain when it was weak... and stomped that hood.

But the Aztecs were brutal rulers, invaders... and universally disliked. Go to Mexico City today and the neighborhoods are a lesson in "this is the place where the Aztecs forced the folks living here to be slaves and do X, Y, or Z... the folks you see here now are the descendants of that Toltec tribe, no Aztec survived that war alive anywhere within reach of this hood..."

- Bad politics and amazing timing is what doomed the Aztec's ability to 'overstep'. Nothing more...

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Madelaine McMasters]

15 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Not that low. It was pretty common for people to live 60 - 80 years and more.

https://books.google.com/books?id=BPdgiysIVcgC&pg=PA248&dq=aztec++life+expectancy&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VOCXUNWIC8mq2gW29YGAAw&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=aztec life expectancy&f=false

That's Aztek, and perhaps not representative of other groups/regions. I like that the linked passage uses life expectancy, in additional years, for those who were 15. Though related, infant mortality and life expectancy are not the same thing.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Madelaine McMasters]

17 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Not ability so much as it was a completely alien concept.

Every new concept is completely alien at the start.

Humans are tool users. Was it inevitable that we'd eventually industrialize? We can't run the experiment over again, but would we end up in a similar place, sooner or later, in any iteration?

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Humans are tool users. Was it inevitable that we'd eventually industrialize? We can't run the experiment over again, but would we end up in a similar place, sooner or later, in any iteration?

There are many indigenous tribes in existence today that have no desire to industrialize.

[Madelaine McMasters]

14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are many indigenous tribes in existence today that have no desire to industrialize.

I don't think that's got much bearing on my argument. All it takes is for one society to head in that direction.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Sassy Kenin]

41 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

They should, and unless you have a medical reason that prevents you from taking a vaccine - they should put you on some remote island way the freak away from any other living thing - even a freaking butterfly... until you do.

I'm out of this thread but i have an ethical reason

41 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Why give your dog shots either? Rabies makes 'em super lively...

The point is I'm not an animal and can make choices, the Nazis never took power the blind people allowed them to walk in and take over ..I'm out of this thread

55 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

There's some irony in proclaiming more agency than a dog while hobbling yourself with willful ignorance of the benefits of vaccines

Yeah i do not want the tissue of an aborted baby in my body or the autism that is directly linked to Mercury poisoning .

 

I am out of this thread , any questions just private message me or add me as a friend..please respect this

[Luna Bliss]

4 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

There are many indigenous tribes in existence today that have no desire to industrialize.

I don't think that's got much bearing on my argument. All it takes is for one society to head in that direction.

Why would it take only one?  I would think that if a certain percentage of indigenous cultures did not industrialize that this would demonstrate they have something unique within them (compared to Western societies) that could have led to a better world.  One bad apple wouldn't spoil the whole bunch.

[Lyssa Greymoon]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why would it take only one?  I would think that if a certain percentage of indigenous cultures did not industrialize that this would demonstrate they have something unique within them (compared to Western societies) that could have led to a better world.  One bad apple wouldn't spoil the whole bunch.

One apple will build Maxim guns and shoot all the other apples.

[Lindal Kidd]

It's most probable that neither Ghengis nor Kublai Khan had guns, though some debate this.  Most hold that they were a Chinese invention.  If the Khans did have 'em, they got them from their conquest of China.  The first practical use of them in the West that I can find is when the Mamluks used primitive cannon against the Mongols in 1260.

But that is a quibble.  My main objection to the more recent posts in the thread is their negativity, and the apparent celebration of the "natural man".  While it's true that primitive cultures lived more "in harmony" with nature, those who desire a return to those days always overlook an important fact:  doing so would require the death of 90% of humanity.

I'm reluctant to condemn that many people to death simply in order to achieve "balance".

I believe that the same incredibly fertile human ingenuity and drive to understand that got us into the present mess(es) will also be what gets us out of it/them.  New virus?  Invent a new vaccine!  Overpopulation?  Invent effective birth control!  Pollution?  Invent clean power, and make it so affordable it replaces the dirty old ways!  Running out of resources?  Find new and more efficient methods of using and re-using them.  Go to space to find more!

Things look dark right now.  But show a little optimism!  We'll figure something out...for everything!  (Or, of course, we won't.  But that's a null case, because if THAT happens, we won't be around to care.)

[Madelaine McMasters]

2 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

7 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Why would it take only one?  I would think that if a certain percentage of indigenous cultures did not industrialize that this would demonstrate they have something unique within them (compared to Western societies) that could have led to a better world.  One bad apple wouldn't spoil the whole bunch.

One apple will build Maxim guns and shoot all the other apples.

Ideas spread like infectious diseases, or evolutionarily advantageous mutations. If an idea (industrialization) confers some advantage, it'll spread. The idea of subsistence living will not survive. It requires reduction of the host population.

Industrialization, and the population explosion that's resulted, certainly strains the environment. I think the solution will be, like it or not, more technology. Have you noticed that those societies in which birth rates are below replacement are... industrialized? I'm not sure that's sustainable, but the third world, the world of subsistence existence, wants nothing to do with population control.

[Madelaine McMasters]

5 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Overpopulation?  Invent effective birth control!

You make overpopulation sound like a bad thing!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/30/elon-musk-jack-ma-biggest-problem-world-will-face-is-population-drop.html

[Madelaine McMasters]

3 minutes ago, Sassy Kenin said:

The point is I'm not an animal and can make choices, the Nazis never took power the blind people allowed them to walk in and take over ..I'm out of this thread

Yeah i do not want the tissue of an aborted baby in my body or the autism that is directly linked to Mercury poisoning .

How much of a choice is an uninformed one?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/

[Lindal Kidd]

"You make overpopulation sound like a bad thing!"

Depends on how you look at it.  More population gives you more chances to make friends, find a mate, or produce a genius (to solve the problems of overpopulation!).  It also consumes more resources, reduces the amount of arable land, chokes out other species, and creates more waste and pollution.

At one end, we have small bands of hunter-gatherers.  At the other, we have everyone packed shoulder to shoulder and pushing the unlucky ones off into the water.  Where the best balance may be depends on the level of technology available, and cultural norms.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Lindal Kidd

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

"You make overpopulation sound like a bad thing!"

Depends on how you look at it.  More population gives you more chances to make friends, find a mate, or produce a genius (to solve the problems of overpopulation!).  It also consumes more resources, reduces the amount of arable land, chokes out other species, and creates more waste and pollution.

At one end, we have small bands of hunter-gatherers.  At the other, we have everyone packed shoulder to shoulder and pushing the unlucky ones off into the water.  Where the best balance may be depends on the level of technology available, and cultural norms.

The argument Musk, Ma, and others make is that our social systems depend on a constant influx of young workers to support the elderly. It's a Ponzi scheme of sorts. The Japanese are facing this problem right now.

https://www.marke*****ch.com/story/retiring-in-japan-seniors-greatly-outnumber-younger-workers-and-thats-a-big-problem-for-everyone-2019-09-06

[Sassy Kenin]

3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

How much of a choice is an uninformed one?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/

Your continuing to try and drag me into the conversation by highlighting me... I am out of this thread.