Do you need to vent about things COVID-19?

[JanuarySwan]

11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The concept of herd immunity vastly predates the invention of vaccines. Herd immunity was one factor in the eventual decline of the black plague in the 1300s. Vaccines are the preferred method to achieve herd immunity because they prevent the spread of the disease while avoiding the symptoms of it, one of which may be death (cull).

I don't know much about the black plaque and how it stopped...some of these things in history seem surreal since we weren't there.  But, maybe they should update the term to "vaccinating the herd" because that is really what will make us immune.  The problem is in America there are times vaccines are not mandatory.   Plus, Covid-19 is vicious in that even if we've had it we don't know how long the antibodies will last.  And even with the first vaccine it's thought it may not be enough which kind of eludes to almost admitting the antibodies don't last all that long.  Our herd may need several vaccines.  From what I've heard pretty much across the board though is it could be a couple of years before herd immunity (and even this does not include all as some may decline to have a vaccine) but since most of the herd will be vaccinated, it's thought there shouldn't be too many cases nor spread any longer.

G'nite.  

Edited May 18, 2020 by JanuarySwan

[Madelaine McMasters]

Just now, Mollymews said:

i interpret what Sweden did a bit differently.  Sweden penned separately  only those animals they found to be sick, taking them from the one big pen as they were discovered. Other farmers divided up their one big pen into lots of separate pens (because they had the pens to do so), reducing the spread of infection between the animals

like you say this was a strategic decision. The farmers (next door to Sweden) to date have lost less animals than has the Swedish farmer

I didn't say Sweden's strategy was correct, just that it was different. I also mispoke a bit. Their decision was not to pen those with low vulnerability (general population) but those with high vulnerability (lock down the nursing facilities). Unaccounted for (probably forever) in all this is the pecuniary aspect of shutting down economies. That calculation is easier for a farmer to make and the moral implications are less weighty.

[Mollymews]

2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

There are more than financial reasons indigenous peoples used a form of culling in choosing their kills

is all financial in the sense that the people take the animals for food, clothing and shelter. And yes, as a hunter for food/etc then go for the weaker slower animals. Less risk in getting hurt or killed ourselves

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 minute ago, JanuarySwan said:

I don't know much about the black plaque and how it stopped...some of these things in history seem surreal since we weren't there.  But, maybe they should update the term to "vaccinating the herd" because that is really what will make us immune.  The problem is in America there are times vaccines are not mandatory.   Plus, Covid-19 is vicious in that even if we've had it we don't know how long the antibodies will last.  And even with the first vaccine it's thought it may not be enough which kind of eludes to almost admitting the antibodies don't last all that long.  Our herd may need several vaccines.  From what I've heard pretty much across the board though is it could a couple of years, maybe a little less.   So much is unknown. 

Absolutely, January. (And welcome to the forums!)

Clearly, some politicians who are are constructing public policy don't understand herd immunity and the relative costs of reaching it via infection vs. immunization. Immunology and epidemiology are terribly complex subjects, the lay public can be excused for not grasping all the nuance.

Even if infection doesn't confer permanent immunity, it does remove the infected and recovered individual from any potential role as a spread vector for at least some period of time. That lowers the infection rate for the duration of that immunity and that may be sufficient to keep total infections to a manageable level. This is the case for the flu, where vaccines often miss their intended target as the virus mutates. You may not prevent people from getting ill, but a secondary goal is to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

On 5/9/2020 at 9:47 AM, Luna Bliss said:

But compare them to Americans, or even Brits — people who now wish only the worst for their neighbours, to the point of denying them healthcare and retirement. Is it any wonder, they, too, led the world in worst Coronavirus response?

Luna, she doesn't sound so gentle, wise, nor full of a certain kind of soul?     I don't know anyone in America who wishes the worst for their neighbors nor anything else she said.   She sounds hateful, frankly...and/or has some kind of agenda.  I'm glad she's not in America's government whoever she is.   

Read below:  

 

On 5/9/2020 at 9:47 AM, Luna Bliss said:

It is about a people becoming truly gentle, cooperative, wise, full of a certain kind of soul. Ready to be friends with one another. Remember how the little creatures play at the park? There’s no wish to hurt each other, just to be close, to be good to one another. New Zealand has that feeling — which is the feeling of a true social democracy. Goodness and friendship. How rare these things are in our torn human worlds.

Awfully tired and foggy but I'll try to explain. The article I referenced is by Umair Haque, and he is comparing the differences between countries that have a social democracy (like New Zealand, presently led by Jacinda Ardern) and the system we have in the US. Umair can be too extreme and hyperbolic for my taste at times, but he does have a lot of good points.

I'm not sure what you'd even call the system we have in the US anymore (perhaps neoliberalism, pretending to be a democracy, and heading toward fascism?), but it does not take care of its poor in the way a social democracy does. For example, take health care -- 30,000 people in the US die each year due to lack of affordable health care. In a wealthy system such as ours it is cruel to allow this to happen. In a socially democratic country the poor are not left out -- everybody is covered. We do have some programs for the poor but many don't qualify for assistance.

Anyway, Umair says neighbors are being cruel to each other. Some are cruel, true -- the ones who believe being poor is a moral failing and so deserve no help. Most Americans though are just uninformed and brainwashed to believe something called 'socialism' is out to take over them and ruin their lives and so vote against their interests. And they're unaware of other systems of government in Europe that provide health care, education, paid maternity leave, longer vacations, and more -- provide it to every person, even the poor residents.

The Covid crisis is showing just how pathetic our overly individualistic, 'profit before people' country is. Other wealthy countries are providing a lot more to alleviate the economic disaster Covid has unleashed. The response from the US government is pathetic and I think we're heading for a major depression because of it. It's bizarre - from our current administration the idea of public health is seen as 'socialism'. Other wealthy countries, in addition to providing more economic help to get through the crisis, even had programs already in place to provide assistance due to their public health philosophy that believes government should help in times of crisis.

Anyway, you should ask Molly more about what a social democracy is, as she lives in New Zealand.

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I didn't say Sweden's strategy was correct, just that it was different. I also mispoke a bit. Their decision was not to pen those with low vulnerability (general population) but those with high vulnerability (lock down the nursing facilities). Unaccounted for (probably forever) in all this is the pecuniary aspect of shutting down economies. That calculation is easier for a farmer to make and the moral implications are less weighty.

herd culling is quite a brutal phrase. Herd immunity is a softer phrase. So is not surprising when community leaders tend to soften their language in this way

immunity is a biological event. It can happen, or not happen, despite any input from us, chosen or otherwise

culling is a consequence of decision-making. Decisions include doing nothing resulting in more death coming to the herd than might otherwise be the case

as you say and which I agree with: When it comes to humans (our own species) then the moral dimensions of our decision-making is heightened

also too sometimes when this gets really hard then some community leaders abdicate their political responsibility to lead. Turning over the political leadership to technicians. Like: "These decisions are outside of my field of technical expertise therefore don't expect me to lead the decision-making process." A thing is that community/political leadership is not the technician's field of expertise either

a political leader's job is to take advice from all the technicians and when there is no consensus among the technicians then make a decision. Technical includes the costs of making decisions. The political leader has to because the people elected/entrusted them to do exactly this

some political leaders in some countries abdicated their responsibility to do the job that the people entrusted them to do. To lead the decision-making, and when there is no consensus among the technicians then make the call

[Marigold Devin]

3 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Absolutely, January. (And welcome to the forums!)

Clearly, some politicians who are are constructing public policy don't understand herd immunity and the relative costs of reaching it via infection vs. immunization. Immunology and epidemiology are terribly complex subjects, the lay public can be excused for not grasping all the nuance.

Even if infection doesn't confer permanent immunity, it does remove the infected and recovered individual from any potential role as a spread vector for at least some period of time. That lowers the infection rate for the duration of that immunity and that may be sufficient to keep total infections to a manageable level. This is the case for the flu, where vaccines often miss their intended target as the virus mutates. You may not prevent people from getting ill, but a secondary goal is to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed.

Our prime minister made that his first goal - and most of us in the UK are grateful for that. We clap every Thursday at 8pm to show solidarity in our support for the heroes on the front line, who are, obviously, not just those trained to be front line, such as NHS workers, police, fire, but all those unsung heroes who work in our shops, and everyone involved in keeping those shops supplied, all of whom are somehow having to try and keep social distancing measures up to prevent the spread of the virus.

I really am not intelligent enough to have conversations about scientific findings, and I know you are, Maddie. All I know is I am terrified at times, when I really sit down to think about what is happening in the world. And as cliche as this sounds, we have to prepare for the worst, hope for the best, and trust (or rebel against) our leaders.

I don't agree with the protests. I agree with the social distancing and lock downs (that should be MUCH tougher in our country).  

The talk of sending our tinier kids/grandkids back to school first of all, freeing up parents to go back to job, ensuring the economy doesn't fall to pieces because of this, that frightens me the most. Kids are buggeroos for spreading nits for a start - the virus would spread like billy-o.

Forgive me for not giving you the most intelligent of answers. I am like Joey Tribiani in friends, I do read and try and keep in touch with all, but there is so much information out there, and a lot of it conflicting.

[Marigold Devin]

7 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

 

Narcisstic

Personality

Disorder.

Well put!

If everyone really could see who had got this condition, the world would deal with the narcissists better - thinking people just think narcs are those who like to take selfies all the time, when there is so MUCH else - even narcs don't realise they are narcs. Not just with world leaders either. 

But I veer off topic just slightly here. 

[Ceka Cianci]

I got to go back to work for the first time since forever and a day..

The funny thing was,there was only 12 of us there out of the whole plant..It was like a ghost town..

It's the most peaceful night of work I've ever had there.. hehehehe

[JanuarySwan]

9 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Awfully tired and foggy but I'll try to explain. The article I referenced is by Umair Haque, and he is comparing the differences between countries that have a social democracy (like New Zealand, presently led by Jacinda Ardern) and the system we have in the US. Umair can be too extreme and hyperbolic for my taste at times, but he does have a lot of good points.

I'm not sure what you'd even call the system we have in the US anymore (perhaps neoliberalism, pretending to be a democracy, and heading toward fascism?), but it does not take care of its poor in the way a social democracy does. For example, take health care -- 30,000 people in the US die each year due to lack of affordable health care. In a wealthy system such as ours it is cruel to allow this to happen. In a socially democratic country the poor are not left out -- everybody is covered. We do have some programs for the poor but many don't qualify for assistance.

Anyway, Umair says neighbors are being cruel to each other. Some are cruel, true -- the ones who believe being poor is a moral failing and so deserve no help. Most Americans though are just uninformed and brainwashed to believe something called 'socialism' is out to take over them and ruin their lives and so vote against their interests. And they're unaware of other systems of government in Europe that provide health care, education, paid maternity leave, longer vacations, and more -- provide it to every person, even the poor residents.

The Covid crisis is showing just how pathetic our overly individualistic, 'profit before people' country is. Other wealthy countries are providing a lot more to alleviate the economic disaster Covid has unleashed. The response from the US government is pathetic and I think we're heading for a major depression because of it. It's bizarre - from our current administration the idea of public health is seen as 'socialism'. Other wealthy countries, in addition to providing more economic help to get through the crisis, even had programs already in place to provide assistance due to their public health philosophy that believes government should help in times of crisis.

Anyway, you should ask Molly more about what a social democracy is, as she lives in New Zealand.

There is just so much going on right now Luna, I don't think I want to get into this now.  But, New Zealand is not a country of over 300 million people.  New Zealand is less population than the largest counties of California...just one county.  So He'd be like a mayor here in America.    

As far as some of "the poor" being over-looked that is not a true statement.  There are many programs for the poor here.  The homeless and those who are the drug-addict homeless are the biggest challenges as many don't want help; they want their drugs/booze.  We have a huge drug problem in some states in America that needs to be addressed.  As far as health care, paid maternity leave, longer vacations - those are up to most businesses.  Many perks have been taken away from Americans because of businesses who are exporting and importing cheaper labor who do without those perks - those don't have anything to do with the government.  

I don't believe socialism is going to happen any time soon.  I think Biden is going to win.  So, this is what the next four years will be.  Time to see how we can improve programs within this structure.  

[Modulated]

8 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

.... I think Biden is going to win.....

Yes that's just what the US needs now, a president who truly has dementia and cognitive decline and can't slap his butt with both hands.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Modulated

[JanuarySwan]

9 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Absolutely, January. (And welcome to the forums!)

Clearly, some politicians who are are constructing public policy don't understand herd immunity and the relative costs of reaching it via infection vs. immunization. Immunology and epidemiology are terribly complex subjects, the lay public can be excused for not grasping all the nuance.

Even if infection doesn't confer permanent immunity, it does remove the infected and recovered individual from any potential role as a spread vector for at least some period of time. That lowers the infection rate for the duration of that immunity and that may be sufficient to keep total infections to a manageable level. This is the case for the flu, where vaccines often miss their intended target as the virus mutates. You may not prevent people from getting ill, but a secondary goal is to prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed.

Thank you!  

The problem of going the "nature's way" route or trying to achieve natural herd immunity via developing antibodies naturally alone, many plagues - you mentioned the black plague - 50 million people died/60% of Europe.  Other plagues had terrible outcomes too prior to vaccines.  This is nature's way.  Thank God we have the ability to create vaccines now.  If social distancing and shelter in place did not happen, I don't know how many would have died.  The health care system could not have handled it.  The PPE needs to be readied and appropriately funded though as there may be a second "wave".  

[JanuarySwan]

3 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Yes that's just what the US needs now, a president who truly has dementia and cognitive decline and can't slap his butt with both hands.

Well, however, we view them...Biden is leading in preliminary "poles".  Poles are not votes.  

But, we need to understand...it's not just Trump and it's not just Biden, there is a whole team working together, many of whom are not seen.

President Trump has Larry Kudlow as Director of the U.S. Economic Council...I hope Biden can get him too!  Kudlow is a brilliant man!  

[Orwar]

3 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Poles are not votes.

   Who needs votes when you have winged hussars?! 

   Oh, you meant polls. My bad! 

[Lyssa Greymoon]

23 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Yes that's just what the US needs now, a president who truly has dementia and cognitive decline and can't slap his butt with both hands.

That's worked out well for the past three years.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

33 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Yes that's just what the US needs now, a president who truly has dementia and cognitive decline and can't slap his butt with both hands.

She was talking about Biden, not Trump. 

[Ceka Cianci]

I'm not happy with any of the options we have...Again.

I wonder if that gorilla will run again..I may just vote for him..hehehe

[Modulated]

26 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

That's worked out well for the past three years.

 

16 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

She was talking about Biden, not Trump. 

Lets all just be snarky and pretend there's not actually something wrong with Biden's cognitive abilities. The man suffered a massive aneurysm. and that does lead to cognitive decline. Just witness any of his interviews of late , and it's so obvious something is wrong. But please, continue the snark fest about Trump, by all means .  🙄

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 minute ago, Modulated said:

 

Lets all just be snarky and pretend there's not actually something wrong with Biden's cognitive abilities. The man suffered a massive aneurysm. and that does lead to cognitive decline. Just witness any of his interviews of late , and it's so obvious something is wrong. But please, continue the snark fest about Trump, by all means .  🙄

Whatever, troll. I won't give credence to this nonsense from someone who's been posting here for ages, and I sure as hell won't listen to it from an obvious alt.

No respect for those who start new accounts to say "controversial" stuff.

*plonk*

[Modulated]

Just now, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Whatever, troll. I won't give credence to this nonsense from someone who's been posting here for ages, and I sure as hell won't listen to it from an obvious alt.

No respect for those who start new accounts to say "controversial" stuff.

*plonk*

Good for you. But again, you didn't say I was wrong. That is not trolling, that is me defeating you.  You're defeated, not trolled.

[Amina Sopwith]

Just now, Modulated said:

But please, continue the snark fest about Trump, by all means .  

Yes, please do. 

 

[JanuarySwan]

9 minutes ago, Modulated said:

 

Lets all just be snarky and pretend there's not actually something wrong with Biden's cognitive abilities. The man suffered a massive aneurysm. and that does lead to cognitive decline. Just witness any of his interviews of late , and it's so obvious something is wrong. But please, continue the snark fest about Trump, by all means .  🙄

As far as I understand it, an aneurysm is not the same as a stroke.  A stroke cuts off the oxygen/blood supply to the brain and causes cognitive disorders.  An aneurysm is like a blood clot, oxygen/blood supply is diminished but not cut off as with a stroke.  So, no, aneurysm do not always lead to cognitive disorders.  But, yet, you also overlook very important facts that both candidates work within a team; a team of advisers; a team called an administration.   Biden will not be alone.  However, maybe I should have said "I think" Biden will win.  Poles are considered a leading indicator.  

Edited May 18, 2020 by JanuarySwan

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, JanuarySwan said:

But, New Zealand is not a country of over 300 million people.  New Zealand is less population than the largest counties of California...just one county.  So He'd be like a mayor here in America.    

As far as some of "the poor" being over-looked that is not a true statement.  There are many programs for the poor here.  The homeless and those who are the drug-addict homeless are the biggest challenges as many don't want help; they want their drugs/booze.  We have a huge drug problem in some states in America that needs to be addressed. 

I have a background in Social Work where the main thrust is evaluating the programs and cultural conditions that help or hinder the plight of the disadvantaged in society, and while not working in that area anymore I have contact with those who do, and I can tell you with certainty that we do not allocate adequate funding for those in need. After funding was cut I've personally seen the at-risk kids yanked out of pre-schools designed to help them have a better start in life. I've seen families yanked out of therapy too due to budget cuts when Republicans came into power. I've seen the vet with the frosty beard, lying on the street homeless -- someone who WANTED a place to live, even a shelter, and there was none available. I've seen more.

Thousands of families are food insecure -- this was made more visible when schools had to close during the Covid crises and it became known that these school meals were the only ones they had.
Thousands of kids in the US went to to bed hungry every night even before the Covid crises. SNAP food programs are woefully inadequate, not providing nearly enough to meet nutritional needs, and only the poorest of the poor even qualify for them.

You really need to study the difference between social democracies and what they provide their people vs what we do here in the US (in Europe -- New Zealand and its population is really irrelevant to the discussion, only mentioned because NZ was in the article I referenced).

For your only statement about the poor and programs to help them be about BLAMING them, well I won't comment as I don't want to get a forum suspension.

[Lyssa Greymoon]

6 minutes ago, Modulated said:

The man suffered a massive aneurysm.

Thirty years ago. I don't think that's an issue, but if it is maybe he could take some bleach or something.

[Modulated]

Just now, JanuarySwan said:

As far as I understand it, an aneurysm is not the same as a stroke.  A stroke cuts off the oxygen/blood supply to the brain and causes cognitive disorders.  An aneurysm is like a blood clod, oxygen/blood supply is diminished but not cut off as with a stroke.  So, no, aneurysm do not always lead to cognitive disorders.

Please watch any of Biden's last 5 or 6 interviews then get back to me . Thanks.