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Seicher Rae

Do you need to vent about things COVID-19?

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Wasn't part of Tesla's settlement with the SEC that Elon Musk had to turn his Twitter account over to an adult?

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If we've learn't nothing else these last few years, it's that literally anyone can catastrophically misuse a Twitter account.

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The only "venting" about this post is... where the eff was this article at the BEGINNING of all of this?

This article arrived in my email today and... SAVE YOUR LOCAL CRAFT BREWERY AND GET BEER DELIVERED TO YOUR DOOR!

That's an intro article. Inside it is another link to a much more inclusive source, searchable by STATE.

 

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On 5/2/2020 at 10:33 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is what amazes me about the far right conspiracy theories surrounding the pandemic.

Like, almost 150,000 people have died in Europe alone, in order to make Trump "look bad"? Or, are the quarter of a million deaths around the globe from this "fake news," and everyone, ranging from Boris Johnson to healthcare workers in Malaysia are "in on it"?

The inability of people to acknowledge the existence of an entire world of people beyond the narrow confines of their own borders sometimes astonishes me.

 

Narcisstic

Personality

Disorder.

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On 5/2/2020 at 5:13 PM, Saucey Sinister said:

Let me say this a little more clear because this may have been missed in my giant post. I do think we need to rely on our federal government. But, my gripe is that people are just pointing fingers and blaming. My rambling was set up by the idea that people think the federal government is supposed to supply us with everything we need for any relief, when it's our state's responsibility and in order to get aid from the federal government they have to file to declare the state of emergency with the feds. That's where increase funding happens. That's the way it's supposed to work, that we need help so the feds send us help. I feel like all I was hearing was people want Trump to do nothing because they don't like him nor his innovative way of thinking. It is uncomfortable for them to have a conversation if they don't like the person. I am all in on the idea that the money we put in should be coming back to us. I do not like centralized power and that's where my real gripe is. I think it can be a very scary thing if we have a society that never learns these things and then accepts it in our future. I am more over Trump bashing than I am hearing about covid-19 and staying home. I am totally over hearing people pointing fingers and blaming, no matter who it is. Often, it's coming from the people who don't have much to be complaining about in the first place. If there was a strong political statement that I want to make it would be that we need to hold our local elected officials responsible for everything they are doing to affect our daily lives. Many people can't even name their state senators or their local representatives. I would like to see that change. A friend of mine the other day said, " I didn't realize we had a state congress." When you write emails and make phone calls, it does something. When people point fingers on the internet it's not only pointless, but it's the very bullying atmosphere most are against. With that said, I am done on the forums now and won't see anymore alerts. Thank you for listening. That's what I thought this thread was for or I would have never posted.

Yeah...no.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/8/2020 at 12:02 AM, CoffeeDujour said:

I'm not hopeful that we will get an effective 'one-shot' vaccine that just makes this go away.

The virus has managed to get way too far to be put back in the box and subtle mutations could easily make any vaccine less than 100% effective, which just means any virus left will continue to spread and mutate further.

Likewise 'Herd Immunity' will simply not work as that strategy requires both a monoculture AND a targeted vaccine. Of course we can achieve this kind of immunity with a virus installed in a population large enough to enable ongoing mutation, no vaccine and everyone back in work .. but the herd will end up a lot smaller.

 

 

 

I don't know.  I think it's far too early to make a call about a vaccine or herd immunity.  It may take a few years to develop herd immunity.  May of 2020 is a far piece off from a few years.   None of us has a crystal ball.   America may have an experimental vaccine at the end of this year for 300 million people.  Whether an experimental vaccine available in America happens or not at the end of 2020...I'd need a crystal ball for that.  It's too much to speculate on.  

As far as human DNA we are all 99% alike; the other 1% of us is mostly our genetic make-up and determines how we look for example as well as other hereditary traits.  But with our DNA being 99% alike, I think UCLA has some brilliant minds at work.  I think herd immunity will happen as our monoculture may very well exist in our DNA...we are almost all exactly alike - 99% of us is.  I think we could be entering a biotech boom of historic proportions with greater understanding than we've ever had before.  But, get that G------d*m PPE stocked in the mean time!  (adding - the last part is my vent.)  

If I may ask, are you from Britain?  And, where did you get this idea that herd immunity will not work?  Another poster earlier also said this.  This is frankly not true that herd immunity will not work.   It's been working since the 1930's.  

From John Hopkins:

How have we achieved herd immunity for other infectious diseases?

Measles, mumps, polio, and chickenpox are examples of infectious diseases that were once very common but are now rare in the U.S. because vaccines helped to establish herd immunity. We sometimes see outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases in communities with lower vaccine coverage because they don’t have herd protection. (The 2019 measles outbreak at Disneyland is an example.)

For infections without a vaccine, even if many adults have developed immunity because of prior infection, the disease can still circulate among children and can still infect those with weakened immune systems. This was seen for many of the aforementioned diseases before vaccines were developed.

Other viruses (like the flu) mutate over time, so antibodies from a previous infection provide protection for only a short period of time. For the flu, this is less than a year. If SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, is like other coronaviruses that currently infect humans, we can expect that people who get infected will be immune for months to years, but probably not their entire lives.

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/achieving-herd-immunity-with-covid19.html

 

Edited by JanuarySwan

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2020 at 7:47 AM, Luna Bliss said:

But compare them to Americans, or even Brits — people who now wish only the worst for their neighbours, to the point of denying them healthcare and retirement. Is it any wonder, they, too, led the world in worst Coronavirus response?

Luna, she doesn't sound so gentle, wise, nor full of a certain kind of soul?   :/  I don't know anyone in America who wishes the worst for their neighbors nor anything else she said.   She sounds hateful, frankly...and/or has some kind of agenda.  I'm glad she's not in America's government whoever she is.   

Read below:  

 

On 5/9/2020 at 7:47 AM, Luna Bliss said:

It is about a people becoming truly gentle, cooperative, wise, full of a certain kind of soul. Ready to be friends with one another. Remember how the little creatures play at the park? There’s no wish to hurt each other, just to be close, to be good to one another. New Zealand has that feeling — which is the feeling of a true social democracy. Goodness and friendship. How rare these things are in our torn human worlds.

 

Edited by JanuarySwan

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:
On 5/2/2020 at 12:33 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is what amazes me about the far right conspiracy theories surrounding the pandemic.

Like, almost 150,000 people have died in Europe alone, in order to make Trump "look bad"? Or, are the quarter of a million deaths around the globe from this "fake news," and everyone, ranging from Boris Johnson to healthcare workers in Malaysia are "in on it"?

The inability of people to acknowledge the existence of an entire world of people beyond the narrow confines of their own borders sometimes astonishes me.

 

Narcisstic

Personality

Disorder.

That explains Trump, but not his supporters.

I've an elderly neighbor who bites into almost any conspiracy theory you put on his plate. I thought I was making progress when I helped him reason his way, using his own personal knowledge, through the "John McCain killed 134 sailors on the Forestal" coverup theory from awhile back. He seemed pleased with his ability to eventually detect the lie using his own direct personal knowledge of the kinds of jets involved in the accident. Since then, he's found websites that seem to explain that the knowledge he obtained during his years in the Navy, much of it hands-on, was also false, and part of an even greater and older conspiracy to rob him of the ability to see the truth. He's having none of it, he once again knows that John McCain killed 134 sailors.

I detect no signs of dementia, though he is quite old. I think it's simply a matter of living in a comfort bubble of his own design, a bubble that never challenges his beliefs and assures him that he, like so many average people who share his view, is a genius.

Right next door lives a couple who'll argue as forcefully, and with as little evidence, the need for the US to become a socialist, or even communist, nation.

 

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2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That explains Trump, but not his supporters.

We're seeing a new religion being born.

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having grown up on a farm, I tend to view herd immunity as herd culling

the sick, weak and deformed animals get culled. The healthy, strong and well-formed animals get to live, because they provide an economic benefit to the farmer

culling herds is a choice. We can either allow the weak to die (kill them by our own choices), or we can nurture them back to health.  On the farm, culling is purely an economic decision made to further the pecuniary interests of the farmers

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

having grown up on a farm, I tend to view herd immunity as herd culling

the sick, weak and deformed animals get culled. The healthy, strong and well-formed animals get to live, because they provide an economic benefit to the farmer

I think that would be the opposite of herd immunity.  Herd culling is what would happen if there were no vaccine, I'd think?  Herd immunity is about vaccines and has been around in America since the 1930's, so it isn't anything new here...just maybe the first time some of us are talking about it/hearing about it.   So, "vaccinating the herd" would probably be a better term.   Without a vaccine though, it would be like herd culling, and that is where we stand today.  

Edited by JanuarySwan

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7 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

I think that would be the opposite of herd immunity.  Herd culling is what would happen if there were no vaccine, I'd think?

yes, but in this covid case there is no vaccine. Without penning the sick animals separately from the rest of the herd then we end up culling the herd thru infection in greater numbers than is necessary

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

yes, but in this covid case there is no vaccine. Without penning the sick animals separately from the rest of the herd then we end up culling the herd thru infection in greater numbers than is necessary

Yes, I wrote more in my post and we must have posted at the same time.  The vaccine isn't here yet that is why herd immunity could take a few years, maybe a little less...it's impossible to know.  Where we stand today, without a vaccine, it is like herd culling now.  Herd immunity means vaccines not nature and perhaps a better term would be "vaccinating the herd"...but, we both know, there isn't one yet.

Edited by JanuarySwan
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4 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

yes, but in this covid case there is no vaccine. Without penning the sick animals separately from the rest of the herd then we end up culling the herd thru infection in greater numbers than is necessary

Alternatively, can can (and have been in some places like Sweden) penn the most vulnerable animals and let the strongest weather what we expect will be a survivable illness.

17 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Herd immunity is about vaccines and has been around in America since the 1930's, so it isn't anything new here...just maybe the first time some of us are talking about it/hearing about it.   So, "vaccinating the herd" would probably be a better term.   Without a vaccine though, it would be like herd culling, and that is where we stand today.  

There is no generic herd immunity. My mother contracted a mild case of polio in the 1930s and suffered barely noticeable weakness as a result. Herd immunity to polio would not arrive until widespread administration of Jonas Salk's vaccine in the 1950s, continuing through to today. Herd immunity was in the news a few years ago when measles popped up in the Pacific northwest. Anti-vaxxers were blamed for compromising herd immunity via the introduction of injectable and therefore potentially infectious offspring into the otherwise protected population, endangering those who, for various reasons, could not receive the measles vaccine.

The only ways to achieve herd immunity are (I think?) via infection or vaccination. The cull ratios for each method are vastly different.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The only ways to achieve herd immunity are (I think?) via infection or vaccination.

Not from what I understand.  Herd immunity means vaccines only, targeted vaccines that make us immune, even if we need more than one injection for several years.  Infection and it's antibodies may make us immune for a little while but if we went mingling all about, it would be like herd culling because we have no sustained immunity known yet plus we can spread the virus before we even have symptoms.  That is why herd immunity takes years but it's only through vaccines that we can achieve it (immunity) as the term herd immunity goes....which maybe should be called "vaccinating the herd" for a better term.   Anyhow, this is the thought for this virus...it's considered vicious...we don't even know how long we can be immune yet even if we had it.

Edited by JanuarySwan

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6 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Alternatively, can can (and have been in some places like Sweden) penn the most vulnerable animals and let the strongest weather what we expect will be a survivable illness.

i think we might be saying the same thing. Is just how many pens do we have on our farm

in the human case we have lots of pens (households) and so can also separate those we might expect to survive from each other, so to reduce the total number of infections in the herd

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Just now, Mollymews said:

i think we might be saying the same thing. Is just how many pens do we have on our farm

in the human case we have lots of pens (households) and so can also separate those we might expect to survive from each other, so to reduce the total number of infections in the herd

Sweden decided not to pen healthy people in their homes, but rather to penn the vulnerable elderly in their care facilities. The strategic goal is different. When you pen the sick, you are avoiding herd immunity. When you pen the vulnerable, you are depending on it.

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8 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

i think we might be saying the same thing. Is just how many pens do we have on our farm

in the human case we have lots of pens (households) and so can also separate those we might expect to survive from each other, so to reduce the total number of infections in the herd

This has been talked about in America.  That is why everyone is currently being tested now even if there are no symptoms in the thought that those who test negative can go back to work perhaps.  We don't have any antibody tests yet that I know of.  However, children in America are developing an inflammatory disease from Covid-19 that is a bit scary.  

I'm logging off now but you may be able to find the above about the inflammatory disease in children from Covid-19 on the internet.  If not, I'll look tomorrow for a link.

This disease is just out of control.  I wish I had better news than to tell you about this inflammatory disease situation after all we've all been through.  

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12 minutes ago, JanuarySwan said:

Not from what I understand.  Herd immunity means vaccines only, targeted vaccines that make us immune, even if we need more than one injection for several years.  Infection and it's antibodies may make us immune for a little while but if we went mingling all about, it would be like herd culling because we have no sustained immunity known yet plus we can spread the virus before we even have symptoms.  That is why herd immunity takes years but it's only through vaccines that we can achieve it (immunity) as the term herd immunity goes....which maybe should be called "vaccinating the herd" for a better term.  

The concept of herd immunity vastly predates the invention of vaccines. Herd immunity was one factor in the eventual decline of the black plague in the 1300s. Vaccines are the preferred method to achieve herd immunity because they prevent the spread of the disease while avoiding the symptoms of it, one of which may be death (cull).

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

That explains Trump, but not his supporters.

I've an elderly neighbor who bites into almost any conspiracy theory you put on his plate. I thought I was making progress when I helped him reason his way, using his own personal knowledge, through the "John McCain killed 134 sailors on the Forestal" coverup theory from awhile back. He seemed pleased with his ability to eventually detect the lie using his own direct personal knowledge of the kinds of jets involved in the accident. Since then, he's found websites that seem to explain that the knowledge he obtained during his years in the Navy, much of it hands-on, was also false, and part of an even greater and older conspiracy to rob him of the ability to see the truth. He's having none of it, he once again knows that John McCain killed 134 sailors.

I detect no signs of dementia, though he is quite old. I think it's simply a matter of living in a comfort bubble of his own design, a bubble that never challenges his beliefs and assures him that he, like so many average people who share his view, is a genius.

Right next door lives a couple who'll argue as forcefully, and with as little evidence, the need for the US to become a socialist, or even communist, nation.

 

 

Humans.

Can't live with them.

Can't live without them.

Keep on truckin.

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8 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Sweden decided not to pen healthy people in their homes, but rather to penn the vulnerable elderly in their care facilities. The strategic goal is different. When you pen the sick, you are avoiding herd immunity. When you pen the vulnerable, you are depending on it.

i interpret what Sweden did a bit differently.  Sweden penned separately  only those animals they found to be sick, taking them from the one big pen as they were discovered. Other farmers divided up their one big pen into lots of separate pens (because they had the pens to do so), reducing the spread of infection between the animals

like you say this was a strategic decision. The farmers (next door to Sweden) to date have lost less animals than has the Swedish farmer

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3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The concept of herd immunity vastly predates the invention of vaccines. Herd immunity was one factor in the eventual decline of the black plague in the 1300s. Vaccines are the preferred method to achieve herd immunity because they prevent the spread of the disease while avoiding the symptoms of it, one of which may be death (cull).

 

Bingo.

There are more than financial reasons indigenous peoples used a form of culling in choosing their kills. Think of a pack of wolves bringing down what appears to be a healthy adult, young buck. Betcha dimes to donuts that buck isn't healthy.

People could learn a lot just by watching what goes on around them. I don't mean humans either.

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