Do you need to vent about things COVID-19?

[Arielle Popstar]

11 minutes ago, MoiraKathleen said:

It sounds to me very plausible that the cases were from the increased post-Thanksgiving case count in the outside community, probably being brought into the facility unwittingly by employees.  

That may very well be the case but after that many deaths and the timing I would think it warrants an in depth investigation.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

That may very well be the case but after that many deaths and the timing I would think it warrants an in depth investigation.

You scare me.

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, RowanMinx said:

You scare me.

What scares me is people so desperate for something to work that they will blind themselves to any clues that there might be a problem. 

[MoiraKathleen]

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

What scares me is people so desperate for something to work that they will blind themselves to any clues that there might be a problem. 

If I remember correctly, you're in Canada and in an area that doesn't have a large case count? 

In many parts of the U.S., even before vaccines started to be available, deaths from nursing homes and skilled nursing facilities have often been high compared to the percentage of deaths in the surrounding area.  The post-U.S. Thanksgiving surge came on top of an earlier surge which had not totally subsided, and we are just now seeing the results of the Christmas surge (typically hospitalizations and deaths lag by several weeks).  With so many increased counts prior to the vaccines starting to be given, it would be hard to isolate an increase now as only being caused by the vaccine.  Of course there is always a risk with medications and with vaccines, but I haven't seen anything credible tracked to vaccines that is large enough to cause me any concerns.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, MoiraKathleen said:

If I remember correctly, you're in Canada and in an area that doesn't have a large case count? 

In many parts of the U.S., even before vaccines started to be available, deaths from nursing homes and skilled nursing facilities have often been high compared to the percentage of deaths in the surrounding area.  The post-U.S. Thanksgiving surge came on top of an earlier surge which had not totally subsided, and we are just now seeing the results of the Christmas surge (typically hospitalizations and deaths lag by several weeks).  With so many increased counts prior to the vaccines starting to be given, it would be hard to isolate an increase now as only being caused by the vaccine.  Of course there is always a risk with medications and with vaccines, but I haven't seen anything credible tracked to vaccines that is large enough to cause me any concerns.

My area also has the problem where the covid19 death count is around 75-80% in nursing and retirement facilities. Most of them have been in strict lockdown mode for months now and yet the outbreaks keep happening in them without being able to determine the exact cause of that. It is somewhat reminiscent of the Legionnaires disease in the 70's where it took a long time to isolate first the disease and then the mode of transmission which was discovered to be the air conditioning.

I remember reading an article last month about who to vaccinate first and there was some question of whether the senior citizens should be first being that their immune systems were less likely able to withstand any potential issues of the vaccines. So here is a case of them being vaccinated and yet dying from Covid19 anyway. We don't know if the ones who caught it were those who had already been vaccinated. If so, then that points to a problem in itself.  Correlation doesn't imply causation but it does not mean there isn't one.

Mostly my point was that just because a site questions the timing of the vaccinations and the outbreak, should not put the story automatically in the conspiracy theory bin. The science should be questioned which was exactly what the author of the original article did.

"Is the timing just a strange coincidence?"

 

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Arielle Popstar
grammar

[Arielle Popstar]

Nothing to see here. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Arielle Popstar

[Dafadilia Wayfarer]

Wednesday I have to go in for an X-Ray determining if I've broken any bones or not because of a stupid fall that isn't healing over a month after the fact. I'm terrified at the idea of having to go to a medical facility while our area is still on lockdown locally. It seems I've developed a bit worse social anxiety than I had before this pandemic. I understand that this is needed, but just wish it wasn't. Sorry for the rant, but I've just been really frustrated as of late.

[Rowan Amore]

3 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

My area also has the problem where the covid19 death count is around 75-80% in nursing and retirement facilities. Most of them have been in strict lockdown mode for months now and yet the outbreaks keep happening in them without being able to determine the exact cause of that. It is somewhat reminiscent of the Legionnaires disease in the 70's where it took a long time to isolate first the disease and then the mode of transmission which was discovered to be the air conditioning.

I remember reading an article last month about who to vaccinate first and there was some question of whether the senior citizens should be first being that their immune systems were less likely able to withstand any potential issues of the vaccines. So here is a case of them being vaccinated and yet dying from Covid19 anyway. We don't know if the ones who caught it were those who had already been vaccinated. If so, then that points to a problem in itself.  Correlation doesn't imply causation but it does not mean there isn't one.

Mostly my point was that just because a site questions the timing of the vaccinations and the outbreak, should not put the story automatically in the conspiracy theory bin. The science should be questioned which was exactly what the author of the original article did.

"Is the timing just a strange coincidence?"

 

During the outbreak Commons employees are wearing gowns, gloves and face shields at all times when working with residents, Sheedy said.

But not before?

The Commons gets a one-star rating, the lowest, from the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid. The one-star rating means the nursing home is considered much below average based on health inspections, staffing and quality of care.

That seems to be what's at issue.

The three other nursing homes in Cayuga have not reported any Covid-19 deaths.

It does seem that the article is questioning the facility and not the vaccine.

Less than 1/2 the staff had been vaccinated.  They and their poor practices are more likely the cause than the vaccine.  Simple logic.

 

[Rat Luv]

3 hours ago, Dafadilia Wayfarer said:

Wednesday I have to go in for an X-Ray determining if I've broken any bones or not because of a stupid fall that isn't healing over a month after the fact. I'm terrified at the idea of having to go to a medical facility while our area is still on lockdown locally. It seems I've developed a bit worse social anxiety than I had before this pandemic. I understand that this is needed, but just wish it wasn't. Sorry for the rant, but I've just been really frustrated as of late.

Sending you lucky charms☘️ ❤️

I am also on edge every time I go out. Went to the supermarket first thing this morning, they now have rails up at the entrance and somebody checking that everyone has a mask on. I thought, why couldn't you have done this last March?

 

[iceing Braveheart]

2 hours ago, Rat Luv said:

Sending you lucky charms☘️ ❤️

I am also on edge every time I go out. Went to the supermarket first thing this morning, they now have rails up at the entrance and somebody checking that everyone has a mask on. I thought, why couldn't you have done this last March?

 

UK Government May Only Let People Out Once A Week | ZeroHedge

[Qie Niangao]

10 hours ago, MoiraKathleen said:

However, the Syracuse article says "The outbreak at The Commons on St. Anthony in Auburn started Dec. 21 as a wave of post-Thanksgiving Covid-19 cases began hitting the county, said Julie Sheedy, an official of Loretto which operates the 300-bed nursing home." and does not say anything about the outbreak being caused by the vaccines. 

It also says:

Quote

The nursing home began vaccinating residents Dec. 22. So far 193 residents, or 80%, and 113 employees, or less than half the staff, have been vaccinated. The nursing home plans to do more vaccinations Jan. 12.

[Emphases mine.] So they began vaccinating after the outbreak started. Huh? There is absolutely zero possibility that the vaccine could protect anybody (not even the partial immunity conferred a couple weeks after the first shot) by the time the outbreak was spreading. I don't understand how even the most rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth antivaxxer could find a reason to cite this tragic situation.

(Now that I think about it, it does seem reasonable that the second shot might be particularly important for establishing immunity specifically in elderly patients. Seniors often get special high-dose flu shots, for example.) 

On a local note: The numbers here in Ontario are terrifying now, with the healthcare system projected to collapse under the load province-wide; the models only differ on how soon it happens, depending on how fast the more virulent UK variant predominates. And the little bubble of relatively good performance here in Ottawa has completely reversed because our idiot premier told everybody in advance of stricter measures to come in force the day after Christmas, causing the predictable burst of travel in anticipation of those measures. They watched it happening in the cell phone location-tracking data.

[Qie Niangao]

But what I really intended to post about was this:

Two House Democrats blame Covid diagnosis on lawmakers who didn't wear masks while sheltering.

Seems to me there are a half-dozen Republicans who shouldn't be seated until at least two weeks after all House members, staff, security, and janitors have gotten their second dose of vaccine.

It also demonstrates that non-N95 masks, although effective when worn by the infected, are relatively ineffective as a protection for those exposed to the infected not wearing masks, indoors, for hours.

Mask up because you never know when you could be a vector of asymptomatic spread, even though you'll need to take other measures to protect yourself from unmasked spreaders (e.g., avoid them like the plague they are).

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

A 9 year-old boy who is the brother of my son's class friend, is now hospitalized with Multi System Inflammatory syndrome. The poor guy probably caught COVID just before the schools closed, half-way though December.

[Luna Bliss]

9 hours ago, Dafadilia Wayfarer said:

Wednesday I have to go in for an X-Ray determining if I've broken any bones or not because of a stupid fall that isn't healing over a month after the fact. I'm terrified at the idea of having to go to a medical facility while our area is still on lockdown locally. It seems I've developed a bit worse social anxiety than I had before this pandemic. I understand that this is needed, but just wish it wasn't. Sorry for the rant, but I've just been really frustrated as of late.

It's a big risk isn't it, and difficult to weigh if it's worse to let thing slide or risk getting Covid.  I hope everything turns out okay.

I'm in the same boat with some health issues -- terrified to go to medical facilities. I'm going to wait till I get the vaccine but I may be making a mistake.

[Luna Bliss]

14 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

16 hours ago, RowanMinx said:

https://moneyinc.com/zero-hedge/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-02-01/zero-hedge-permanently-suspended-from-twitter-for-harassment

ALWAYS consider the source.

It is based on a story from a different source though as per the provided link in the story:

https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2021/01/covid-19-outbreak-at-auburn-nursing-home-infects-137-residents-kills-24.html

This illustrates the problem I continue to see. There's a reputable article but then right-wing websites extrapolate ridiculous and unproven theories from that website and spread it all over the internet.

[LittleMe Jewell]

From just a glance at some headlines this morning, I'm likely heading into a major depression.  No herd immunity means the flare-ups will continue and thus the mask-wearing and various restrictions will likely continue through this entire year.  The vaccine lasting only a year means that the mask wearing and various restrictions may never go away.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Arielle Popstar]

35 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This illustrates the problem I continue to see. There's a reputable article but then right-wing websites extrapolate ridiculous and unproven theories from that website and spread it all over the internet.

I think the more correct word would be a hypotheses. It is the left wing websites that call something a theory even when it is yet unproven but they are hopeful it will be.

[Qie Niangao]

I don't see anything especially depressing about those headlines. The Moderna statement was "at least a year" and that's as much as reasonably could be guessed about it at this point, with the potential to last very much longer. Personally, I won't be among the first to get the vaccine, so I figure I'll have plenty of time for the actual duration of efficacy to be determined before I need to schedule a booster shot.

The WHO news about herd immunity is just restating what has become increasingly obvious as the vaccination roll-out has been such a dismal failure in North America and most of Europe. I guess that fact is depressing, but we've already had weeks now to appreciate how pathetic our public health systems have become after years of under-funding.

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

46 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This illustrates the problem I continue to see. There's a reputable article but then right-wing websites extrapolate ridiculous and unproven theories from that website and spread it all over the internet.

I think the more correct word would be a hypotheses. It is the left wing websites that call something a theory even when it is yet unproven but they are hopeful it will be.

As I've said before, I don't rely on random websites for my information. I look at Scientific studies and books/articles by scholars who have spent years studying various issues.  Unfortunately, with Covid being fairly new we don't have a lot of data at this point, but I would never rely on what some internet person without any credentials whatsoever deduced from an article or study (whether you want to call it an theory or hypothesis makes no difference).

Edited January 12, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Rat Luv]

Also @Qie Niangao @LittleMe Jewell that is just one of three vaccines, is that right (I think)? And there will be new ones too. 

[Arielle Popstar]

19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As I've said before, I don't rely on random websites for my information. I look at Scientific studies and books/articles by scholars who have spent years studying various issues.  Unfortunately, with Covid being fairly new we don't have a lot of data at this point, but I would never rely on what some internet person without any credentials whatsoever deduced from an article or study (whether you want to call it an theory or hypothesis makes no difference).

That is fine, you do what works for you and I will do what works for me. I would just point out though that in most of your rebuttals to me you have used a political argument rather than a scientific one. Since as you say there isn't enough data to make any conclusions, the authors questioning whether the timing was coincidental (and note it was a question) is just as relevant as any other hypotheses for or against. You however are again using a political argument based on the politics of the site.

[Qie Niangao]

10 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

Also @Qie Niangao @LittleMe Jewell that is just one of three vaccines, is that right (I think)? And there will be new ones too. 

Guess it depends how you count. AFAIK, the US and Canada have only approved (for emergency use) Pfizer/Biontech and Moderna vaccines so far, but Johnson&Johnson has one that should be emerging from trials Real Soon Now, and there's the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccine in the UK and elsewhere, plus Russia's "Sputnik" and China's (only 60% effective) Sinovac, and surely others. One might guess the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) might have similar durations of effectiveness, and I've seen some speculation that J&J's adenovirus-based vaccine might last longer, but it seems very early to know anything definitive for any of them yet.

[Luna Bliss]

21 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

54 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

As I've said before, I don't rely on random websites for my information. I look at Scientific studies and books/articles by scholars who have spent years studying various issues.  Unfortunately, with Covid being fairly new we don't have a lot of data at this point, but I would never rely on what some internet person without any credentials whatsoever deduced from an article or study (whether you want to call it an theory or hypothesis makes no difference).

That is fine, you do what works for you and I will do what works for me. I would just point out though that in most of your rebuttals to me you have used a political argument rather than a scientific one. Since as you say there isn't enough data to make any conclusions, the authors questioning whether the timing was coincidental (and note it was a question) is just as relevant as any other hypotheses for or against. You however are again using a political argument based on the politics of the site.

So you are thinking because I call your sources of info "right-wing rags" that I am making a political argument? Actually, I'm not -- if it happened to be "left-wing rags" forming theories without evidence or without being based on some sort of Science I'd be criticizing them just as much. I am criticizing whatever party or group does not generally believe in Science or know how to interpret it skillfully -- and we both know which party that is.

Don't take my statement about not having enough data in some cases to prove your point. There is data regarding what vaccines can or can't do, and although the Covid vaccine is new we can make more valid assumptions than the ones some right-wingers are making now (for example, that the Coronavirus vaccine can actually give us Covid).  

Conspiracy theorists have an agenda -- to distrust Science or anything they're incapable of understanding, and to find evidence that the government is taking over their life. You can't evaluate these matters without keeping in mind that this agenda influences their conclusions to a great degree.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Luna Bliss

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Conspiracy theorists have an agenda -- to distrust Science or anything they're incapable of understanding, and to find evidence that the government is taking over their life. You can't evaluate these matters without keeping in mind that this agenda influences their conclusions to a great degree.

Interesting from the perspective that aside from you, most other Left wing people I've seen posting about the vaccine have mentioned that they are content to wait till there is enough other guinea pigs err people to try it first before they do. Noone else is that trusting of the science as it relates to a rushed to market vaccine. Your assumption that it is only right wingers that distrust the science doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny.

[Lyssa Greymoon]

Oh please, I want to hear the super good science behind the implication that the coronavirus vaccine caused coronavirus deaths in a nursing home.