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Please lower or waive Second Life® fees during the COVID-19 pandemic.


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5 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

What is "optional form of entertainment" to you, is a substantial part of some artists' monthly income.

It is a substantial part of the artists' monthly income by the choice of nobody but themselves.

Linden Lab could close Second Life tomorrow, without warning or obligation to you, yet you expect your request to seem reasonable?

Can't afford a region? Get a parcel.

Nobody who drops 4 figures a year on a virtual world should get a handout.

A penny saved is a penny earned. Budget for your situation.

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Going to be closing this topic as it has gotten so far off the original topic.   I hope everyone is staying safe and having a good weekend.

There are multiple current threads expressing similar views.  Have you asked your grocery store to cut prices? 

It's offensive to me because I work for the UK government on their response to this outbreak. My colleagues and I have been working ridiculous hours developing entire public services in the space of d

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1 minute ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

If someones ONLY income is what they earn in SL AND they are ONLY making roughly US $1000 per month, then they probably should not even own a private region.  

I'm not sure how you conclude that from the comment you quoted.

But let me out on a limb:

What if owning a private region is their way to promote their business, and not having that mechanic to advertise and vend their products would mean that the hypothetical 1,000 USD they generally earn that way, got reduced to something like 200 USD?

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6 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

This doesn't say it, because it is out of context.

The context here was that I'm explaining why I would know things about artists with small businesses, and my response was that I supply them with features.

Please stop tearing my comments apart to pervert the context.

This isn't a trolling match.

Wow. I made two posts, two very short posts, and I'm tearing your comments apart?

You had already lost the argument when you resorted to name calling within two posts.

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11 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

A first and fast way to identify them would be to look at their economic limits tier.

I have thought this through as well as I can based on the limited information that I have.

That's why I said lower or waive "any or all" of these fees.

This could be anything. In my personal opinion to most simple to implement, and reasonable would be the process credit fee of 5%, reducing that to 2.5% or waiving it for some 30 days might not be a lot, but at least something, and be it only a gesture of good will.

I'm one of those people your petition supposedly targets yet it won't do me a damn bit of good. You're not doing this for the little guys.

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4 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

It is a substantial part of the artists' monthly income by the choice of nobody but themselves.

Easy choice to make when your real life workshop is shut down during corona crisis.

5 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

Linden Lab could close Second Life tomorrow, without warning or obligation to you, yet you expect your request to seem reasonable?

I don't expect that my request "seems reasonable". I think it is just and right.

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13 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:
24 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I'm sure there are SL creators who need the small income they make here. How do you propose to identify them? I don't believe you can.

A first and fast way to identify them would be to look at their economic limits tier.

Those limits are not based on RL economic circumstances.

There's no way for you, or LL, to determine whether someone making $1000/month here is living hand-to-mouth in RL, or has no financial worries at all.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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10 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I respect your opinion, but that is not what I believe.

I think that the big brands will benefit, but not so the small brands, in particular those who are "Resident 2" or lower.

Much of the reactions in the comments here show that, in my opinion.

There appears to be lots of anger coming from those above "Resident 2" because it doesn't include them, but they don't depend on the 20 to 100 dollars extra this month to get by, as they all earn more than 1,999 USD in 30 days, and not less.

This isn't a measure that has to be in place for a long time. It is something that is done, for, let's say a 30 day window, or a 45 day window, or some limited time that would work.

I was posting this topic because I hoped to get opinions and ideas on how this could work, unfortunately most who are participating in this thread seem to argue for the sake of argueing, criticise the way I chose to broadcast my petition, and out-right wipe it off the table.

There is very little dialectic going on here, and that is quite surprising me, because this is not what I know from my own community, or communities on other MMOs.

I think you're ignoring some points that are just as important as your points.  Personally, I can understand why you, anyone, would want this relief. I just don't think you've actually thought it through entirely, which is why I believe it needs wiped off the table.

Again, where was the cry for relief when other creators, other merchants, other artists, other people...when they hit on hard times? You said you see no problem in your ask for relief now, but you haven't actually addressed the questions I asked (or others asked, even if in a roundabout way) about others suffering with no relief even offered, let alone actually given.

You do realize that many, many more people have suffered financial losses in sl, that affected their real lives and real income as well, in the past, than are suffering now, right? People who have to reduce inworld costs in order to make profit, regardless of the amount of profit, do actually have options. The MP is a very profitable option right now, despite the commission fee being charged. It is, in fact, the option many of us have had to choose, for as long as that option has existed (and before that, when we had to use xstreet boxes, we had options for limiting the cost of needing somewhere to rez those as well). We DO have options, and you're pretending we do not. Are they the most ideal options at all times? Of course they're not, just like closing up shop entirely is not the most ideal option. But many have had to make this choice.

My other question to you, which I didn't ask directly, but I will now is...

Why does THIS crisis, and the people it is affecting now, carry more importance for you than past crises other people have suffered, thereby warranting a larger handout, a larger hand up? I have seen people in sl go through some pretty *****ty stuff, people who had, or have, profit margins of all sizes. I have never seen you once step in and ask for relief for those people. So, to ask another question which goes hand in hand here...why is it now fair to make such an ask, but was never fair enough for you to care in the past, for others, including people you are now calling your own customers who rely on your works? Saying "sorry you had troubles" isn't an answer I would deem worthy here, and as kind as some might think that to be, it doesn't really address the questions and won't appease my curiosity on the "why now" part. 

I'm not arguing for arguments sake, I really want to know "why now", when a whole bunch of people have already told you they're not seeing this mass destruction and widespread loss of income you are saying you're seeing. I want you to see there is another side to this, aside from your own, regardless of whence from your intentions were born. You can't ignore these past instances of lost income for others because they're in the past. If you want anyone to support the idea that relief is a good idea now, you need to address why it was never a good idea in the past and why you didn't care now.

That is, I believe, a huge part of why you're getting such a lack of support. You won't address the ginormous elephant in the middle of the room. I won't back ANY idea for relief now, if people can't tell me why it's more important now, but was never worth their time in the past. LL has never stepped in to financially help people who are suffering through a crisis before, regardless of how many people, the enormity of the crisis, the financial burden placed on the people..or any other component. So, again, to summarize.....why now...why you...why them...but now before, not others, not for those reasons?

Can't address those, I'm afraid your idea will be lost before it even makes it to paper. (and you haven't actually addressed these questions at all, you're skirting around them with half answers)

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1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You're not doing this for the little guys.

I'm doing that for, let me quote my petition:

"...artists, performers, indy coders, graphic designers and students..."

Those content creators who are in the "Resident 2", or lower, economic limits tier, who's real life business lay dormant during this crisis, and who rely on the small income they make on SL with their little brands.

7 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Wow. I made two posts, two very short posts, and I'm tearing your comments apart?

I'm sorry but you seem to only argue for the sake of arguing.

That's what it is when taking short, not even whole sentences, into quotes, to try changing the context of the actual comment. It's a method used by trolls to derail topics.

I'm trying to defend my position with eloquence, even as a non-native speaker, sound reason, and my humanity. I don't think in numbers at the end of the day, I think in love.

And that is what we need right now during distancing, anxiety and financial ruin.

We need love firstmost, and then we need money, quite frankly.

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3 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Easy choice to make when your real life workshop is shut down during corona crisis.

I don't expect that my request "seems reasonable". I think it is just and right.

It has be reasonable to be just and right. It is neither.

When your real life workshop shuts down, yes, SL might be a backup. But it might not. It never was a money maker for many, and thats even harder right now. Linden Lab does provide the platform, but doing business is up to you. It is up to you to be creative and find ways to pay the bills in times that are tougher. It is up to you to find ways to draw a crowd when you are up against competition or having to sell off the traditional means (Your region).

Is your government providing a relief package for those in your country who have been forced to close up shop? Thats who should be contributing to your issue, not Linden Lab.

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2 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

It is up to you to find ways to draw a crowd when you are up against competition or having to sell off the traditional means (Your region).

Small brand owners don't have that reach. I do, and I support them.

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19 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

The MP is a very profitable option right now, despite the commission fee being charged. It is, in fact, the option many of us have had to choose, for as long as that option has existed (and before that, when we had to use xstreet boxes, we had options for limiting the cost of needing somewhere to rez those as well). We DO have options, and you're pretending we do not. Are they the most ideal options at all times? Of course they're not, just like closing up shop entirely is not the most ideal option. But many have had to make this choice.

Aside from all the actual debate that is going on here...I agree with Tari about Marketplace.

However, the OP feels these particular artists she knows of will go down to around 200 U.S. dollars in income rather than 1,000 U.S. dollars income.

I don't know how the OP arrived at the great reduction in amount (other than it's EVENTS that need land like 50 Linden events or what have you).  The OP would need to tell the people they need to start using LL's promotion features on MP.  It costs (about) $3.50 to promote one item per week on MP which I feel is a lot for my business.  But my business is primarily geared towards low income users in the first place or those who just want to try out SL without a big investment at first....so I only make "hobby money".  

And, to Wendy, the OP, you don't need to reply to every post...you could exhaust yourself.  Please consider taking a break for a while.

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3 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

...artists, performers, indy coders, graphic designers and students..."

Those content creators who are in the "Resident 2", or lower, economic limits tier, who's real life business lay dormant during this crisis, and who rely on the small income they make on SL with their little brands.

I fit that description.

As for the rest of your post, English is not my native language.

 

The whole world has lost its collective mind and has officially gone stark raving bonkers.

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2 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Small brand owners don't have that reach. I do, and I support them.

Great! I applaud you for that.

But Linden Lab has no obligation, morally or otherwise, to get involved in the CHOICES of others.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

Why does THIS crisis, and the people it is affecting now, carry more importance for you than past crises other people have suffered, thereby warranting a larger handout, a larger hand up? I have seen people in sl go through some pretty *****ty stuff, people who had, or have, profit margins of all sizes. I have never seen you once step in and ask for relief for those people.

I'm not ranking anything by importance, but as you seem to know me, you should know that I do stuff like that every once in a while.

I have a banner, a large flag, at Arcadia that regularly changes to make aware of social issues. I also was starting to use my personal blog and twitter more frequently.

https://twitter.com/wendystarfall

Issues I brought to attention were among other things, mass shootings and car massacres, memorials for deceased humanitarians, women's rights, issues concerning the LGBTQ+ community, climate change, cancer support for children, and other causes.

EDIT: Spelling and twitter link.

Edited by Wendy Starfall
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I am a creator that now has to rely on my SL business income.  I, like thousands of others, have had to change our lives around because of Isolation.  It is what it is, and we have to deal with it the best we can right now. 

So, let me explain why the OP's request that LL lower it's fees, bothers me so much.

1. I need SL to remain stable and ONLINE ... so I am willing to pay those fees every time.  No SL= no store for Tara = no small income to help get by.  Running a business costs money. And thank the gods that the cost in SL is nothing compared to running an RL business.

2.  I need SL to help keep my mind off it all.  It helps ease my anxiety to log in and work on stuff, play a little dress up and chat with peeps.

LL needs those fees to ensure, I can have 1. and 2. available to me.

P.S.

I see people also demanding inworld stores SLASH! their prices .... give stuff away for free.  I am all for helping out, but... buying things is SL is already very cheap.  If you are spending more than you should, don't.  And if stores want to have sales, they will.  SL is full of generous understanding people.  Making demands , though...seriously...it's not cool.

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

1. I need SL to remain stable and ONLINE ... so I am willing to pay those fees every time.  No SL= no store for Tara = no small income to help get by.  Running a business costs money. And thank the gods that the cost in SL is nothing compared to running an RL business.

2.  I need SL to help keep my mind off it all.  It helps ease my anxiety to log in and work on stuff, play a little dress up and chat with peeps.

LL needs those fees to ensure, I can have 1. and 2. available to me.

None of us know the numbers well enough to validate that assumption.

We can only make educated guesses, as long time SL content creators.

My guess is that reducing or even waiving payment processing fee for 30 to 45 days only for the "Resident 2" economic limits tier and below, isn't going to make a dent in Linden Lab's revenue, while it might (excuse the language) quite literally save some peoples' butts.

I think though that lowering private region tier would probably have more negative effects on Linden Lab's revenue, but I wasn't suggesting that, I said "any or all" of all those fees.

EDIT: Missing word "fee" added.

Edited by Wendy Starfall
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As a side note, Ebbe mentioned in a Lab Gab that Linden Lab (could - would?) look at hardship cases on a one by one basis during the current crises.  So anyone who believes that they REALLY "deserve" special help could try contacting The Lab. 

 

This was the recent Lab Gab with Ebbe and Patch.   

 

The argument that virus issues have hurt creator sales is anecdotal only as my sales have stayed stable this last month and at least one other long time creator mentioned that on another thread.  Sales (for me) have dropped during the last nine months but that was long before we had lockdowns and worldwide "unemployment".  

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11 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

None of us know the numbers well enough to validate that assumption.

We can only make educated guesses, as long time SL content creators.

My guess is that reducing or even waiving payment processing fee for 30 to 45 days only for the "Resident 2" economic limits tier and below, isn't going to make a dent in Linden Lab's revenue, while it might (excuse the language) quite literally save some peoples' butts.

I think though that lowering private region tier would probably have more negative effects on Linden Lab's revenue, but I wasn't suggesting that, I said "any or all" of all those fees.

EDIT: Missing word "fee" added.

My guess is....  I don't care.

The fees exist to keep LL viable. With so many businesses dead in the water atm......any that can weather this storm, well more power to them.  LL's fees are not extraordinary. This is not a hardship. 

Good Luck, though *shrugs*

 

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40 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I don't expect that my request "seems reasonable". I think it is just and right.

Do you even hear yourself talk? This here is about businesses, so your petition better be reasonable. Also you are mistaken in thinking that it is "just and right" to stomp your foot on the ground like a toddler and demand that LL gives up a good portion of their income for your (and the people you assume to speak for) benefit. Your inability to sensibily respond to the rightfully raised questions and remarks about your petition makes you look entitled and greedy and the misuse of your product related communication channels make you look ignorant and self-righteous.

You know what? I think petitions like this only make LL less likely to do anything like that, as it would look like they could be forced to dance like a bear in the circus, if a resident just demands it loud enough.

 

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In order for LL to remove/ignore fees for a certain set of the SL population, someone in the back end either has to create and/or modify some code or manually do a lot of processing to give back money after it was taken.  

IF your suggestion were to be implemented, the following needs to be done:

(a)  Define the criteria as to who qualifies.  Start with those that process credit for US $2000 per month or less (per your designation).  For how long does the person need to be in that category?  Just the last month or the previous 3,6,9,12 months?  Do they need to meet the US $ designation for every one of the months looked at or are we talking about an average over some number of months?

(b) Now that we have a list of Residents from (a), we need to figure out if they really rely on that income in RL.  The ONLY way to know that is for every single person that wants relief from LL to submit all of their financial data for some period of time (the last few months or years) in order to prove that they truly rely on their SL income.  There is no way to automate the review of said data, so that will require probably at least 1-2 people full time just to review documents and say yeah or nay for each person.

Now that LL knows who should get this relief, LL needs to actually implement it.  They have the following options:

1) For fully automated relief - as in, not charging the fee to begin with - all of those names from step (b) above need to be entered into a list/table AND the applicable fee charging code needs to be modified to check that list/table and either not charge the fee or charge a designated reduced fee.  After that coding is completed, it now needs to go through all of the EXTREME testing that is required when any financial code is modified.

2) Or, instead of modifying the code, LL could hire a few people to do nothing all day except go through all of the various fee charge transactions -- MP commission, LindeX fees, region/tier charges -- and see if the person's name is on the previously created list and refund the fee/charge.  Would anyone like to guess how many said transactions happen per day?

3) Or someone could possibly write some code to do #2, which still requires someone's time to write the code and the time & people needed to do the testing.


Truth be told, removing or reducing fees for a subset of people is far, far harder and more time consuming that just flat doing it for everyone - which of course definitely should not be done.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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7 minutes ago, Tarani Tempest said:

My guess is....  I don't care.

The fees exist to keep LL viable. With so many businesses dead in the water atm......any that can weather this storm, well more power to them.  LL's fees are not extraordinary. This is not a hardship. 

Well, when I still was doing commissions, and in the course of things getting more "expensive", it reached a point for me where I had to give away more than half of what I earned (obviously including things like income tax and other costs), but that was before I quit doing commissions and splits. People in other countries have a different situation.

You are 100% correct. It's not a hardship.

It's slavery.

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9 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

You know what? I think petitions like this only make LL less likely to do anything like that, as it would look like they could be forced to dance like a bear in the circus, if a resident just demands it loud enough.

It's a petition, not a demand, and unlike how some people choose to communicate themselves here, it is also not a polemic.

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28 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I'm not ranking anything by importance, but as you seem to know me, you should know that I do stuff like that every once in a while.

I have a banner, a large flag, at Arcadia that regularly changes to make aware of social issues. I also was starting to use my personal blog and twitter more frequently.

https://twitter.com/wendystarfall

Issues I brought to attention were among other things, mass shootings and car massacres, memorials for deceased humanitarians, women's rights, issues concerning the LGBTQ+ community, climate change, cancer support for children, and other causes.

EDIT: Spelling and twitter link.

That didn't answer even one of my questions...like I said, skirting around the questions won't get you support. They may not be fun questions to answer, but if you want backing, if you want support for the idea, you have to address all concerns, not just some.  Give LL, and the rest of the community a reason to support you, they just might. Keep skirting things and people will start to assume, rightly or wrongly, you're in this for your own gain alone. I mean, that's just reality, when you ask people for support or help, they're going to have questions. 

Stop promoting yourself and answer people and people will stop assuming you're just in this for your own benefit (that sounds bitchy, but it's not, you keep doing it and I'm not sure that's the best approach to puff out your own chest and give yourself accolades while asking for help, lol)

Why does this crisis warrant financial relief, when NO OTHER one ever has, and you, personally (or even others), have never once asked for financial relief for others during other past crisis? The type of crisis is irrelevant, the financial hit remains the same, in countless prior situations...none of which were worthy enough for you, or anyone else, to petition LL for relief.  LL has never offered such either, again, because it's never been warranted. This situation, *****ty as it is, also won't likely fit the bill for LL financial relief, unless you give them some concrete evidence that it's warranted and won't harm their bottom line. You're not doing that, you're trying to pull at heartstrings that are likely already stretched super thing...so you need a new approach to this. 

Bringing awareness of issues is important, a good gesture, but none of that awareness came with a cry for relief for those financially suffering due to a crisis. That's what I am addressing. You're ignoring all the people who are saying "no, people are making MORE money now, because of an influx" and pretending that influx isn't coming with financial compensation for some people, I'm guessing because it fits your narrative better to pretend that very real fact doesn't exist (that's not judgmental of me, just what I'm seeing when I take words at their face value, as typed). Can't ask people to help those suffering financially when the numbers don't match the ask. 

 

So..why now, why you, why them....why not before, why not others, why not for other reasons? These will help steer people on the fence about offering you support, imo, better than stating the obvious like..people are hurting financially...because people already know those things.  You need to address the things people don't know. 

Someone else can probably say all of this way better than me. I'm too grumpy and probably just going to keep coming off as a judgmental ahole. 

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9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Truth be told, removing or reducing fees for a subset of people is far, far harder and more time consuming that just flat doing it for everyone - which of course definitely should not be done.

That's why my personal suggestion would be the LindeX or process credit fee.

A single variable to change, based on the residents economic limits tier.

This appears to be the most simple to implement, but I'm not familiar with their system, and as I said earlier, this is just an educated guess.

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4 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

So..why now, why you, why them....why not before, why not others, why not for other reasons?

I think what you mean is: Why not me?

Earlier I responded to you that I'm sorry you couldn't get the help that you needed, when you needed it. But to be quite frank? This is not about you, or some past event.

It's about a current issue, that affects people globally, and as it just so happens, we are users of a platform that includes many, many artists and content creators, who need help now, not yesterday or in the past, but right now.

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