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Please lower or waive Second Life® fees during the COVID-19 pandemic.


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24 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Most people read when people argue with each other. Keep the energy!

Which makes you a troll, and one who admits to it, so that you can get the "reads." No wonder your business is failing while others are seeing an upsurge (and there was a recent Caspervend graph that shows that sales via Caspervend are going up exponentially). Pi*sing people off may get you attention, but is it the attention you want? Years ago in San Francisco, Woody Harrelson shut down the Golden Gate Bridge with an environmentalist protest. Harrelson was loved. Environmental issues in SF? Loved. He wanted to draw attention to the issues. Boy did he. Everyone ended up hating him and his cause, something that while it recovered over time, had an immediate impact. So, keep trolling here and insulting people who logically and rationally disagree with you. That certainly will gain favor for your cause [sarcasm font]. Spam your customers and don't listen to them saying, "Stop it" and see what happens to your sales as they go to the alternatives... and there are alternatives. Part of staying in business is to retain your client base, and you are doing an excellent job of driving them away. ETA: I was ambivalent about the split that occurred with the OP's business a few years ago. This thread has indeed firmly planted me in the "other" camp and will have me going to the alternatives, not because of the petition but because of the OP's words and actions.

And since you seem to be craving argument, at any means, well... as they say, "Don't feed the trolls."

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Edited by Seicher Rae
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Going to be closing this topic as it has gotten so far off the original topic.   I hope everyone is staying safe and having a good weekend.

There are multiple current threads expressing similar views.  Have you asked your grocery store to cut prices? 

It's offensive to me because I work for the UK government on their response to this outbreak. My colleagues and I have been working ridiculous hours developing entire public services in the space of d

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1 minute ago, Seicher Rae said:

No wonder your business is failing while others are seeing an upsurge (and there was a recent Caspervend graph that shows that sales via Caspervend are going up exponentially).

I don't care about the sales of my L$ 0 updater / software script bundle.

It's something that people can use and enjoy, or entirely ignore - take it or leave it. 🤷‍♀️

The petition is for those content creators who earn the least and could use any help they can get during this crisis, while their real life businesses are shut down, and their whole income relies on the small amount they make with their stint on SL.

That's written in the original post, in the petition, and no matter what you argue in these comments - you cannot warp my original message by throwing stuff around like "she is a troll", "she loses group members in the past", "she is spamming me", and so forth.

This is not for me to garner attention, it's for people creating on SL to get a small bit more when processing credit that is below 1,999 USD.

That small bit, think 20 to 100 USD, makes a huge difference during this crisis, when the artists real life business is shut down. SL is their ONLY source of income right now.

Why so many people on this topic are so upset about this is a mystery to me.

Nobody is taking anything away from you, or asks for charity, or implies to put the running of SL as a whole in jeopardy. Waiving or reducing a fee, such as process credit, surely won't do any of that, but could make a huge difference for a few people.

Those few people are creating exactly the things that you enjoy playing with while you are social distancing.

I could change my argumentation to a similar polemic style and ask you in return:

Why do you want the little artists who create everything you love on SL to fail and fade away due to RL poverty? Why do you not respect their work as real work? Etc.

But I don't think that this is necessary because the original post and the petition gets to the bottom of it without trying to mislead or manipulate everyone, no matter if you wish it was that way.

Not liking me or my style personally must not be the main reason you disagree with an important cause.

Be noble and look past your jealousy.

This is not a time to argue among each other.

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19 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

15.000 doesn't say a lot when half of more left sl or created alts

It says enough when the community is active and lively, which it is vey much.

People appreciate it and are having fun, and as I responded above already to someone else:

Be noble and look past your jealousy, as this is not a time to argue among each other.

I know this might blow your mind, but people like to be a part of my community because it is even NOT about some products, or sales events, or gacha or whatever business.

It's a place where we are not afraid to talk about social issues, quite direct, where free speech is respected, and where people feel they resonate with others who feel the same.

In a place like SL that is basically just "skill gaming", malls, shops, shopping events and pornography, groups and communities like mine have been a bastion of authenthicity.

And it is the members making the group, not "Wendy Starfall".

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2 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

sweety i don't use your "stuff" nor have interest in it, and if i woudl be i'd reported you for every abusive use of the "stuff"

The only person who is using belitteling language and whining seems to be you.

5 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

this thread isn't either... however she keeps whining about nothing

You and someone else has also chosen to no longer address me as someone in the thread, but derogatively in the third person.

You are losing control.

 

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3 hours ago, PitchyMoo said:

SL is not some company to make money out but a amusement platform

You mean like Disneyland or the Washington Redskins? Let me clue you in on a secret. Disneyland and the Washington Redskins make money, and if they didn't they would not exist, and there would be no more amusement from them.

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I'm not going to take a 'side' here, I'm one of those people that contribute  very little to the   health of this platform, I pay my premium, I spend between 0-$80 a month, supporting creators products, sims, and performers in second life, and my tier fees, I will never own a full sim, a club, or be a creator of products, as I have  not the skills, or the inclination to work hard   and have a job, on a platform which any day Linden labs could pull the plug on and my hard work is effectively lost. 

The bottom line, as I see it

Linden labs have three choices.

1. They can ignore  people presenting things like Wendy.

 If they do this the will lose revenue. They gamble on those people, finding it tight in normal times putting themselves in debt, for what plenty of people are calling a Luxury product.

So basically they are relying on people making foolish choices, putting  Second life  ahead of  paying that electricity bill. Taking this course is going to cause  places to close, estates to shut down, Linden labs  finance projections will fall on their face, in an uncontrolled maner.

2 They can reduce every person with  an estate by x amount.

X amount could be anything between suspending  payments to a  virtually useless token reduction.

clearly it can't be suspension or there would be trouble paying their own people ( I guess,  as has anyone got the monthly gross profit  of LL ?) a small amount would be pointless, as for those making lots of money they won't notice it, and for those that keep sims running for the love of it,  the decrease would ultimately make no difference.

So while it's not going to be as bad as option one, there will be a fall off in linden labs profits, but it will still only be semi controlled.

3 They can look at each account that owns estates, they can see which   runs at a profit needing none to virtually no help, to those that are making no profit,  and those that will make a loss, and  waive some tier fees  to help the people really needing it.

This is the only choice where linden labs have some control of  the loss of profits, this method also   is the most likely, to have a positive impact  on  people keeping their estates open, and the grid enjoying some stability for better times.

This of course will cause  those getting no help to be highly critical of Linden labs, and there will be those that will voice this should option 3 be taken.

 

Make no mistake, whatever Linden labs do,  the companies profits are going to take a hit, people will either lose jobs or take salary reductions, this will impact every person on the grid, whether it be the grids performance, or losing a favourite place to go.

As people have pointed out, this is a luxury product,  so it and other virtual place will get hit harder than a grocery store.

This is why Linden labs had better be having some serious meetings, and choosing a path that will have  less impact on  it's long term health.

Covid-19 is not going away, this year. 

It's killing Lords, its killing the destitute, the homeless.

A practical vaccine for all people, will not  happen until 2021, unless big corners are cut at the human testing stage, which could make things worse, and leave the people creating it  open to legal action.

How many estate owners become casualties, cannot be projected.

I'll Repeat because it is important.

Linden labs have to make the right choice, to keep the grid as stable as possible for the next three, six, twelve months.

I really don't envy them

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10 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

Disneyland and the Washington Redskins make money, and if they didn't they would not exist

 

Just how small shops on SL make money, or they wouldn't exist.

What rubs me kind of wrong is the assumption that content creation is a "hobby".

It's maybe done as a "hobby" by some people, but those are not the kind of people who rely on the process credit during corona. The people who rely on that the most are those artists and content creators who get no RL income at all during the shut downs world wide.

And I don't understand why there are so many real world comparisons. Those people's job is "SL content creator", where they make below 1,999 USD (obviously way less) each month.

It is relevant to SL users that these people are in a position to continue creating content.

That's something we care about here, an interest of ours, like there are probably countless similar interests for people in other fields that their fellow "colleagues" make it through this crisis and keep their head above the water.

EDIT: Forgot to quote!

Edited by Wendy Starfall
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Thank you @PeterDwyerTownsend for this well reflected post.

I was hoping for something like this in the beginning of the topic, but better late than never. I'm going to have to think for a while now. 

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4 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

There is a very toxic and very vocal minority in the SL community

 

3 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Don't be so angry all the time.

 

3 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I'm sorry, I didn't understand at first that you aren't a native English speaker.

I will try to express my opinions in a more simple English when I respond next time.

For now you can maybe make use of https://translate.google.com or https://www.bing.com/translator.

 

3 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

What I learned from this topic so far is that a lot of people have little to no understanding that content creation is real work.

 

2 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Mathematics is a language of nature, where things are represented by numbers.

Where do you get your numbers?

 

1 hour ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand:

 

1 hour ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The more comments it gets, the higher it ranks in the search, the more people will read the OP. I'm happy to continue responding until I find something to do that requires my full attention, like eating or masturbating. ❤️

 

1 hour ago, Wendy Starfall said:

It's easy to use another topic as counter point when the poster, me, only ever opened one other big topic about a similar issue. With those investigation skills you should work for the NSA. 👍

Most people read when people argue with each other. Keep the energy!

 

1 hour ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Give it your best shot. The validity of your counter points are killing it.

I already learned that the official SL fora are where the gen. pop disagrees with almost "everything Wendy Starfall". But that's okay, I appreciate people's opinions.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

  Be noble and look past your jealousy, as this is not a time to argue among each other.

..

In a place like SL that is basically just "skill gaming", malls, shops, shopping events and pornography, groups and communities like mine have been a bastion of authenthicity.

 

15 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The only person who is using belitteling language and whining seems to be you.

.........

You are losing control.

You proved the untruth of your comment that you are not using belittling language just in that last posting, but I have gathered your other belittling comments into this handy basket.  You're actively trying to provoke reactions in order to boost your topic, while ignoring my genuine offer of help for those for whom you claim to care.  I'd ask why but you'd just use it as an excuse to keep going.

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7 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The SL shopkeeper can't keep their SL shop when they have to let their sim go to get by this month, and then having lost all in-world business in the next month.

I did that years ago.....I have yet to ask anyone for a handout, including other people in sl, and LL. No one has ever offered to pay my fees for land, uploads, basic maintenance. I can't imagine myself ever asking anyone to either.

I had a lot more typed here but it was really, really bitchy, so I'll try again without being so bitchy.

As much as it sucks for this to be affecting people, even in sl, and their income, meager as it may be to some.....you are going to be hard pressed to find too many people that are going to have a lot of sympathy. Many of us have cut sl expenses (and greatly reduced sl income), because rl is more important, for a myriad of reasons. No one has ever so much as offered assistance to us in the past, and regardless of how widespread this issue really is, I'm not certain you'll find many people that find relief for the rest of you now is fair.  

To be a bit bitchy because..some common sense needs bitchiness now and then..where was your cry for a handout for me when I was hospitalized, or when my child was, and I had to eliminate my inworld store entirely? Where was your offer of relief for me when I simply had to stop creating, stop uploading, stop working, because the resources necessary for such is too great?  Where is your cry for help for me now that I cannot create the way I would like, because I have to rely heavily on the works of others (which I value, respect and believe are worth their weight in gold) and they're too far out of my range of affordable? 

Replace that me, and my situation, with any number of other situations, and any number of other people...and you will see precisely why you'll be hard pressed to get anyone to back this idea. You weren't there to care about other creators during their own rough times...but you want them to be there to back you up now......

Do you see the problem in this suggestion?

Many a creator have come and gone in sl, many a shop owner, many, many, many people who have had to reduce sl income (or eliminate it entirely) for rl reasons completely out of their control, and varying quite widely. It sucks when it happens..but that's life, and sometimes life e'ffn sucks. A virtual world is an option, not a necessity, even if you rely on it for rl income. I know the feeling, sl paid my rl expenses (all of them) for the better part of 4+ years. I had to make choices, just like countless other people. Now, more people are having to make choices, some of them hard. Sl is still always an option, not a necessity. 

I do personally have some sympathy, because I know those choices are hard...but I will not back the idea that fees should be reduced or waived for some, not all, or that this crisis is any worse than the myriad of other crisis countless real, actual people have had over the 16+ years sl has existed that have had to greatly reduce their ability to profit from sl. That's just, asinine. 

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2 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I have gathered your other belittling comments into this handy basket. 

Thanks for that "handy basket".

It's a good quick reference to see how people were treating me on this topic, for those who didn't want to read through all of the comments, because you are linking to the whole post, and reading any of those tells a quite different story.

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1 minute ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Thanks for that "handy basket".

It's a good quick reference to see how people were treating me on this topic, for those who didn't want to read through all of the comments, because you are linking to the whole post, and reading any of those tells a quite different story.

No, the story is plain enough, and again you've ignored my offer. 

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52 minutes ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Not liking me or my style personally must not be the main reason you disagree with an important cause.

Be noble and look past your jealousy.

Lower that opinion of yourself.

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1 minute ago, Tari Landar said:

Do you see the problem in this suggestion?

No, I don't, but I'm sorry that you had to go through this hardship.

I am sorry that I couldn't be there for you when you needed me. I have read your name for the first time in my life. You are welcome to join my community and call it home.

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Just now, Skell Dagger said:

Lower that opinion of yourself.

That's a funny thing to say in a forum thread where I have to defend myself, where everything I say gets twisted, and people flood the thread with off-topic trolling.

I think I'm quite robust, and I stood up to everyone so far.

So why don't you add some salt, or lower your own opinion about yourself, if a single sentence comment is all the man-power you got, big man? 🤷‍♀️

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Wendy, your premise is simply flawed.

I went shopping for heads, hair, and clothes in SL yesterday.  Several of the stores were mobbed...more avatars there than I've seen before except for a few big shopping events and an occasional flash mob.

I went around the Social Islands over the last couple of days, too.  There are more incoming newbies than I've ever seen.  While these people don't have any money to spend yet, and many of them will leave after a short trial, it still means that SL is getting more interest during this enforced stay-at-home time.

SL business owners of all sizes will benefit.  They don't need a handout from LL.

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7 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

Please read the original post and/or petition again:

This is specifically about people who need the small income they made on SL now as their main income, as they cannot do any business in RL as artists due to the corona crisis.

I'm sure there are SL creators who need the small income they make here. How do you propose to identify them? I don't believe you can.

You are advocating for a real social welfare program inside a virtual economy that's completely unable to identify the target of its largesse.

That dog won't hunt.

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7 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

The SL shopkeeper can't keep their SL shop when they have to let their sim go to get by this month, and then having lost all in-world business in the next month.

LL can't keep the grid up if they keep reducing fees without compensating for those reductions elsewhere. 

I know you're just trying to be helpful during hard times but you haven't thought this thing all the way through. LL has bills to pay to keep the grid open. If they can't pay their bills we won't have any SL to go to.

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2 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

SL business owners of all sizes will benefit.  They don't need a handout from LL.

I respect your opinion, but that is not what I believe.

I think that the big brands will benefit, but not so the small brands, in particular those who are "Resident 2" or lower.

Much of the reactions in the comments here show that, in my opinion.

There appears to be lots of anger coming from those above "Resident 2" because it doesn't include them, but they don't depend on the 20 to 100 dollars extra this month to get by, as they all earn more than 1,999 USD in 30 days, and not less.

This isn't a measure that has to be in place for a long time. It is something that is done, for, let's say a 30 day window, or a 45 day window, or some limited time that would work.

I was posting this topic because I hoped to get opinions and ideas on how this could work, unfortunately most who are participating in this thread seem to argue for the sake of argueing, criticise the way I chose to broadcast my petition, and out-right wipe it off the table.

There is very little dialectic going on here, and that is quite surprising me, because this is not what I know from my own community, or communities on other MMOs.

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6 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I care for those artists who need my feature set so their beautiful creations can be and found more easily and made more appealing to customers by offering popular features.

I think this pretty much says it all.

Arrogance and entitlement go hand in hand.

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7 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I'm sure there are SL creators who need the small income they make here. How do you propose to identify them? I don't believe you can.

A first and fast way to identify them would be to look at their economic limits tier.

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I know you're just trying to be helpful during hard times but you haven't thought this thing all the way through.

I have thought this through as well as I can based on the limited information that I have.

That's why I said lower or waive "any or all" of these fees.

This could be anything. In my personal opinion to most simple to implement, and reasonable would be the process credit fee of 5%, reducing that to 2.5% or waiving it for some 30 days might not be a lot, but at least something, and be it only a gesture of good will.

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2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I think this pretty much says it all.

This doesn't say it, because it is out of context.

The context here was that I'm explaining why I would know things about artists with small businesses, and my response was that I supply them with features.

Please stop tearing my comments apart to pervert the context.

This isn't a trolling match.

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3 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

So their only income is what they currently earn through SL.

If someone's ONLY income is what they earn in SL AND they are ONLY making roughly US $1000 per month, then they probably should not even own a private region.  

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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