leliel Mirihi Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Ansariel Hiller wrote: 1. The majority hasn't stopped using V1 based viewers. Get your figures right! LL doesn't support TPVs and this thread is about one such TPV that has been fixed. Throughout this entire discussion when I have referred to v1 I meant LL's v1, as in 1.23. Quit trying to start a v2 flame war. 2. The reason why OSX 10.4 support was dropped because of issues with the gcc compiler. And that changes the fact that LL has yet to say anything about it how? 3. Guess who provided the initial fix for the physics issue: Seraphim Linden. You may also guess why they provided the fix! And you can guess why LL hasn't provided an update to 1.23 with that patch. 4. You know that IPv4 packets are already routed via IPv6 in the backbones? Guess what will happen if a change suddenly would break IPv4 piggybacking and somebody says "Your fault! You know IPv4 reaches EOL!" instead of providing a fix? No they're not. And go read up on how 6to4 works then come back here and tell me again that it's a viable solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansariel Hiller Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 And in which way does that change anything? So LL should only take care of about 40% of it's residents? Doesn't sound like a good business idea to me! You may also stop trying to cut down discussion by playing the flame, troll or bashing card! The only one actually bashing viewers so far is you - in case you haven't noticed yet! You brought up Mac OSX as attempt to use it as argument why it's okay to just drop support for stuff. I just explained why support was dropped. But that didn't have to do with changing the viewer protocol right from the beginning! I don't need to guess because I know it! Gah I knew this would come as answer, trying to disrupt discussion in technical breakdown! Maybe you should try to understand that an example is a theoretical thing. If you can't or don't want to understand the idea behind my examples we'd better stop here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus Petrov Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Deltango Vale wrote: "What I find amusing is that LL emphasize this is a PG-rated area but when their standard viewer was updated to provide the bouncy breast option plus more, they did all they could do to market it (youtube vids, blog post, etc). /me laughs" --------------------------------------------------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13416598 Nice summary, Del. Still, none of those companies have claimed to be PG-centric (as have LL)..at least, publically. Only Disney might be lamblasted for using sex to market itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suella Ember Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Venus Petrov wrote: What I find amusing is that LL emphasize this is a PG-rated area but when their standard viewer was updated to provide the bouncy breast option plus more, they did all they could do to market it (youtube vids, blog post, etc). /me laughs The natural laws of physics are PG (well, actually, they are Universal!) so I don't see what the issue is. There's quite a difference between discussing the perfectly PG subject of physics (even using the perfectly PG word 'breast') versus showing, for example, exposed breasts which is not considered PG (which I'm not saying I entirely agree with, but that's a whole other political and social debate!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Because we're talking about whether or not LL should continue supporting its v1 viewer. And if you want to call providing a patch to fix the bug to TPVs only taking care of [an estimated] 40% of its users then um, ok. I could just copy & paste your reply to 4 here. And I never said it was ok, just that it had been done before, recently. So you agree with me that LL no longer cares about [its] v1 anymore and plans to drop support for it soon? Maybe you're right. In some ways 6to4 is a great example of your proposed solution since ipv6 hosts can initiate connections with ipv4 hosts but not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Ansariel Hiller wrote: So LL should only take care of about 40% of it's residents? Doesn't sound like a good business idea to me! They already do. If you are part of the 60% who don't live in the USA your data isn't as valuable to steal sell so they don't care about you. Ansariel Hiller wrote: You may also stop trying to cut down discussion by playing the flame, troll or bashing card! The only one actually bashing viewers so far is you - in case you haven't noticed yet! 'fraid not - the first shot was fired by Deltango and I pointed out the stupidity and pointlessness of the argument. Since then, this thread has gone on very much longer than was interesting because some people, for instance with the initals AH, can't pass-up an opportunity to flame something they don't personally use. The thread wrote: tl;dr [Editor ate a bunch of stuff here] We don't need any more viewer fundamentalists prosecuting religious wars thanks, there are already plenty here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansariel Hiller Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Like I said: If you don't want to even try to understand it's worthless to discuss any further with you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suella Ember Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 For whatever it's worth, the Viewer 1 vs Viewer 2 debate breaking out here is laregely pointless. V1 will be going soon and, whatever people think of Viewer 2, it would be a good idea to get used to Viewer 2 now (either official or TPV version) I'd strongly recommened anyone still using Viewer 1 to read and absorb this: http://blog.nalates.net/2011/05/11/the-sl-world-is-about-to-change/ And Kirsten's appeal to Viewer 1 users here: http://www.kirstensviewer.com/Blog/166/__World_in_my_eyes..._S21(7)_Release.__.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Singer Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 LL made a promise to continued availability of their own v1 option, and to their credit, they've kept that that promise, although only in the most minimal sense possible that said their plan of action is very clear.... don't update it, and continue to offer new goodies in V2 until there is no sensible point in anyone downloading it. To that end, they have no problem replacing connected features such as search, with newer incompatible versions, although the last OFFICIAL word on things like the world.secondlife.com (which holds not only the old search pages, but also profiles and place information) is THAT service would NOT be terminated (per my own questions at one of the inworld meetings), so there is hope that v1 style search may be portable to some other service for continued use.... whether it will continue to be updated is a bit up in the air. But my current understanding is that they are holding off until a majority of users (regardless of viewer used) can access other options in an "acceptable" format (meaning they're waiting for V2 style adoption from major TPV's like Firestorm, Kokua, and Ascent) at no time past or present have has LL given a statement about completely cutting off v1 based viewers, in fact quite the opposite, despite the rumor mill endless churning out dire predictions of "the end is nigh". That is not to say that it won't happen eventually as a natural consequence of security fixes and updates.... but that it won't be some unilateral decision "just because". and just to conteract the other popular rumor of "Support of V1 features is holding up new devlopment", no, it really isn't, yes they are paying money to keep things like old search running, but maintenace is a pittance compared to development, and even though LL gets to see one less expenditure by dropping it, I can guarantee you that money will never make its way to the dev departments.... if anything it's likely to go right into investors pockets, or as a best case for users, it might go into expanding the V2 search maintenance. and as an additional note: "real soon" never is at least from a user perspective... corporate perspectives operate on quarters and years... for instance we heard "real soon" for everything from Havok 4 (actually it was oringinall H2!), viewer 2, Mesh and a host of other things too numerous to mention... all of which have took (or have taken) years... some of seem to forget that in our desire to see it done yesterday, or our fear of seeing it done tomorrow. Even if Mesh were released tomorrow, you'd still see a lag in adoption, simply because it takes time to spread and give users a need to support it... we've seen the same lags in adoption with with various v2 features, almost all of which saw a jump in use once TPV's backported support (with the notable exception of Shared Media, which still has low adoption). and the reasons are simple, The core of content creators use the tools that work for them, and aren't going to trade that for a single new feature at the cost of losing what they consider essential tools. It may not be as bad this time around, with several core TPV's moving to V2 bases, but I have no doubt it'll happen. @Del I too would like to see some better integration with outside developers. Currently the onus has been on them to pry new information from the LL side of things, and the information only seems to be flowing in one direction. @ Suella: While I agree in theory about physics wearables, I can't help but note the focus.... it's aimed at very sexualized content and marketing... the notable exceptions of flabby arms, legs and jowls, and (in the interest of equality) jiggling ken doll packages is telling, so until I see those, and maybe bump maps for cottage cheese thighs, my personal take is that it's aimed at sexualizing female avatars specifically, which is certainly not in line with G marketing. @Myself I find it funny that I posted such a long reply, and yet not a bit of it had to do with the OP.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leliel Mirihi Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Void Singer wrote: at no time past or present have has LL given a statement about completely cutting off v1 based viewers, in fact quite the opposite, despite the rumor mill endless churning out dire predictions of "the end is nigh". That is not to say that it won't happen eventually as a natural consequence of security fixes and updates.... but that it won't be some unilateral decision "just because". I don't know if you're referring to me, but I've always been saying that LL will soon EOL their v1 viewer. I have no doubts that v1 based TPVs will continue on well after LL has stopped caring. A certain poster seems to have trouble distinguishing between the two, but that's probably because they believe in some mythical "v1" protocol. and as an additional note: "real soon" never is at least from a user perspective... corporate perspectives operate on quarters and years... for instance we heard "real soon" for everything from Havok 4 (actually it was oringinall H2!), viewer 2, Mesh and a host of other things too numerous to mention... all of which have took (or have taken) years... some of seem to forget that in our desire to see it done yesterday, or our fear of seeing it done tomorrow. Real soon now is a euphemism for corporate time. However in this case I think it really will be soon. The viewer and server mesh code is being merged in this week (disabled). @Myself I find it funny that I posted such a long reply, and yet not a bit of it had to do with the OP.... Welcome to the internets. ^.^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Singer Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 leliel Mirihi wrote: I don't know if you're referring to me, but I've always been saying that LL will soon EOL their v1 viewer. I have no doubts that v1 based TPVs will continue on well after LL has stopped caring. A certain poster seems to have trouble distinguishing between the two, but that's probably because they believe in some mythical "v1" protocol. you aren't the only one who has said it, so not specifically, but in general, yes.... they don't need to EOL it, just allow it to become so defunct from lack of support that no one in their right mind would bother with it... that's pretty much been the plan all along since they stopped snowglobe. then no one can blame them for not keeping their promise. It was effectively EOL from the day V2 was released. leliel Mirihi wrote: Real soon now is a euphemism for corporate time. However in this case I think it really will be soon. The viewer and server mesh code is being merged in this week (disabled). I give it at least another month of rollout/rollbacks and fixes before it's actually useable... but I'm guessing closer to wo or three considering some of the major delicate projects that are up for server integration right now... I have a strict cut off of 1-2 weeks for "soon".... you'll note that todays roll was halted midway and rolled back... I haven't seen the actual reason yet but I have my suspicions. leliel Mirihi wrote: Welcome to the internets. ^.^ well at least it wasn't a troll post.. so Im not "that person" yet... I still have time to change... honest (doh, did it again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Top 10 things likely to be overheard from a Klingon Programmer at Linden Lab. 1. Specifications are for the weak and timid! 2. You question the worthiness of my code? I should kill you where you stand! 3. Indentation?! - I will show you how to indent when I indent your skull! 4. What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not make software 'releases'. Our software 'escapes' leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in its wake. 5. Klingon function calls do not have 'parameters' - they have 'arguments' - and they ALWAYS WIN THEM. 6. Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak. 7. A TRUE Klingon Warrior does not comment on his code! 8. Klingon software does NOT have BUGS. It has FEATURES, and those features are too sophisticated for a Romulan pig like you to understand. 9. You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert unless you've read it in the original Klingon. 10. Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kascha Matova Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Perrie Juran wrote: Top 10 things likely to be overheard from a Klingon Programmer at Linden Lab. 1. Specifications are for the weak and timid! 2. You question the worthiness of my code? I should kill you where you stand! 3. Indentation?! - I will show you how to indent when I indent your skull! 4. What is this talk of 'release'? Klingons do not make software 'releases'. Our software 'escapes' leaving a bloody trail of designers and quality assurance people in its wake. 5. Klingon function calls do not have 'parameters' - they have 'arguments' - and they ALWAYS WIN THEM. 6. Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Our software does not coddle the weak. 7. A TRUE Klingon Warrior does not comment on his code! 8. Klingon software does NOT have BUGS. It has FEATURES, and those features are too sophisticated for a Romulan pig like you to understand. 9. You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert unless you've read it in the original Klingon. 10. Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! = Full of Win :smileyvery-happy: For the record, I think you should all quit all of your viewers and join me in a mass exodus towards Ascent, complete with screaming, yelling, torches, pitchforks, and miscellaneous untraceable shouts of "Shoulda been done aeons ago!" Because for the record, breast physics in Ascent seem just about right. No configurations, no concussions, no Helium, NO PROB-LEMAAAAH! :matte-motes-big-grin-squint: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus Petrov Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 @Suella: While the vids did not show breasts exposed, the 'focus' if you like was exactly that. And the giggle-giggle-nudge-nudge from LL was contrary to the hesitant and sometimes paranoid approach to letting adults have a 'safe' (i.e., outside googling eyes) place to discuss adult topics. I just find the contradictions all rather....fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Kascha Matova wrote: For the record, I think you should all quit all of your viewers and join me in a mass exodus towards Ascent, complete with screaming, yelling, torches, pitchforks, and miscellaneous untraceable shouts of "Shoulda been done aeons ago! Because for the record, breast physics in Ascent seem just about right. No configurations, no concussions, no Helium, NO PROB-LEMAAAAH! :matte-motes-big-grin-squint: Your "No Helium" content just made me think of something. What effect is all of this going to have on Prim Boobies? Will the prims be moving one way while the real parts are moving another? Many Avatars may develop severe back problems from this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Singer Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 is it sad that I can hear that list spoken with the proper growling haughty inflection full of disdain and bravado? #5 is definitely my favorite, to sound of Worf's brothers voice ...your feigned sarcasm brings honor to your house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Hickman Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Ansariel Hiller wrote: Sorry, but you miss the point that you can't actually change a protocol that breaks current clients only in favor of future extensions. Well, you can from a technical point of view, but not from the overall scope. You either have to take care you don't break any existing clients or you have to make a cut at a pre-defined point in time so everyone knows when the switch is gonna happen. What LL did is just the same as if today there would be made changes to IPv6 that will suddenly break IPv4 in some way and then claiming "Hey, you all know that IPv4 is reaching EOL soon, so who cares?". The change didn't break current clients, and that's my point.. it broke old clients that have been seperated from LLs development arm for quite some time. They've made it clear that they're not going to stop forward progress just to keep everything natively compatible with an old version that's no longer being developed. Even if the resulting conflicts were unintentional or unforseen, the fix is available and the core changes implemented to move things forward and not remain static were the right ones to be made. What the TPVs do or which protocols they cling to is certainly of concern to LL, but not to the point of actually letting them prevent or negate any future developments LL has planned for their own viewer... or their own grid. I expect more breakages like this one to happen as LL refines and builds onto V2, and V1 (and it's functionality) gets increasingly walled out in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venus Petrov Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 @Perrie: Prim boobies? BAH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blondin Linden Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 LL already told the TPVs months ago that they were going to cut off v1 search real soon now. Hey all, I just wanted to step in here and clear up this common misquote. What you stated above is not true. What was said was that once we have stopped supporting 1.23, all the various services V1 uses that V2 does not will be candidates to be phased out, and that therefore the TPVs should be planning how to transition to the same services that V2 uses. If you have specific questions, you should direct them towards OZ Linden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Venus Petrov wrote: @Perrie: Prim boobies? BAH! Agreed. Death by asphyxiation is perhaps my greatest fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kascha Matova Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Void Singer wrote: is it sad that I can hear that list spoken with the proper growling haughty inflection full of disdain and bravado? #5 is definitely my favorite, to sound of Worf's brothers voice ...your feigned sarcasm brings honor to your house. I think my favorite must, MUST be references to debugging as "software coddling the weak". LMA-O! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Singer Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I can actually put NAMES to most of the phrases... mostly better known one, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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