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Actually I was not making a point al all. Your inference is the same as  what we hear every day of our lives. The only conclusion one can draw from your argument is don't go out of the house don't talk to anyone just shut up and stay in your own world. We use voice in our groups a utility that Im blowed if I know why more people don't use. 90% of the time in these groups our conditions are not discussed. Its for friendship[,support and fellowship. We all have our own doctors that we use . As I said we don't use SL as a diagnostic tool but as a treatment tool. And part of these conditions perpetuates the loneliness that you are suggesting we should follow. Anyone that comes into second life to get advice or diagnostic evaluation is for sure on a dangerous path. I have in all the time I have been in SL have never met anyone such as that. Not to say they don't exist but I haven't met any. The folks I deal with daily are carers of patients mental health workers psychologists and people running the whole spectrum of mental illness. Its the friendship , the support and  above all the acknowledgement of being here right now that we gain strength from.

 

"Often people who are depressed and vulnerable suffer from the TMI condition (too much information)..They can't filter out what's personal and shouldn't be shared. "

Where is this based in fact. The Bipolar people I know myself included dontshare feelings or thoughts when they are depressed. Quite the opposite. That is why when people are suffering these illness they go for years undetected. In my case 14 years. I told know one of what was happening to me and if fact when the realization occurs that something is wrong one becomes ashamed and therefore shuts down further.

I am by no means cured. I am on the road to a better life stylethanks in part to the support and encouragement of kindred souls in here. That's what Im grateful for.

A poor young Psychology student started this thread. Why because he wants to help. He has chosen to spend his adult working life helping others cope. And in asking for help to begin that journey, what does he get...Read all of the above.

 

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Nacy Nightfire wrote: This is not a place people seek psychological help anymore then they visit a fast food restaurant to be cured of neurosis.  You mean that doesn't work? All these wasted ye

Well, of course the exception is if you have issues over not being breastfed enough McDonalds milkshakes as an infant..then I'll give you a pass.  :matte-motes-wink:

 "Actually I was not making a point al all. Your inference is the same as  what we hear every day of our lives. The only conclusion one can draw from your argument is don't go out of the house don't talk to anyone just shut up and stay in your own world."

This sounds like a point to me:

"Adding a diagnosis or prognosis, or a cause or a presumption of how this happened is the underpinning of all that is misunderstood or not understood about mental illness. What I’ve found is people think they know all about your condition, in fact, all mental health issues. How?.....By listening to other people with the same assumptions with no factual knowledge at all."

And please point to the part in my posting that I ever suggested that someone not talk to anyone and stay shut up in their own world?  There are not two options here - self isolation or Second Life- there is a great big world full of competent therapists, there are activities such as  charity work, physical exercise, meeting people face to face and other activities that takes one out of a world of depression into actual theraputic action.

""Often people who are depressed and vulnerable suffer from the TMI condition (too much information)..They can't filter out what's personal and shouldn't be shared. "Where is this based in fact. (now I'm quoting you quoting me)

The basis of fact is the many personal stories thrust upon me in my 3 1/2 year in SL. People who have passed me their contact names, their photographs, their facebook contact, their skype contact, their email address, etc., along with very personal stories without my ever asking for them.  I was, and continued to be quite unsettled by this behavior. (I prompt delete this kind of information and never share mine.)  Many of these people (not all) I would say are clinically depressed, a couple have told me they are bi-polar.  Again sharing very intimate details about their lives without being encouraged or prompted to do so. I did not "draw these people in".  But someone with nefarious intent could very easily do so.

"A poor young Psychology student started this thread. Why because he wants to help. He has chosen to spend his adult working life helping others cope." 

Poor young Psychology student?  Are you that student? How can we tell.  What's poor about the student?  Is the road to hell not paved with good intentions?  It's not enough just to mean well.

 

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I think you answered your own question in two ways.

I) by noting that my "tidbit" of information was based on empirical evidence, and that was mentioned in a prior post.

2) by the "TMI" of your posting as well as Danny's

  A depressed person, has, by the very nature of his or her condition, a disordered view of things.  I'm glad you, as well as Danny feel you've had some relief in your participation in SL. however I standby my my opinons, here.  

If a person has had brain surgery it doesn't qualify the person to perform brain surgery.

as to your remark:

"I don't think it's fair to maligne all the groups in SL that are trying to help people just because some people could take advantage of someone else's weaknesses." 

Is there any evidence I maligned all the groups in SL trying to help people?  Did you actually read my postings here? Let's step back in time together here and read an extract of what I wrote:

"I think its fantastic that there are groups and organizations in SL work with Autistic individuals, those with PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury.  I’m sure the responsible adults who control and monitor these sims are protecting and observing what goes so the participants can have a safe place to congregate and share activities with others who share the same challenges, that in itself is therapeutic.  However, and I could be wrong, I doubt psychological counseling happens within SL in these venues.   That would be problematic since it would mean encouraging people to reveal many RL details that could compromise their safety and security. "

 

 

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Aw.  That's cute Persephone.  Now you are role-playing a psychologist. 

Exactly my point.  Based on your years of personal experience with your own depression and emotional struggles, you now feel you are qualfied to diagnose, me,  a total stranger who's views you don't agree with,  as having a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Or, better yet,  you are just taking a cheap shot because have no other position to argue, since mine is so well defended.

You would hurt my feelings more if you used your magical powers to put a spell on me.

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I wasn't diagnosing you. I was pointing out the rather hostile, combative nature of your posts in this thread in what I hoped was a humorous way.  I had no idea I might hurt your feelings, since you seem by your posts to be pretty "tough-minded or unemotional", one might even say "insensitive". 

I also didn't feel it was necessary to wade through your other posts looking for information with which I could try to make cheap, irrelevant digs at you. 

To each his own, though.

Have a nice day. :smileyhappy:

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Thank you for your humor.  And I want you to know that my feelings are not at all hurt, because I'm well aware that I do not suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and I have the maturity to express and hold to my own point of view and allow people to have theirs. 

And,  I, also,  was joking  when referring to the "spell" since I noticed you authored a posting about witchcraft.  

I AM "tough minded" but not insensitve or unemotional, quite the opposite.  And I am  rational and tenacious about issues I am passionate about, like this one.  Not for myself personally, but for people I feel could potentially get harmed.

You might have waded thru or even READ my postings on this topic, not to make digs, but to understand my point of view, without any requirement that you be persuaded to change your own equally stubborn point of view.   It's pretty clear from your remarks you didn't bother to do that.

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Dear Nancy,

I agree with the others on this post, although you are looking at others saying that they are diagnosing others in SL when clearly we are not, you have made diagnoses on these people without even understanding their  conditions.

I have been in SL a long time myself and the cry for support groups is highly sought by, ( have you even stopped to talk to these poeple, go see there groups ?). I started a support group for Bipolar for careers and sufferes and its the best thing i did, i have learnt over the time how to look at these illness from another set of eyes. My partner in rl is suffers from this condition and i was lost on how to support him, no one can guide you on that on the outside world as good as people who are living it. Ppple with these condistions find it hard to go out of there comfort zones as you make it sound so easy to do. All i can say is that wiht the help and courage from these people sharing their feelings wiht me and the group i was able to assist my partner in his illness , give him the support as i could see it from his eyes, and read the signs of when the big crash was happening, and it did, i had to admitt him or lose him. I basically saved his life. I really belive that if i wasnt aware of the illness or know the signs he would be dead.

Now as he is recovering and Alive How can people helping people weather in real world or a virtual world be so wrong.

 

 

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Nacy Nightfire wrote:

If a person has had brain surgery it doesn't qualify the person to perform brain surgery.


It seems to me you are missing the point all together. The title and subject of this thread is about support, not diagnosis or treatment. Just as a person that has to deal with having gone through or are facing brain surgery can, and is usually encouraged to, join a support group where people who have gone through it or are also facing it can talk about their experience and maybe provide some comfort to each other in their time of need, so can people with psychological disorders.

The fact that you choose to twist the subject matter to conform to your own argumentative needs reflects directly on your character, or lack thereof. Add to that the propensity to use someone's topic in another thread, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, to belittle them, whether you meant it as a joke or not, exposes you as being spiteful and belligerent. Really the only one you belittle is yourself.

...Dres

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I agree with Nacy that laypeople shouldn't role play therapists in SL, but I can also see the benefits of self-help groups. Many people don't have the opportunity to access such groups at their RL place of residence, and in case of conditions like social anxiety or social phobia it might not be possible for them to attend group meetings in RL. SL can certainly be of help in these cases, although there is always the risk that people with these kind of problems feel encouraged and justified to use SL as a reality escape.

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Ah, Ishy.  Now finally. A person with a rational reaction and point of view and a pure hearted desire to express it. 

Group dynamics is a wonderful thing.  Until Persephone sent me a  link to a Narcissistic Personality Disorder clinic and Danny called me an "a**hole", no one piled in on the to the topic and they joined in to  brand me spiteful, and mean...what positive group therapy!  What fun for you all (not Ishy...don't mean you)!  Wheeee!!! That must feel great! (I'm guessing since it amuses me.)

Of course, everyone please assume that my heart is cold as a lump of coal, and I contributed with malicious intent (which I did not. However I will not be able to convince you of as your minds are made up! :matte-motes-agape:"  But people WITH nefarious intent certainly can infiltrate your group and your lives via Second Life so called therapy. 

You may feel I was out of line (which those who hurled insult were free to say politely), however as I understand it its my right to post to whatever topic is begun here.  No one owns a post, as I understand it.  If it was inpolite to "hijack" this posters topic, as claimed, then calling me an a**hole isn't on topic either...no one is prohibited from IMing me inworld to call me anything they like.

Like any ordinary brave soul, I stand my opinion, having some RL and SL experience under my aged belt, therapy in SL can be a dangerous thing for many reasons elucidated ad nauseum above in my posts.

I leave you on this topic with a repeat of what I already said: to mean well isn't enough.

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What I find amusing is that you would consider the only person that says they agree with you to be the only rational one here. Even though what you said and what she was agreeing with wasn't the topic of the post to begin with.

What I also find amusing is that you would use the tactic of dismissing people's opinions as "group dynamics" so you can continue thinking that your opinion is the only one that matters. What fun for you! That must feel great.

If the topic was indeed people seeking therapy in SL, I'll say right now, that I would agree that it most certainly would be a dangerous position in which to put yourself, for reasons which you've already stated. But the questions asked in the OP were about support, not therapy. You might want to read it again.

Now if you want to discuss the benefits verses the dangers of participating in a support group, that might questionably suit the topic. It would also be relevant in RL as well as SL and might be an interesting subject, if you could except the fact that not everyone is banding together just to trash you by disagreeing with you.

I'm not in agreement with the posting of the narcissist link or you being called what you were called, but I do stand by the opinions I personally expressed in my post to you. I don't believe I called into question the temperature of your heart or your ability to feel compassion.

It's obvious to me this is something you feel strongly about, but that doesn't mean you have to twist words and belittle people to get your point across. That kind of behavior does not make you a "brave soul". As you said yourself: to mean well isn't enough.

...Dres

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What distinction are you making when you refer to therapy and support as two separate entities? Can you give me a RL equivalent of what you would consider "psychological support" which doesn't entail the intervention, or at least supervision of a professional?

Being pals. Listening to one another's problems. Offering advice. Making sympathetic clucking sounds whilst a friend lets off steam. To me these are the only actions which could be considered "support" in a very generic sense - we can stick the adjective "psycholgical" in front of it, I suppose, but I don't think this very natural, instinctive and age-old form of human interaction is what is being discussed here.

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I) If you read that post clearly, Ishy DIDN'T agree with me.  But she rationally and respectfully responded with her own viewpoint.  You are so heated about this you aren't reading these posts objectively.  I'm not dismissing peoples OPINIONS as the result of the group dynamic, just "lets all pile on" hostility towards me, personally and the opinon that I am, in fact, a spiteful "a**hole" of bad character.  Sorry, I just can't agree with that  :matte-motes-bored:.

2) Your second paragraph makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm glad, you too, are amused.

3) Support in many cases IS Therapy.  They blend together...I will quote from the original OP:

 "3. In Your opinion what is the role of virtual therapy (more precisely the role of a virtual support group as in Second Life) in one's healing process in general?

4) The people who are trashing me (including, yourself), are doing just that.  Their opinons, which they are entitled to and can't be taken away by what I or anyone else here posts.

5) By all means, you are welcome, yourself, to start a thread about the pros and cons of virtual therapy.  At this point I might be afraid to contribute since you would OWN the thread.  You actually did post to this thread in an indirect fascetious manner on 5/16, right in "lock step" with my own sarcasm.  That would have been a great opportunity for you to respond in a thoughtful manner about your fully fleshed-out personal view on the topic, or in clear support of other posters here. 

6) Don't twist MY words.  You already did that by suggesting I was claiming that support groups in SL were diagnosing people.  I claim to be brave, not due to  "twist[ing] words and belittle[ing] people to get your point across." I was directly pointing to the bravery of sticking to beliefs despite being called a Narcissist, and A**shole.

7) You wrote:

"The fact that you choose to twist the subject matter to conform to your own argumentative needs reflects directly on your character, or lack thereof. Add to that the propensity to use someone's topic in another thread, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, to belittle them, whether you meant it as a joke or not, exposes you as being spiteful and belligerent. Really the only one you belittle is yourself."

and now you write : " I don't believe I called into question the temperature of your heart or your ability to feel compassion."

I appreciate your own bravery to stand by such opinons you personally expressed in your post to me.  Misguided as they were, and based on twisting my words and intent as they were.

And, finally, there are no rules against referring to another posting on another thread, this is not against the rules of the forum.  We do not exist here on each thread in imposed isolation.  Referring to the my comment about the other posters post ASSUMES alot about my intent.  Are you putting your own spin on that topic? 

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

What distinction are you making when you refer to therapy and support as two separate entities? Can you give me a RL equivalent of what you would consider "psychological support" which doesn't entail the intervention, or at least supervision of a professional?

Um... off the top of my head... Alcoholics Anonymous, although it encompasses more than just psychological support.


Carole Franizzi wrote:

Being pals. Listening to one another's problems. Offering advice. Making sympathetic clucking sounds whilst a friend lets off steam. To me these are the only actions which could be considered "support" in a very generic sense - we can stick the adjective "psycholgical" in front of it, I suppose, but I don't think this very natural, instinctive and age-old form of human interaction is what is being discussed here.

Isn't that what a support group is? I would think there's a distinction between a psychological support group and a group therapy situation. Am I mistaken?

...Dres

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Tell me where did I call you anything....that was a quote from a famous psychologist look it up. It must be grand to have such an ego and be so self indulgent. A few days ago I again tried to take my own life ...Thinking that my selfworth was climbing I was feeling that maybe you were right maybe I don't need anyone's help in here and Real life.....Perhaps all I need is conversation and take a walk a day and who needs meds because apparently ....All I need is to keep listening to people like you....you don't have opinions you have ideology you have structures that you believe all people must fit into.. You didn't get me this time though..But maybe next..

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

What distinction are you making when you refer to therapy and support as two separate entities? Can you give me a RL equivalent of what you would consider "psychological support" which doesn't entail the intervention, or at least supervision of a professional?

Um... off the top of my head... Alcoholics Anonymous, although it encompasses more than just psychological support.

Carole writes:

Well, actually AA states very clearly that it is NOT a medical organisation of any sort and in its pamphlet thingy it specifies that AA offers the friendship of recovered alcoholics who encourage others by their example. It makes absolutely no claim to be a psychological support organisation. I get the feeling that the term "psychological" is being bandied about willy-nilly here. Psychology is a science. You need a degree plus years of monitored "apprenticeship" before a psychotherapist can take on patients. In the UK it takes about 9 years to be fully qualified, I believe.

 

Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

Being pals. Listening to one another's problems. Offering advice. Making sympathetic clucking sounds whilst a friend lets off steam. To me these are the only actions which could be considered "support" in a very generic sense - we can stick the adjective "psycholgical" in front of it, I suppose, but I don't think this very natural, instinctive and age-old form of human interaction is what is being discussed here.

Isn't that what a support group is? I would think there's a distinction between a psychological support group and a group therapy situation. Am I mistaken?

...Dres

Carole writes:

A psychological support group? I imagine you mean a group therapy type environment run by a psychotherapist. I can think of a RL example, actually, in which a member of my family is receiving support for issues of a very trying nature - but actual psychologists are the ones doing the supporting. On the other hand, a "lay" support group would be a group of people who'd shared a similar life experience and who wanted to offer understanding and a place to discuss whatever topic it is to others in the same boat. If you stick the word "psychological" in the label, you need a professional for it to be functional and, I'd have thought, even legal. Which brings us back to square one - how do you do anything linked to health - mental or otherwise - within SL, unless RL identity and credentials are made available? There may be oodles of non-psychological support groups around - certainly less "risky", as their objectives are much more modest - however, even in this case, I'd be wary of opening my heart to people who might just be roleplaying.

I'm not digging my heels in over the semantics just to be awkward - the title of the OP includes the word "psychological" and I assumed we were talking about therapy all along.
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Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

If a person has had brain surgery it doesn't qualify the person to perform brain surgery.


It seems to me you are missing the point all together. The title and subject of this thread is about support, not diagnosis or treatment.

 

Carole:

Thought my memory was going haywire so I checked the OP again:

"I am a psychology student doing a small ethnographically project about psychological support groups and therapeutic options in SL.

 If you have any experience with different psychological support groups or any other kind of therapeutic activity in SL and if it is no trouble I would like You to freely answer few questions about the psychological support in Second Life. You can answer as much of them as You want. Answering would help me a lot in my work **Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://secondlife.i.lithium.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" alt=":smileyhappy:" title="Smiley Happy" />.

 

1. Please describe briefly the functioning of the support group You attend (How exactly is the support provided? Do you have virtual gatherings? How often the gatherings are held? How does the gathering look like? Etc.).

2. What are Your relationships with psychology, are You a patient, professional therapist, volunteer etc.?

3. In Your opinion what is the role of virtual therapy (more precisely the role of a virtual support group as in Second Life) in one's healing process in general?

4. What are the flaws of virtual support groups, what are the benefits?

5. If You are a sufferer, do You attend any other forms of psychological therapy?

6. If You are a patient how does your therapist\psychologist regard to Second Life?"



The OP was most definitely about psychotherapy.
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I had no problem with your posts in the beginning of this thread, in fact I agreed with most of what you were saying. It was at post 27 that I thought you crossed a line and started behaving as if people were attacking you. Thereby you having to "be brave" and stand up for you opinion as if it were fact (you even said it was a fact) and could not be disputed. This, plus your tone was, as Persephone put it, rather hostile and combative.

Oh and this:


Nacy Nightfire wrote:

7) You wrote:

"
The fact that you choose to twist the subject matter to conform to your own argumentative needs reflects directly on your character, or lack thereof. Add to that the propensity to use someone's topic in another thread, that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, to belittle them, whether you meant it as a joke or not, exposes you as being spiteful and belligerent. Really the only one you belittle is yourself
."

and now you write : " I don't believe I called into question the temperature of your heart or your ability to feel compassion."


What's your point? I was referencing two separate issues in those two separate statements you quoted.

I have the feeling we agree on more things than not where the subject matter is concerned. My issue is with the way you conducted yourself in arguing your point. By stating your opinions as fact, using Danny and Persephone's heartfelt posts to further your own argument with a rather combative and dismissive tone and, yes, using subject matter from another thread to mock someone rather than simply stating your opinion. While that's not against TOS, it's just juvenile and, in my opinion, bad form.

This is just my opinion about your behavior in this thread and having said it, I'll leave it alone.

...Dres

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Carole Franizzi wrote:


The OP was most definitely about psychotherapy.

Yeah, but not the administering of it in SL. It's my belief that the questions were about therapy in conjunction with SL use and "(more precisely the role of a virtual support group as in Second Life)".

Maybe that's just me.

...Dres

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

What distinction are you making when you refer to therapy and support as two separate entities? Can you give me a RL equivalent of what you would consider "psychological support" which doesn't entail the intervention, or at least supervision of a professional?

Um... off the top of my head... Alcoholics Anonymous, although it encompasses more than just psychological support.

Carole writes:

Well, actually AA states very clearly that it is NOT a medical organisation of any sort and in its pamphlet thingy it specifies that AA offers the friendship of recovered alcoholics who encourage others by their example. It makes absolutely no claim to be a psychological support organisation. I get the feeling that the term "psychological" is being bandied about willy-nilly here. Psychology is a science. You need a degree plus years of monitored "apprenticeship" before a psychotherapist can take on patients. In the UK it takes about 9 years to be fully qualified, I believe.

 

Dresden Ceriano wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

Being pals. Listening to one another's problems. Offering advice. Making sympathetic clucking sounds whilst a friend lets off steam. To me these are the only actions which could be considered "support" in a very generic sense - we can stick the adjective "psycholgical" in front of it, I suppose, but I don't think this very natural, instinctive and age-old form of human interaction is what is being discussed here.

Isn't that what a support group is? I would think there's a distinction between a psychological support group and a group therapy situation. Am I mistaken?

...Dres

Carole writes:

A psychological support group? I imagine you mean a group therapy type environment run by a psychotherapist. I can think of a RL example, actually, in which a member of my family is receiving support for issues of a very trying nature - but actual psychologists are the ones doing the supporting. On the other hand, a "lay" support group would be a group of people who'd shared a similar life experience and who wanted to offer understanding and a place to discuss whatever topic it is to others in the same boat. If you stick the word "psychological" in the label, you need a professional for it to be functional and, I'd have thought, even legal. Which brings us back to square one - how do you do anything linked to health - mental or otherwise - within SL, unless RL identity and credentials are made available? There may be oodles of non-psychological support groups around - certainly less "risky", as their objectives are much more modest - however, even in this case, I'd be wary of opening my heart to people who might just be roleplaying.

I'm not digging my heels in over the semantics just to be awkward - the title of the OP includes the word "psychological" and I assumed we were talking about therapy all along.

I understand your point and stand corrected.

I took psychological support group to mean a lay persons' support group for sufferers of psychological problems. But, your right, putting psychological in front of it does change things. In which case, they would, indeed, both be the same thing.

The only way I could see conducting actual group therapy in SL is if there was a real life arrangement first, where everyone is known to be who they are and which would be closely monitored by professionals in some closed off group.

Thank you for enlightening me... Dres

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I think its time to put this topic to bed.  But its not up for me to decide, it's just a suggestion and a personal opinion.

But, I will say I read post 27 over very carefully.  The only issue where "fact" came into play was the challenge/question (not by me) about where my facts came from on the issue of vulnerable people with psychological issues giving out too much personal information.  In otherwards not "filtering" appropriately.

I responded by saying the fact comes my own experiences here in SL.  Although I, myself, didn't originally describe it as "fact", I was responding in context to the question.  I think we all  come to our own conclusions here in SL, many which are incorrect and biased by our own beliefs, but I've had the actual experiece of people I've met and known in SL who are clearly e depressed, or have expressed to me they suffer from bipolar disease, who have sent me their contact information, personal photographs, and other details of their RL.  I think it can be qualified as fact.  (Again, I do not solicit this information, and if I get a heads-up its coming my way I insist they NOT give me that info, and if sent anyway, I delete it.  But I really do worry about the welfare of these people and the potential problems they may run into in SL.

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