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Banned from using items after leaving honest MP feedback


Semirans
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I wanted to purchase a particularly cute mesh outfit on the MP, but was concerned about previous issues with rigging on Mesh skirts.  I asked in the seller's Group and also posted a request on the FB page for the designer asking either for a demo (which they rarely provide) or for feedback from anyone that might have bought the outfit.  I waited and few days (with posts on the FB group continuing for other items) and finally decided to take the plunge sine the dress was so cute and I had hoped something had changed in rigging over the last 18 months.  The skirt flips completely up when you sit.  I contacted the designer's inworld support and got no response.  My FB post was removed.  I messaged support again and waited a bit before leaving feedback for the MP purchase.

I then got a response saying that a refund had been issued (which I have not gotten) and asking me to remove the negative review.  I am torn about this.  My review was honest. 

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if that was a certain well known full perm creator, i can suggest a workaround. It doesn't always work but is worth a try. The said FP creator don't provide demos. However, if you search for this particular item you are interested in using the same wording as the original listing (for example "harem boho pants"), then in your search results choose price range 0-1L$ to only catch the demos, there is a high probability you will find the demo of the item you are looking for offered by the creators who already bought the original item from the said FP creator. This way you can test the mesh and the rigging and the fit, and only then decide whether to buy the original FP item.

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I got a reply, and the refund.  The designer says that all mesh skirts in SL work this way.  I will update my feedback to reflect that I did get a reply.  Ty Elvina for your suggestion, I've spent days making Demos for the mesh items that I sell when the original maker doesn't provide them and sometimes even when they do so that customers don't have to go hunting for demos. I wonder how useful the feedback is on the MP anyway. As someone that is unable to make mesh blanks, I am at the mercy of people that can.  It seems unwise to alienate them and lose access to the ability to sell what I have bought.

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6 hours ago, Semirans said:

...The designer says that all mesh skirts in SL work this way...

To some extent they are right - when a skirt is rigged to the leg bones it will maintain that relationship with them as the leg moves - including when you sit down. They have no "gravity effect", unlike the old style flexi skirts that had the opposite problem of gracefully settling towards the ground.... through your legs and body, resulting in more than one "unexpected overexposure" and the introduction of "glitch pants." 

If the skirts position when standing is close to the leg the rigged behavior is not going to look unnatural if the bone movement results in 100% of that movement transferring to the skirt. A fuller skirt standing further away from the leg in an upright posture is going to stay there as you sit down if it's rigged this way - giving the entire room a perfect upskirt flash, like you were wearing a full hooped crinoline and were sitting on the back of the hoops.

It is possible to avoid the worst of this but it's a compromise. In oversimplified terms you do it by taking away a fraction of the "bone weight" applied to the skirt from the leg bones and applying it to the pelvis. It is not perfect, because if you were to take away 50% of the weight this way, the skirt would only move half as far as the leg does - you're introducing a limit in leg movement at which the leg will catch up with the skirt and clip through it and it will never eliminate the "fly up effect" completely.

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I guess I learned my lesson. I am now banned from using the designer's items. I have been called an idiot and a moron.  I guess I can just throw out the 60+ mesh blanks that I bought from this store and remember NEVER to leave anything less than 5 stars. (I removed my negative feedback and replaced it with a neutral 3 star comment about the rigging after getting a reply and refund from the designer)

None of you have any reason to believe me. I have the screen shot from the FB messenger program and I am awaiting confirmation from the in gmae support person for the designer since the tone and the wording of the message is not at all professional.

Edited by Semirans
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  • Semirans changed the title to Banned from using items after leaving honest MP feedback
7 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

We have no reason to disbelieve you either, it's a common enough story.

 

So what do I do now?  Almost every mesh items I own is from this designer, 1000's of lindens and hours and hours of work making items.  I'm in shock. When I said leaving honest feedback might make it so I can't use the items, I was mostly joking.  When she refunded me I left 3 stars and the following comment on the item:  

Limitation of SL Rigging

Posted March 12, 2020 by Semirans 3 stars

Seller resolved issue regarding skirt draping.

Edited by Semirans
clarification
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In world support replied within 5 mins of me updating the garment feedback to reflect that I was banned from using their items for posting the review.  They confirmed that indeed I was dishonest for leaving the "negative" (3 stars) review that said "seller resolved issue regarding skirt draping"  So I am out over 30k lindens in items that I bought over the last 2 years in retaliation for me posting the HONEST review.  So remember kiddies never leave anything except a 5 star or maybe better yet don't say anything at all.

I am uncertain if updating the review in light of them taking away my license to use the items I bought YEARS ago is allowed, but I think it is important to say that I left honest feedback and was retaliated against for doing so.  I think there should be some recourse for buyers of licenses, that do not in any way violate the TOS, to be able to retain the ability to use the items they have paid for. So it seems that the makers should add to their TOS "I may remove your right to use this for any reason or for no reason at all"

 

Mods, if this thread has gone past the standards, please remove it.

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7 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

It is possible to avoid the worst of this but it's a compromise. In oversimplified terms you do it by taking away a fraction of the "bone weight" applied to the skirt from the leg bones and applying it to the pelvis. It is not perfect, because if you were to take away 50% of the weight this way, the skirt would only move half as far as the leg does - you're introducing a limit in leg movement at which the leg will catch up with the skirt and clip through it and it will never eliminate the "fly up effect" completely.

If we only had dynamic bones and colliders...

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Receiving a refund is no reason to remove a bad review.

It does not matter what the circumstances are. If your opinion of the product is poor, getting your money back should not change your review as reviews are intended to help others determine what the product is like. The actual rating (1-5 stars) is extremely subjective and shouldn't be looked at too closely. What you have to say about the product is important.

If a piece of clothing has no demo (and I was still thinking about buying it blind), seeing a review telling me that it has rigging issues is very valuable information.

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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Your license to use your purchased items can't be lifted, so keep using those. Once the transaction is done, licensing applies and its final , which means things can't be changed at a later time. Find a more transparent designer who makes items you want to work on but don't throw away your older products. The right to use them is unlinked to your current condition of banned buyer, which basically removes your right to buy any more items from them from the date of your ban on. It can't be retroactive. 

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Ftr. what this seller is trying to do to you, and saying, in the whole "your license is revoked", is a huge load of horse manure, and you should ignore it.

I do support sellers and creators, of course, but any that would act this asinine (and it's not that uncommon) doesn't deserve support.  As a previous poster said, that "license to use" can't be revoked because you hurt their widdle feelings by being honest in a review (and because not ALL skirts in sl work that way, like the seller claimed, it's dependent upon type of skirt and the creator's ability to rig....that too is a load of horse manure). If your review was over the top, or broke TOS, the seller could've had it removed. I have no reason to doubt that your review was well within TOS and that the seller is behaving like a petulant little child

Going forward, I wouldn't buy any more of that seller's items, of course, but I would continue to use what I'd already bought under the license I'd already bought them, if I felt the need or desire to (if I was super mad, I might not, lol, or might put them up for a bit while I stewed in my own disappointment with the seller, lol). I buy full perm mesh stuff all the time, because I can't make my own mesh to save my life. I've run into a seller with similar behavior before (I did leave a review too, that item was removed form MP, replaced sometime later and all neg. reviews went with it, mine too was a 3 star review)...still hasn't stopped me from using what I've bought in the past, but sure as hell stopped me dead in my tracks for buying new stuff from them. The seller makes good stuff for the most part too, so I was disappointed in the entire thing. My lost sales might only be a drop in the bucket to that seller (even though when I find a seller I like, I buy ALL their stuff that I like, lol) but it means something to me, so I let me wallet do the talking. 

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My review has now been removed. Thank you for the info about the license. I couldn't find anything that spells that out, so I was erring on the side of caution.  I take the designer's rights VERY seriously since it is important to protect them as well.

Edited by Semirans
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I've bought a few fullperm mesh items in the past - not because I want to use them to make products but because it's often the only way to get my hands on mod-perm mesh to texture as I want to wear it without having to just "get close enough" to my vision of the outfit I'm trying to create with the options scripted into it and because I totally suck at rigging.

 

But I'm hearing a lot more of this kind of tale of folks being such wondrous  bell-ends, and while I know the plural of anecdote is not data it has made me determined to not suck at rigging any more.

 

To Hades with the whole boiling of 'em. If somebody makes exactly what I want, then I'll continue to buy it but otherwise I'll darn well make exactly what I want.

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16 hours ago, Semirans said:

In world support replied within 5 mins of me updating the garment feedback to reflect that I was banned from using their items for posting the review.  They confirmed that indeed I was dishonest for leaving the "negative" (3 stars) review that said "seller resolved issue regarding skirt draping"  So I am out over 30k lindens in items that I bought over the last 2 years in retaliation for me posting the HONEST review.  So remember kiddies never leave anything except a 5 star or maybe better yet don't say anything at all.

I am uncertain if updating the review in light of them taking away my license to use the items I bought YEARS ago is allowed, but I think it is important to say that I left honest feedback and was retaliated against for doing so.  I think there should be some recourse for buyers of licenses, that do not in any way violate the TOS, to be able to retain the ability to use the items they have paid for. So it seems that the makers should add to their TOS "I may remove your right to use this for any reason or for no reason at all"

 

Mods, if this thread has gone past the standards, please remove it.

This merchant is notorious for their business practices. It is the one i immediately thought of reading your OP, and it is the one i was talking about in my response above. You are not the first victim of theirs, and you will not be the last. (their name rhymes with "smelly", and that is what their business practices are)

I suggest you spread the word among your friends and anybody who'd listen (well, not on this forum, obviously). They are already (in)famous, but maybe some people are still unaware... What i find incredible, is their fantastic ability to remove all possible reviews that are less than 5 stars. This ability seems to know no limits, and sometimes i even think that a Linden is actually working with them and helping them in their quest. I have been monitoring this store for years, reading all their new reviews, and i have seen reviews disappearing that had absolutely no reason for removal, including my own (being a merchant myself, i would think i know how to write a proper review)... It is outrageous the way they go about this entire review thing, and the fact that they are hellbent on not offering demos is not helping either.

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I wish I could learn to do mesh. It is a skill that I don't have the ability to accomplish.  I'm a good seamstress IRL, but doing even the most basic things in PS are agony for me. My intellect is not set up for it or for programming, but if you want me to power up a reactor, I'm your girl!

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On 3/11/2020 at 2:37 PM, Semirans said:

I wanted to purchase a particularly cute mesh outfit on the MP, but was concerned about previous issues with rigging on Mesh skirts.  I asked in the seller's Group and also posted a request on the FB page for the designer asking either for a demo (which they rarely provide) or for feedback from anyone that might have bought the outfit.  I waited and few days (with posts on the FB group continuing for other items) and finally decided to take the plunge sine the dress was so cute and I had hoped something had changed in rigging over the last 18 months.  The skirt flips completely up when you sit.  I contacted the designer's inworld support and got no response.  My FB post was removed.  I messaged support again and waited a bit before leaving feedback for the MP purchase.

I then got a response saying that a refund had been issued (which I have not gotten) and asking me to remove the negative review.  I am torn about this.  My review was honest. 

One quickly learns that honest and helpful reviews meant in all good spirit is usually not appreciated and some unscrupulous merchants will return that action with very hostile actions of their own. The review system is flawed anyway , as only 5 stars exist and 1 stars because people just won't rate otherwise because they are either extremely pleased, or pissed off on the other end. Most people don't rate as a rule, unless the item is free and they encourage that by rating quite a bit.

Trying a demo is a good thing to do, but this isn't always true. I tried a demo of a jacket that seemed great, even though I wondered why it included an AO or overide pose - the avatar holding up a box. Everything seemed fine until after purchasing the main item, holes were found in the jacket - the holes being hidden by the AO in the demo. Better to try then not, but it's not guaranteed. In most cases, leave your review up and get your money back - help others make informed decisions. And just don't rate in general. If someone isn't willing to get accurate feedback and reviews - and only want praise and worship... that's not fair so just don't participate at all.

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On 3/13/2020 at 10:59 AM, Semirans said:

I wish I could learn to do mesh. It is a skill that I don't have the ability to accomplish.  I'm a good seamstress IRL, but doing even the most basic things in PS are agony for me. My intellect is not set up for it or for programming, but if you want me to power up a reactor, I'm your girl!

Learn Marvelous Designer for seamstress-ing. If I can be a seamstress (in Sansar), having never done it before MD, you can too. Learning mesh can be done as well. I'm sure you can do it if you really want to.
The challenge is getting the information you will need to get the items into SL and making it work

Edited by entity0x
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  • 5 weeks later...
On 3/13/2020 at 12:42 PM, Semirans said:

My review has now been removed. Thank you for the info about the license. I couldn't find anything that spells that out, so I was erring on the side of caution.  I take the designer's rights VERY seriously since it is important to protect them as well.

You are well within your rights to use the items you already purchased under the original agreement at the time of purchase. They can't stop you from doing so. In theory they could stop you from buying more items from them but if they don't, the stated terms on the MP are what apply, not any personal IMs and such.

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It is very sketchy that they request a negative review be taken down in return for a "refund". We do have a lot of people buying products from our store having not read the description properly, not knowing how to work the item or thinking that the item was something else entirely different and of course they then leave a negative review... we actually appreciate having people highlight legitimate problems though so that we can fix it rather than have to deal with 1 stars.

However there is nothing to prevent them from blocking you which would prevent you from buying their items in future. It is just the unfortunate thing. BUT the same goes that they can "refund" or say that they have refunded you all they want and there is nothing to prevent you from continuing to use the item which you already have as LL will not remove the item from your inventory. This is rather frustrating though when we have customers spamming 1 stars and demanding refunds on a fully functioning product, "Give me refund and I'll remove the review"...  There needs to a be a flag for both way rating abuse.

Edited by Till Vaher
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This is one of many examples of how ban powers can be used by unethical people to cover up their tracks.
I was also 'banned' from a store for leaving a very fair and honest review, and after refusing a refund in order to take it down.
After all, I wasn't doing it to get my money back, I wanted the 'software' improved so I could continue using it.

They were angry with my review, and even went so far as to try to publicly shame me on their private blog that noone reads.

Since then I've come to realize those who ask for feedback really only want praise and worship, and not a real honest assessment of the work.
I appreciate good feedback myself though, and have always accommodated my customers who had concerns, and have even just customized some products for them specifically to meet their needs.
Legit creators always seeking to improve themselves will appreciate any feedback, snobs and scumbags won't, and will use ban tools to ensure  you remain quiet.

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11 hours ago, entity0x said:

This is one of many examples of how ban powers can be used by unethical people to cover up their tracks.
I was also 'banned' from a store for leaving a very fair and honest review, and after refusing a refund in order to take it down.
After all, I wasn't doing it to get my money back, I wanted the 'software' improved so I could continue using it.

They were angry with my review, and even went so far as to try to publicly shame me on their private blog that noone reads.

Since then I've come to realize those who ask for feedback really only want praise and worship, and not a real honest assessment of the work.
I appreciate good feedback myself though, and have always accommodated my customers who had concerns, and have even just customized some products for them specifically to meet their needs.
Legit creators always seeking to improve themselves will appreciate any feedback, snobs and scumbags won't, and will use ban tools to ensure  you remain quiet.

 

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